Why metal? Wouldn't plastic be cheaper?

[Lindargo]

I was just wondering guys, you know the metal casts from GW?
Why cant they just make plastic ones? Imagine how much easier it would be if all the metal miniatures were made of plastic!
And dont say plastic doesn't have the properties for high detail. I have seen the Space Hulk mini's...
Lindargo,

[Col.Gravis]

Simply put, the plastic moulds cost more for GW to produce then metal ones, if a product sells lots plastic is fine as it will recoup the cost quickly, but models which sell in lower volumes (a prime example being character models) are better produced in metal meanwhile as it's cheaper - it is changing - but it's a slow process. I seem to remember something about GW budgetting for something like 50 NEW plastic sprues per year.

And to be fair, until realitively recently the quality of GW's plastics was far below it's metals, go back maybe 6-7 years and look at the plastics they produced then compaired to their metals, the technology they use has only recently improved dramaticly.

[Brother Rumba]

Molten metal can simply be poured into a mold to form a figure where as plastic must be injected into the mold under very high pressure using VERY EXPENSIVE injection molding machines. The low cost of metal makes relatively small runs viable but to do a run of plastic figures you had better do a very large run to make it cost effective. However there is a point where cost effectivness does a flip-flop, meaning large runs of metal figures would be more expensive to make that plastic.

Ironically, the same misconception that plastic is cheaper to produce than metal leads to the same idea about pricing. Plastic is a petroleum product after all. In America at least, the general public still perceive model building as a kid's thing, but the mainstream industry practically abandoned the kid's market about fifteen years ago because they knew they could not keep prices down where mom's and dad's would cough up a few bucks for an airplane kit or a race car now and then.

As high as prices are in the mainstream market GW's plastic kits are significantly higher most likely due the much smaller production runs but people like me who build both GW and mainstream agree that GW's quality is equal to the very best out there and well above the vast majority.

[MarshalAdamar]

Yea, it’s the cost of the set up that is the most prohibitive when working with injected plastic.

The cost of the dies and moulds is factored into the cost of each mini along with the cost of material. Some metal models you just can't turn into plastics. Notice that the inside of the marine chest is hollow, that’s to keep the cost down. If you tried to do say Njal he be a huge chuck of plastic and there for not much cheaper to produce he would have to be re-done to achieve some good cost savings and that costs even more money.

But I think that GW is going that way, plastic molding is better in the long run than metal. The customers like it and it increases sales because you can buy and box of this and a box of that and combine them to make something else. You can make upgrade packs like the deff rolla and such.

I think you'll be seeing more of those since they all ready have the die's made so look for a razor back upgrade sprue in the future with the assault cannons from the LRC and the TL HB and TL LC, they just have to make a new MM and TLHF and the las plas and we’ll finally be able to field all those great options with out scratch building.

[Melissia]

While it is true that plastic moulds are more expensive, they aren't really THAT much more expensive. It's been some time since I did the math, but I looked up the price for a commercially produced mould of high quality, and it was somewhere around 100,000 USD. There are some as low as 1500 USD, but those are probably low-quality ones, and certainly aren't commercial-quality.

[lobster-overlord]

You also haveto think that GW is making two sets of each mold, one for Memphis and one for Nottingham. That then doubles the cost, and Melissia is correct on the lines of 100,000. With rapid prototyping and CADD help, molds are easier to make, but no less expensive. Just makes having two easier to do.

For about $500 in materials, you can make a mold for the metal kasrkins, but 100,000 to make the plastics version. Are they going to sell enough kasrkins to make up the difference in price? Probably not. Cool models that they are, not every one will want to field the unit, thus you can get away with still making them in metal, even 5 years later. (molds for metal are not indestructable, but still, $500 every 1000 castings is still cheaper)

John M.

[Melissia]

Cheaper in the short run at any rate. Also note that people use Kasrkin models for veterans, and for Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (not that the latter matters much, they suck pretty hard).



But for, say, Sisters, whom use the same models for Celestians, Battle Sisters, Dominians, and Retributors (And possibly more units when their codex is expanded), plastic models make sense. That's a large number of units which use roughly the same models, so a good portion of that codex will be covered by the same molds.

[Commissar Lewis]

I like both plastic and metal models. Plastic for the versatility of building and converting, and metal for heaving at obnoxious rules lawyers and all-around jackasses. Kidding on that part; I like metal models because there is something satisfying about painting metal models.

[Gotthammer]

Metal molds also have looser tolerances than plastics. You don't have to stick purity seals on every funny little angle to make sure you can get it out of the die. Probably why plastic sisters are a way off, that being a Jes Goodwin (who is now head of plastics if I remember rightly) designed army he's likely the one in charge of any changeover, and would want it done right - and he's famously slow.

Additionally it is physically easier to cast a metal model - ideal for lower volume minis to knock out a few hundred boxes when inventary starts getting low.
As mentioned earlier you need a large piece of industrial machinery to make plastic kits, need to set it up for a certain set of sprues, and let it run for a certain length of time. It's why they can't release all the Apoc kits at once, even if the dies have been cut for years, that the sheer size of the sprues would likely take up most of their plastics production, meaning that while the factory is churning out Stompas there are no Tac squads, Rhinos or Boyz kits getting made.
Depending on the equipment it can take hours or even days to reset a high pressure mold press, so runs have to be in big, big quantities to be cost effective.

[eldargal]

I heard that too, but in GWs latest financial report they say they spent 3.2m pounds on factory and equipment expenses, of which 25% was spent on moulding tools, which would only be enough to acquire around 15 new moulds if the costs are as reported.:confused: The financial report does state several times that they are comitted to replacing as much of their metal range with plastic as they can.
Given that GW is a British company it would be nice if we could get the price of moulds and such in pounds rather than dollars to minimise the impact of exchange rates.


I seem to remember something about GW budgetting for something like 50 NEW plastic sprues per year.

[Wolfshade]

From GD:UK Jes said that it was cheeper to work in plastics and the cost of plastics is relatively stable where as metal markets fluctuate quite rapidly so the metal mini price has to reflect this and cover any sharp jumps in price. He also mentioned that until recently they didn't have the plastic technology to make their plastic minis anywhere as detailed as their metal ones, but now they have and so can do these sorts of things. He also went on to say that the studio weren't happy with the hybrid models like the old attack bike or baal predator as the metal and plastic never joined together as well as they would have hoped.

[miteyheroes]

Also, of course, Resin is cheapest and easiest of all. Hence Forgeworld being able to produce things with incredibly small runs, and the small independent companies often using Resin.

[BDub]

Also, of course, Resin is cheapest and easiest of all. Hence Forgeworld being able to produce things with incredibly small runs, and the small independent companies often using Resin.

Resin is neither cheap nor easy. It simply has the least overhead and start up cost especially at low volume (which is why the garage manufacturers use it). It takes a lot more human labor and expertise and this adds significantly to the cost of production. You can price high to get some of that back and to limit the demand on your product - yes they price high to limit the numbers they sell in addition to recouping costs. I know that sounds counter intuitive but as soon as your volume increases beyond a certain threshold that labor expense becomes unmanageable and you have to switch to a new manufacturing method (or go over-seas) with all the trade-offs on quality that the option brings.

Some other info. Spin-casting metal is the next option and is very scalable for higher volumes but the materials costs are climbing everyday, which is why most (even GW) are migrating away from it. I am not sure why spin-casting plastics has not filled that vacuum. I suspect there are other cost or quality trade-offs to it. But for high volume the king is Plastic injection. In the last 10 years (even the last 5) the technology has so drastically increase the efficiency of this option that it will not be long before all metal minis are gone from the mainstream. Molds used to cost in the 250K-100K range depending on size and complexity. They used to have to be carved by highly specialized artisans by hand drastically limiting their detail and complexity. Various technologies improved the speed and quality while reducing the expertise needed. Now a human isn't even needed in the process and the costs have plummeted to around 10-15K. The models are digitally created or sculpted and scanned into digital form. The mold is laid out virtually and checked for undercuts and then printed a layer at a time from metal powder using a laser (laser metal sintering). The tolerances are now so high and the plastic formulas so refined that they can inject at much higher pressures into a much larger number of cavities (hence the number op pieces on a sprue increasing along with detail). Some of these injection machines are fully robotic and can retool themselves (another expense that has been done away with) while working at much higher speeds than older injection methods.

In conclusion, the ugly truth that GW doesn't want you to know is that their cost per sprue averages out to pennies. Add to this the cost of packaging, promoting and distribution and they are still clearing a hefty profit off of the plastics while they have trained the customer base to pay an inordinately higher price then they need to for the product. . . and THAT is the real reason they and everyone else want to make everything in plastic.

[Lord Azaghul]

In conclusion, the ugly truth that GW doesn't want you to know is that their cost per sprue averages out to pennies. Add to this the cost of packaging, promoting and distribution and they are still clearing a hefty profit off of the plastics while they have trained the customer base to pay an inordinately higher price then they need to for the product. . . and THAT is the real reason they and everyone else want to make everything in plastic.

I think most industries are that way. Do you know how much a clothing store pays for named brand jeans? About 5$ or 6$ a pair - sticker price 85$ -130$. McDonalds, exact same thing: the burgers cost them PENNIES to make...

You're paying for the time the product spent in the store, the employees wages advertising ect...

[Brother Rumba]

An example of the beast in question...
http://www.kenplas.com/imm/kpet32.JPG


This is a 'must build'. All it needs is a few Grots working on it...
http://www.japantrends.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bandai-injection-mold-1m.jpg

[BDub]

I think most industries are that way. Do you know how much a clothing store pays for named brand jeans? About 5$ or 6$ a pair - sticker price 85$ -130$. McDonalds, exact same thing: the burgers cost them PENNIES to make...

You're paying for the time the product spent in the store, the employees wages advertising ect...

True to some degree. The examples you mention have high markups but for very different reasons. Clothing cannot be bought anywhere near cost because a lot of it never sells at the highest retail level. Even after what is left trickles down through big sales, mark-downs and discount/outlet stores, much of it still hasn't sold. So the original price per unit has to be marked up high enough to cover the cost of the stuff that doesn't sell. Remember buying at cost would be enough to cover all expenses put into a product (sales marketing shipping manufacture, design, etc) - but only if all of the product sells at or near the original retail price. GW has just such a situation as they can evaluate how much will sell on the initial run fairly closely, shelf what doesn't sell and then make additional runs just to keep up with demand. There is not a lot of process to go though once the initial capital has been invested. With the clothing and food examples you have two things at work - one has to purchased well in advance and is subject to a lot of guess work as to quantity to order and it only get ordered once - the other has to be ordered in advance but can be done accurately, unfortunately its perishable. So it cant sit on the shelf and wait to be sold and unused product does not trickle down through sales and discount chains. (imagine a burger that didn't sell while it was fresh being resold weeks later by a crappier restaurant)

What I'm saying is GW has a lot more room to come down in prices but has no incentive to.

[Lerra]

I worked in the office of a large retail chain, and it took me a long time to get used to the idea of 250% markup (or more) as "normal". And it's not like these stores were raking in the cash - a lot of them were barely breaking even, and some stores were losing money despite the huge markup. GW probably marks their products up more than your average retail chain, but they also have to pay for the product development, factory repair/maintenance, equipment purchases, etc.

GW could bring down their prices and still be profitable, but then again so could most companies, in theory.

[trjames]

An example of the beast in question...
http://www.kenplas.com/imm/kpet32.JPG


This is a 'must build'. All it needs is a few Grots working on it...
http://www.japantrends.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bandai-injection-mold-1m.jpg

That's one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen. An injection molded model of an injection molding machine. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so meta.

[ChrisW]

I like both plastic and metal models. Plastic for the versatility of building and converting, and metal for heaving at obnoxious rules lawyers and all-around jackasses. Kidding on that part; I like metal models because there is something satisfying about painting metal models.

ahh nothing more satisfying then swinging a dred in a sock, lol

really though i love the new plastics, and they just keep getting better. wish the original beeky boys had today's customability but then the level of detail was just not there at that time. it was the metal that had the 'fine' detail back then (5 - 6 dollar terminators). compared to today's plastics and metals you may think why did we buy that crap... ahh the good 'old days.

as for the prices going up, its pretty much on a level with everything else in our lives. a two bedroom apartment is no longer 250 a month, gas is no longer 35 cents a liter (ya Canucks got screwed even back then), and you be lucky to carry more than a couple bags of groceries after spending 60 bucks. heck you could even relate everything to the petroleum industry, but that is taking us to another world of rants and discussions....