Outdated Codex - what qualifies?

[Denzark]

Hey chaps.

Was seeing some threads about should there be a new codex Armageddon/Eye of Terror etc. My tuppence - yes there should.

Anyhoo, it got me thinking - why are these now considered defunct, whereas other 3rd ed codices aren't? Ie Spacewolves until the start of this month, DE, etc? Surely by this principle the codex remains extant until replaced or confirmed obsolete - in which case, has there been a ruling rendering these codices obsolete and if so, where was it, and why did it apply to those but not to other 3rd ed ie spacewolves?

Otherwise I really could not object to an opponent fielding LandD, 13th etc - why should those 3rd ed listings be nerfed but not poxy spiky elves and wolfy pups?

Cheers all

PS might have just missed something really obvious so I'll stand by for slagging...

[DarkLink]

I'd describe "4 levels" of lists.

Outdated lists: The rules just don't work, or are limiting or very bad, because they were written for the rules and metagame that existed multiple editions ago. These really NEED to be redone.

Daemonhunters:( (my army)
Witchhunters
Dark Eldar
Black Templar


Hurtin' Lists: The rules still work and are pretty much fully compatible (with maybe an exception or two), but the changes to the way the rules work has hurt the army.

Necrons (the rules still work, strictly speaking, but rule changes hurt them more than anyone else)
Tau
Nidz



Competitive Lists: Same level of rules compatibility as Hurtin' Lists, but the rules changes were overall either neutral or beneficial to the army as a whole. They may not have a brand new codex, but they're doing just fine, overall.

Eldar
Chaos (The rules themselves are fine, as whiny as most chaos players are)
Blood Angels
Dark Angels (they're here, because they're basically exactly the same as vanilla Space Marines, with fewer new options)


New Lists: Written in 5th ed. You could also argue that one or two of the codecies written just before 5th ed came out count, too. (Were orks before or after 5th, I don't remember)

Space Wolves
Space Marines
IG
Daemons
Orks

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Eye of Terror and Armageddon are considered outdated because they make too many references to outdated codexes - the Speed Freaks in Armageddon, for instance, are reliant on the previous Ork Codex. Space Wolves managed to get by even with a new Space Marine dex because they only referenced it for the rules - they had their own points costs. 13th company from Eye of Terror was considered still playable when the 3rd edition Space Wolves dex was still being used, but is incompatible with current one. Lost and the Damned however, is heavily reliant on both the previous editions of Chaos and Imperial guard. The fact it features "counts-as nurglings" only adds to the issue.

These differences aren't that much of an issue - since most are modifier codexes, and have had apocalypse datasheets released based on them, re-costing and designing them isn't hard. Shame it can't be official.

[Pi666]

Eldar
Chaos (The rules themselves are fine, as whiny as most chaos players are)
Blood Angels
Dark Angels (they're here, because they're basically exactly the same as vanilla Space Marines, with fewer new options)




I Disagree. DA are not even close to vanilla marines. They're way more expensive, and have way less options. Should be redone, but it's not even in the horizon.

[eagleboy7259]

Dark Angels (they're here, because they're basically exactly the same as vanilla Space Marines, with fewer new options)

I remember my first impression of the codex, it was bad even when it came out. I took a look at the points costs, and they didnt make sense even for a minute. Sure combat squads were nice and shinny, but why did a Tactical Squad w/ Vet Sarge cost 25pts more than that same squad in the old vanilla codex? Sure there are some ups to it, but 50% of it leaves me scratching my head still to this day...

[DarkLink]

I Disagree. DA are not even close to vanilla marines. They're way more expensive, and have way less options. Should be redone, but it's not even in the horizon.

I'm honestly not too sure why they have their own codex. Almost all of their stuff is [supposed to be] a copy of vanilla marine units, like tactical squads and such.

The only unique thing they have is ravenwing and deathwing, and GW could have incorperated that into the vanilla marine dex by including Belial and Sammael as special characters (who would have Chapter Tactics: Stubborn or similar). Heck, they could have just let Captains in Terminator armor make Terminators troops. That way Dark Angels players could use the vanilla marine 'dex to make deathwing, and still get all the cool new options too.

Because they've been split off the vanilla marine dex, though, they get left behind whenever the vanilla marines get updated, and the very few unique options (compared to codecies like Space wolves) aren't good enough to make up the difference.


Anyways, I included them on the list where I did because they aren't a bad codex, per se, just that the vanilla marine codex is quite a bit better.

[BuFFo]

I'd describe "4 levels" of lists.

Outdated lists: The rules just don't work, or are limiting or very bad, because they were written for the rules and metagame that existed multiple editions ago. These really NEED to be redone.

Daemonhunters:( (my army)
Witchhunters
Black Templar


Hurtin' Lists: The rules still work and are pretty much fully compatible (with maybe an exception or two), but the changes to the way the rules work has hurt the army.

Necrons (the rules still work, strictly speaking, but rule changes hurt them more than anyone else)
Tau
Nidz



Competitive Lists: Same level of rules compatibility as Hurtin' Lists, but the rules changes were overall either neutral or beneficial to the army as a whole. They may not have a brand new codex, but they're doing just fine, overall.

Eldar
Chaos (The rules themselves are fine, as whiny as most chaos players are)
Blood Angels
Dark Angels (they're here, because they're basically exactly the same as vanilla Space Marines, with fewer new options)
Dark Eldar


New Lists: Written in 5th ed. You could also argue that one or two of the codecies written just before 5th ed came out count, too. (Were orks before or after 5th, I don't remember)

Space Wolves
Space Marines
IG
Daemons
Orks

Fixed.

My Dark Eldar is the bane of anyone in my local area. I just don't lose unless I really, really F up or the dice roll bad. The only list that gives me a problem are Horde Orks. And even then its meh.

[Lerra]

I think he's saying that Dark Eldar are outdated because much of the wargear doesn't function anymore, several units are just weird in 5th ed, etc. DE are very competitive, but they definitely could use a rules update - even a 5th ed pdf like the Blood Angels have now would be fine as a stopgap until the next codex comes out. Black Templar are in the same boat, sort of.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Nope, we're good. Move along, nothing to see here.

[Cryl]

Nope, we're good. Move along, nothing to see here.

Yeah I'm not sure BT are in the "utterly broken by 5th ed" category. Sure they suffer from the "my storm shield doesn't work the same as yours" nonsense but broken they are not especially with the way that some of the vows effects are now boosted (pref. enemy for example)

[Melissia]

By that definition, while Witch Hunters are broken by fifth edition, Sisters aren't. But then the Inquisition has always sucked as a collective army, while the Sisters have always had a reason to be feared :P

[MarshalAdamar]

Nope, we're good. Move along, nothing to see here.

Marshal agrees with Marshal

These are not the crusaders you're looking for.

[Culven]

Was seeing some threads about should there be a new codex Armageddon/Eye of Terror etc. My tuppence - yes there should.
Anyhoo, it got me thinking - why are these now considered defunct, whereas other 3rd ed codices aren't?
They have become defunct due to their reliance upon other codecies which have been updated, making them incompatable with the lists in Armageddon and Eye of Terror. For example, The Lost and the Damned uses the armoury from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Since the release of the current CSM codex, the armory doesn't exist. This is typical of the problems throughout the campaign codecies. In order to make them work, they need extensive house rules. Many players don't want to play what is, at that point, essentially a home-made codex or the players of the armies just don't want to deal with the hastle of going through the rules and addressing all of the problems. The easiest option is to simply use a current codex and have them "count as" that army.

[DarkLink]

Fixed.

My Dark Eldar is the bane of anyone in my local area. I just don't lose unless I really, really F up or the dice roll bad. The only list that gives me a problem are Horde Orks. And even then its meh.

Oh, I agree, Dark Eldar are still quite potent, used right. They're just really old, some pieces of wargear don't work, certain units have become useless (or always were useless), etc.

In terms of power, Dark Eldar (and Witchhunters) are pretty well off, actually. Daemonhunters and Necrons get the short end of the stick, though.


Edit:
Black Templar are very well off, as well. Any update will probably hurt them, purely for balance reasons.