A question about the different bike troops for DA

[CiaphasCaine]

I recently decided to get back into 40k and decided to pick up the good ole green marines. I always liked them but found their last codex lacking. Anyways I come here asking about the standard bikers and the new knights. I plan to run a deathwing ravenwing army led by azrael so they are troops. I want my bikers to be my shooters and obviously my terminators for melee. I was looking at the knights and couldnt see any actual advantage they had over standard bikers as far as shooting goes. I can take a 3 man squad of standard bikers with bolt guns on their bikes and i can give 2 of them melta guns which is better in every way over the plasma talon with the exception of twin linked. Am i trying to force the knights into playing a role they are not designed to fill? I see they have 2 attacks on their profile so are they more of a melee unit? Does the grenade launcher really make up for the points difference and less hitting power in ranged?

[Nabterayl]

A meltagun is not better than a plasma talon in every way. A meltagun is stronger and doesn't Get Hot!, true, but it gets 1 shot out to 12". A plasma talon gets 1 shot out to 18", or 2 shots out to 9". Also recall that Twin-Linked not only makes the plasma talon more accurate, it also makes them significantly less likely to Get Hot!. And don't forget that Black Knights can take a Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, which is a pretty badass utility gun.

[CiaphasCaine]

I was unaware it had 2 shots, I thought it only had 1 attack i dont know where I got that Idea. Thank you for clearing that up. They dont look terrible next to the generic bikers anymore

[Nabterayl]

I'm far from a Dark Angels expert, but I think your instinct that the Ravenwing is primarily about shooting is right. Just two very obvious ways to do that: the Standard of Devastation is much more versatile with bike-mounted bolters, and the RGL's rad charge attack will generally benefit boltguns more than plasma talons.

[CiaphasCaine]

I have another question about bike squads and rather then make a new thread I will just ask it here. I do not have my 6th edition rule book yet since my FLGS was sold out and it has been a long time since I played. Can a ravewing attack squad shoot their handweapons and their twin linked boltgun on their bikes in the same turn?

[Wolfshade]

I don't have the Codex Dark Angels with me, but I would feel happy with "No" only monsterous creatures and vehicles can fire more than one weapon at once

[CiaphasCaine]

Yeah I figured that it wouldnt work that way. Thanks

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't have the Codex Dark Angels with me, but I would feel happy with "No" only monsterous creatures and vehicles can fire more than one weapon at once

A bike can fire one weapon per rider. Thus, a standard bike can fire one weapon, but an attack bike can fire two.

[navihawk11]

Can a ravewing attack squad shoot their handweapons and their twin linked boltgun on their bikes in the same turn?

It is one weapon per rider. An attack bike can shoot the heavy weapon and the twin-linked bolter. A single bike can shoot the hand weapon or the twin-linked bolters.

[FortheEmperor!]

Ravenwing Black Knights are a fantastic support unit. Like regular RW bikers, they have teleport homers, but the grenade launcher is the thing! They can soften up a target for another unit to shoot or assault. I played against some paladins yesterday and after the rad grenade hit, my other plasma guns were doubling out the 2-wound paladins that were now toughess 3. However, the Black Knights work well in assault to, with their rending hammers and Hit and Run. I only tried Hit and Run once, and I rolled a 6 so it did not work. They were still the stars of the game and my real workhorses. They finished off several paladins (assault and shooting) and killed a Dread Knight with overwatch shots!

I also had 2 tactical marines fighting for their lives on my objective. They were inches from death by an un-hurt solo paladin with a thunder hammer. One of my tactical marines had a multi-melta. When the solo-din announced his charge I said, "I will kill him with my multi-melta in overwatch." And sure enough...I DID!!! We both got a good laugh out of that! :-D

[KTRyan]

Lets do an across the line match up between regular bike and black knights. We have a difference of 15 points per model, for 15 points you get +1 S, A, and Ld, you get skilled rider, your bolters are upgraded to plasma guns, and you get rending.

Now with out the new brb you may be unaware that skilled rider not only helps with dangerous terrain but also upgrades your 5+ Jink Save (a cover save you get as long as you've moved) to a 4+ Jink Save. That alone is huge, as long as you've moved you get a 4+ cover and if you turbo boost it goes to a 3+.

In close combat you're S5 rending, 2 base attacks, +1 for pistol CCW, on the charge thats 4 attacks each + hammer of wrath. Now add in the effects of the grenade launcher and you have one of the most effective close combat units in the game. To that add hit and run...

In the shooting phase you have twin-linked, rapid firing plasma guns. Against power armor, terminator armor, monstrous creatures and AV 12 or less your the scariest thing on the board. Also don't sell short a grenade launcher that can lower enemies stats, -1 T can have huge effects in shooting and CC, keep insta-death in mind.

Black Knights are one of the nastiest units in the game to charge. Taking over watch fire from twin linked plasma guns is awful and you know their just going to bounce out of CC, shoot and charge you the following turn.

Black Knights are amazing, and amazing at a very many things, what there not made for is heavy tank hunting and taking out light infantry. That's where your standard bikes come in, Bolters, Flamer, and Meltas.

You have a scoring unit that's fast, and packs a good amount of fire power, keep in mind you can take a combi weapon on the sgt. The unit also has hit and run, but its more for keeping them out of CC then making them more potent.

Both units have Scouts and teleport homers, helping get them selves and your terminators into the best possible firing position.

[Crotch Lictor]

@ ForTheEmperor

What was the size of your RBK squad? I'm looking at maybe 1 squad for support.

[Stinkingyeti]

I've got an 1850 DA list i'm working on now, and it has two 3 man ravenwing units, i'm contemplating changing them to black knights, the skilled rider and grenade launchers make them very attractive. Plus they're not so bad on paper for combat if they get surprise charged, or score an opportunity to take out a weak target.