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Mr Mystery
01-26-2013, 03:56 PM
Kind of a counter point to Gotthammer's thread.

Now based entirely on my entirely anecdotal observations online, there seems to be a certain demograph who complaint about prices, and it seems to range from mid-teens to early twenties. This is also the same demograph least likely to be living independently.

Let me give you some perspective, from my own.

I earn £23,500 a year, which is nothing to be sniffed at. After tax and national insurance, plus pension investment and that, I take home around £1,500 a month. Seems like a lot of money, but it's not. And as such, you might think I would be price sensitive, but I'm quite the opposite. Why? Well I shall try to explain.

Let's kick off with my living expenses.....and remember, I have £1,500 a month income...

£450 rent on my flat (cheap for my area too, but that's by the by.
£432 a month just to get to work and back (I kid you not!)
£80ish a month on food (and that's cheap, on account I make a lot of stuff from scratch)
£76 on council tax.
£20 a month to pay for electricity.
£10 a month for water (yes folks, you have to pay for it!)

So by the time I've finished, you know, living, I have £430ish left.

Then of course comes additional bills we like to consider optional...

Phone bill? Average of £40 a month.
Internet? £48 a month (though plan I am sucks balls)

£344 a month left. Suddenly not so awesome.

Now, I also drink and smoke. Most drinking sessions involve around 6 pints, at £3.50 a pop. Typically once a week, but usually twice on pay week. Lets add that up....6 x £3.50, x 5 (average month) means I'm paying £105.00 a month. Leaving £229. Tobacco, papers and filters? About £40 a month.

All of a sudden, I'm left with £189 a month... All the above costs? Once it's spent, I eventually have nothing left to show for it......

Whereas this month, I spent £75ish just on GW books.... A good investment I feel as I can retread. Same as if I'd bought models. They're forever. The more I use them, the better value they prove.

In short? The price is nothing, not when you live in the real world and have to pay your own way...

Gotthammer
01-26-2013, 04:05 PM
Well as I said in the other thread (you could have just put this in there) I'm comparing the price of the literal same items across different sales zones. It's not about total cost, it's about relative cost to itself.


And for the record, I'm almost 30, own my own (new) car outright, pay all my own bills (with zero debt currently), work around 50-60 hours a week, have a 10 year old kid to look after and so on, so yeah, I'm living in the real world thank you very much.

antennafarm
01-26-2013, 05:22 PM
Well as I said in the other thread (you could have just put this in there) I'm comparing the price of the literal same items across different sales zones. It's not about total cost, it's about relative cost to itself.

using language like GW "screwing you" is not indicative of "relative cost."

Deadlift
01-26-2013, 05:37 PM
Disposable incomes a wonderful thing that soon vanishes when you produce grots, I'm not going to go into too much detail about my personal income, but I can't complain. However as the economy continues to struggle I am finding it harder to set aside 40k cash. I just hope GW don't price too many out of the hobby. I genuinely mean this as I love this geeky hobby of ours and with less people playing due to price hikes I do worry that the hobby may suffer.
Those who can, keep spending guys :), I look on in envy as I sped another £120 on kids cloths lol. Still ordered some Necron wraiths this month though ;)

Mr Mystery I envy your food bill mate.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent
01-26-2013, 06:43 PM
I HATE these discussions. I could make you all feel bad, but I won't, because this type of argument is degrading.... I enjoy the hobby, I'll pay for it.

Iyandagar
01-26-2013, 07:16 PM
I HATE these discussions. I could make you all feel bad, but I won't, because this type of argument is degrading.... I enjoy the hobby, I'll pay for it.

Snap.

fuzzbuket
01-27-2013, 04:32 AM
pocket money, £10 a month + £0 from adsence. :p

this may explain why i paint so slowly. (most of my funds are from birthdays/christmas)

gcsmith
01-27-2013, 05:03 AM
Games Workshop is ripping itself off. Because now it can't grow. Little kids are going to look at things like the new Chaos Warrior kits and think £50 for one model is absurd. Then they are going to go buy the next COD game and play with their friends.

This is even more true if it's the parents buying the stuff since the kids have no money.

Wolfshade
01-27-2013, 05:19 AM
I think GW is brilliant value, my £16 death company has been used in nearly every battle I've fought since brought the box 16+ years ago.
You get a gaming side which is good fun,you get a modelling/painting side which is also fun.

The hobby is expensive, but then so are most other things, compare the cost of going to the cinema with snacks and drinks and you get a couple of hours fun for £10, football matches those tickets can be £50 for 90 minutes, but once you have the initial investment you can use it as much as you like.

If you buy lists of the newest army I can see where the hostility comes from, but I compare the £10 snap fit tactical squads with the £20 ones now-a-days and that kit is easily twice as good.

Wildeybeast
01-27-2013, 05:27 AM
A good point there wolfie. A season ticket for my local team (Derby County) who are the second division would have cost £560 (if bought early) which gives roughly 34 and a half hours of football watching with no guarantees of that football actually being worth watching. For that price I can easily buy a whole new army and have limitless pleasure. First world problems eh? :)

Mr Mystery
01-27-2013, 06:18 AM
Games Workshop is ripping itself off. Because now it can't grow. Little kids are going to look at things like the new Chaos Warrior kits and think £50 for one model is absurd. Then they are going to go buy the next COD game and play with their friends.

This is even more true if it's the parents buying the stuff since the kids have no money.

Have to look beyond that. GW has it's own community.

Parents, and in particular grand parents (in my experience anyway) are mad for it, precisely because it's not a computer game! Any given war game is educational. They require good reading stamina, basic arithmetic, and encourage good social skills. Then you have the artistic side. Sure some parents couldn't care less, but a good proportion actively join in. The painting side can easily become a family activity. I've had entire families in at once for painting lessons. Very few hobbies offer this. Quality family time for relatively minor investment. There's parents out there buying Black Library books for bed time stories! Some even buy two copies so they can read along.

Now I am not saying this is universal, but where some see pricey models, others see family bonding with facets to please all!

Lost Vyper
01-27-2013, 06:42 AM
e.B.a.y...my way to go...only times i buy new models are
a) Need Forge World stuff (HORNETS!!!)
b) Don´t find models on eBay (or they are painted even worse than with my feeble skills :) )

dtjunkie19
01-28-2013, 12:06 AM
I HATE these discussions. I could make you all feel bad, but I won't, because this type of argument is degrading.... I enjoy the hobby, I'll pay for it.


I think GW is brilliant value, my £16 death company has been used in nearly every battle I've fought since brought the box 16+ years ago.
You get a gaming side which is good fun,you get a modelling/painting side which is also fun.

The hobby is expensive, but then so are most other things, compare the cost of going to the cinema with snacks and drinks and you get a couple of hours fun for £10, football matches those tickets can be £50 for 90 minutes, but once you have the initial investment you can use it as much as you like.

If you buy lists of the newest army I can see where the hostility comes from, but I compare the £10 snap fit tactical squads with the £20 ones now-a-days and that kit is easily twice as good.


A good point there wolfie. A season ticket for my local team (Derby County) who are the second division would have cost £560 (if bought early) which gives roughly 34 and a half hours of football watching with no guarantees of that football actually being worth watching. For that price I can easily buy a whole new army and have limitless pleasure. First world problems eh? :)

I dont believe I understand the logic of the arguments made in the above quotes. The comparisons being are are between one specific product line and an entire range of activities. Sure, when compared to other hobbies/activities, GW may well not be nearly as expensive. But comparing golf or watching pro sports or movies value to collecting models is silly because the perceptions of value between dissimilar goods are subjective. For a quick example, purchasing an army may not be limitless enjoyment for every person. It may be enjoyable for a while, but eventually you need something new, either because the old stuff no longer works, your tastes changed, rules changed, etc, etc. Compare that to the season tickets. Very few people buy 1 army, and never change or add to it. Most are consistently or repeatedly buying new models over time, in the same way you buy movie tickets or sport games tickets over time. Whether or not GW models are a good value or not because they have a similar initial buy in to another hobby is up to the individual. The fact that I have spent less on a 5 day trip to Paris than some GW armies would or even have costed me says a lot to me about value.

The question is not whether the prices of "the hobby" of miniature wargaming (which it is important to remember GW is but one competitor in this category) are fair and of value compared to other hobbies, but whether the prices of GW product are fair and of value both subjectively (I.e. how much you believe the product is worth and are willing to pay), and in comparison to other competing products.

The first question is ultimately up to the individual. My perceptions of value may be different than someone else's. Both opinions are valid. Those who express concern or displeasure about prices are expressing an opinion as much as someone who posts that they love new model x. As long as they are expressing their opinions rationally and respectfully without attacking others, there is no reason to chastise, criticize or belittle them.

As to the second question, in comparison to competing products GW offers very low value in my opinion. The breadth of companies producing amazing minis and wonderful, stimulating rules for much less than GW charges is one of the reasons that led me to downsize my 40k and fantasy collection to only a single army each and stop purchasing new models.

Chris*ta
01-28-2013, 11:34 AM
using language like GW "screwing you" is not indicative of "relative cost."

Gott never uses the phrase "screwing you", the closest she uses is ripoff/ripping off, but she adds this note"


Note 2: Yes, ripoff is a loaded word, but it makes for a great headline dontcha think ;)

And if you want something that's indicative of "relative cost", e.g. the Ravenwing battleforce retails at $185 Aus, the Australian dollar has been around 105 US cents for the last few years, how much does it retail in the US?

KrewL RaiN
01-28-2013, 01:21 PM
Have to look beyond that. GW has it's own community.

Parents, and in particular grand parents (in my experience anyway) are mad for it, precisely because it's not a computer game! Any given war game is educational. They require good reading stamina, basic arithmetic, and encourage good social skills. Then you have the artistic side. Sure some parents couldn't care less, but a good proportion actively join in. The painting side can easily become a family activity. I've had entire families in at once for painting lessons. Very few hobbies offer this. Quality family time for relatively minor investment. There's parents out there buying Black Library books for bed time stories! Some even buy two copies so they can read along.

Now I am not saying this is universal, but where some see pricey models, others see family bonding with facets to please all!

This is one hobby of mine my parents support just because I get out and socialize. It's a very social hobby too and you do make quite a few friends!

My disposable income is a bit low and as much as I love GW's products, it seems they keep creeping the price up with every new release. I am really good at cutting corners with the hobby with some sneaky converting (so easy to do with Tyranids and Daemons!), though my grand ideas and conversions tend to get put on hold since they will require quite a few expensive kits :< I gotta keep those creative high weeks in check too, as I tend to go over the budget when I HAVE TO MAKE my ideas lol.

OrksOrksOrks
01-29-2013, 08:36 AM
Its been said before and it will be said again, the Aussies have a higher minimum and average wage than we do in the UK and in most of the US, the price is weighted to what people can afford because its a luxuary product, no one needs it so its priced at a premium, to keep you wanting more. Aussies aren't getting ripped off, they earn more on average, businesses are more expensive to run there too, as everything is so spread out/ is a desert, its the way of the Hobby, its always going to be too expensive for the average customer to get all the things he wants in one go, so that he keeps coming back to get new things.

Mr Mystery
01-30-2013, 11:15 AM
Not to mention the cost of shipping it over to Oz in the first place. That puts a premium on it straight off the bat.

DarkLink
01-30-2013, 11:54 AM
I HATE these discussions. I could make you all feel bad, but I won't, because this type of argument is degrading.... I enjoy the hobby, I'll pay for it.

I also think they're silly, but because everyone commenting on them is, in reality, an armchair economist who doesn't actually have any idea of what's really going on behind the scenes with GW's business plan.