Two Rules questions that have been puzzling me.

[Just_Me]

Every now and then I run across a rules question in one of the codex books that is hard to resolve. Most of the time a quick check of one of the FAQ & Errata articles offers a solution, but every now and then I can’t find the answer. Here are two such questions that have bothered me for a while:

1). When Grey Knights use their Holocaust you place the blast marker “anywhere in contact with the psyker” and “all models, friend or foe” take the hit. Does this include the psyker himself? A literal reading (especially in light of this edition’s template rules) would say yes, but it seems difficult to rationalize why this should be the case and at the time of writing merely touching a template did not constitute a hit (the model had to be at least slightly under the template to even get a partial).

2). Defilers are walkers, and as such may fire “all weapons” even if they move, and (by logical implication) may then assault afterwards. On the other hand ordnance rules clearly state that you may only fire the ordnance weapon. Clearly the defiler can fire its ordnance if it moves, but there is no precedent for assaulting after firing and ordnance weapon, can the defiler do so? The rules don’t say that it may, but they don’t say that I can’t either.

What take do all of you have on these questions?

[Kanaellars]

This is just my take, dont use me as fact.

1) Under the old rules, he was fine.... under the new rules I think he gets hit.

2) I go with the fact that its a walker, so fire then assault.

Like I said, just the decisions my group has made.... nothing in the rules really to support 100% either way.

[DarkLink]

The Grey Knight psyker is hit. Hits are determined by what the template touches, and by definition, the template must touch the GK. As you said, there's nothing protecting the psyker from the hit, except his terminator armor.

There's nothing preventing the Defiler from assaulting after shooting ordinance that I know of.

[lobster-overlord]

So flamers now torch themselves too as well since the template has to contact their base?

[Just_Me]

So flamers now torch themselves too as well since the template has to contact their base?

An excellent point, and one I had not considered. That would set precedent for the firer being immune to his own template...

[Hell_Restaurant]

Page 73 of the rulebook states "Walkers can make an assault even if they fired heavy or rapid fire weapons.". Since it doesn't specify ordnance weapons, doesn't it mean that the defiler would be unable to assault after firing it's battlecannon?

[Just_Me]

Page 73 of the rulebook states "Walkers can make an assault even if they fired heavy or rapid fire weapons.". Since it doesn't specify ordnance weapons, doesn't it mean that the defiler would be unable to assault after firing it's battlecannon?

That is exactly what confuses me :confused:. It doesn't say they can, but neither does it actually say that they can't. I suspect that they forget that the Defiler has ordnance when they were writing up the new rules...

[Nabterayl]

Sure, but all the instances in which you can't assault after firing a weapon are specified. I interpret the Defiler to be able to assault after shooting, but if it fires its battle cannon, it can't fire any other weapons.

[ggg]

So flamers now torch themselves too as well since the template has to contact their base?

That is the first time that I have ever seen this raised and it is an excellent point. I think it is a situation where the golden rule has to be applied, a common sense solution imposed to ensure that an outcome is not ridiculous - and that such a precedent therefore extends to the Grey Knights. It is similar to the ludicrous argument that Banewolves / heavy flamer razor backs / redeemers / cannot shoot their weapon as the template must touch or cover part of their hull when measured from the weapon. I say, "They can, get on with it."

Well observed.

[Nabterayl]

That is the first time that I have ever seen this raised and it is an excellent point. I think it is a situation where the golden rule has to be applied, a common sense solution imposed to ensure that an outcome is not ridiculous - and that such a precedent therefore extends to the Grey Knights. It is similar to the ludicrous argument that Banewolves / heavy flamer razor backs / redeemers / cannot shoot their weapon as the template must touch or cover part of their hull when measured from the weapon. I say, "They can, get on with it."

Well observed.

Remember the rules for placing flamer templates, from page 29:


Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base ofthe model firing it and the rest of teh template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

It is impossible to comply with those instructions unless we assume that the firing model doesn't count as a friendly model touching the template. I think as similar approach is called for with Holocaust. The common-sense solution to this, I think, is to draw a distinction between "partially under" and "in contact with." The Holocaust power clearly contemplates friendly fire in some circumstances, so I think it's fair to say that if you place the template such that any friendly models are literally under the template, they're subject to the power. On the other hand, if a model's base is simply touching the rim of the template, that model isn't under the template, and thus is not affected.

[Hell_Restaurant]

Sure, but all the instances in which you can't assault after firing a weapon are specified.
But the opposite is also true. All instances in which can can assault after firing a weapon are specified. Both assault and pistol weapons specify that you can assault after firing, while both rapid fire and heavy weapons specify you can't. Ordnance weapons don't mention anything, so it's kinda of a gray area.

[Nabterayl]

Hmmm, fair point. I still lean towards Defilers being able to assault after firing a battle cannon, as the spirit of the rule seems to me to be that walkers can assault no matter what, but you make a good point.

[Ivarr]

I think that this is the first case I have seen where the rules honestly do not address the question. There is no place in the rules that I can find that cover walkers firing ordinance weapons. I do also believe that the defiler is intended to be able to move and shoot its primary weapon, so that is the way that I will continue to play it until/if it is ruled on. Great question, and good read.

As for the grey knights thing, I think that the flamer rule sets very strong precedence for the caster being unaffected by his blast template.

[orklord2007]

under rules for teplate weapons

page 29 template weapons

"instead of rolling to hit , simply place the template so the that its narrow end is touching the base of the model....any models fully or partially under the template are hit"

if the weapon is a blast template. the rules for hitting are the same. so in neither case can the grey knight be affected by his own power as next to is clearly not "under"

[Nabterayl]

I do also believe that the defiler is intended to be able to move and shoot its primary weapon, so that is the way that I will continue to play it until/if it is ruled on. Great question, and good read.
Remember that in 5th edition you can always move and fire an ordnance weapon. You only have to be stationary to fire an ordnance barrage weapon. So that much at least is clear. It's the shoot and assault thing that's fuzzy.

[RogueGarou]

No one has mentioned it yet but there is another gray area where this rule comes into play. Two, I believe, actually. The Soul Grinder and Ku'Gath from the Daemons army. The Soul Grinder is basically a Defiler so whatever counts for one probably will count for the other. Ku'Gath, however, is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures can fire two weapons so there is no confusion there, I would think. But can he assault after blasting his template?As I recall, all of the Ordnance rules mention being on vehicles and the folks editing the rulebook probably never thought about a Monstrous Creature or a walker packing that kind of hardware. It is one of the things I would like to see in a FAQ.

[Xas]

the issue is non existant with the soulgrinder because his weapon isnt an ordnance weapon but a heavy1, 5"Blast.

same with kugath.


on the defiler in my book this is a circumstance where "if it isnt forbidden, it is allowed" applies and both pistols and assoult weapon clarifications are redundant to the normal rules.

you have a general rule that allows assoult. namely THE general assoult rules which again specifiy that you cannot assoult after firing heavy or rapid fire weapons (and this time ordnance falls into the same category as pistols and assoult who are not mentioned by even a single word).

and then you have some special circumstances which do not affect by their wording assoulting (shooting ordnance).



so forbiding a defiler to assoult after shooting his battlecanon has as many rules support as forbidding a modell to shoot his weapon if it starts it's turn in terrain (namely: nil).


what do you think?



on the flamer question I'd like to add another question:
if you have to place the template touching the base, how is this resolved with vehicles?
I'm especially interested if my chimeara with a turret mounted flamer which fires backwards can gain another 1" by placing the template touching her *** instead of the flamer nocle :)

[Pi666]

With the holocaust flamer doubt for there's no doubt. You have to put the template IN CONTACT (what for me is similar to touching but NEXT TO) and templates hit anything UNDER (not NEXT TO). As an example, grab a mini and a template (the flamer one) and put them on the table like the mini is firing, take your hands off and take a look. Now take the template and turn it like the mini was being fired, put the template on the table and in contact with the mini. You'll take the hit? I don't think so.

The defiler case, take the case of an stopped tank (not a russ). You can fire all your weapons like a walker right? When in a stopped tank (that acts like a walker in terms of shooting) you fire an ordnance, you can't shoot anything else, so I think you can't fire anything else in the defiler if you shoot the big cannon. About assaulting, there's nothing that forbids you about assaulting after firing ordnance, so you should be able to assault (but who would shot an ordnance to something so close to be assaulted? not me of course)

[SombreBrotherhood]

I'll weigh in on the general agreement that the GK psyker isn't hit by Holocaust, but his squadmates might be, if they're unlucky.

On the Defiler and other notes, though, I'll add this:
@RogueGarou + Xas : I thought of the Soul Grinder parallels as well, but all Mawcannon shot types are specifically 'Assault 1' weapons, with the phlegm type being 'Assault 1, Large Blast'.

For Defilers, I'd support Pi666, and say you can fire the BC and nothing else and charge as normal, OR everything BUT the BC and charge as normal.

For Kugath, though, I don't know. Classic weirdness from GW. Unless we take for granted that Ordnance weapons are a special type of Heavy weapon, and are thus covered by the Relentless USR that all Monstrous Creatures get. That sound fair?

[DarkLink]

Remember the rules for placing flamer templates, from page 29:


Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base ofthe model firing it and the rest of teh template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

It is impossible to comply with those instructions unless we assume that the firing model doesn't count as a friendly model touching the template. I think as similar approach is called for with Holocaust. The common-sense solution to this, I think, is to draw a distinction between "partially under" and "in contact with." The Holocaust power clearly contemplates friendly fire in some circumstances, so I think it's fair to say that if you place the template such that any friendly models are literally under the template, they're subject to the power. On the other hand, if a model's base is simply touching the rim of the template, that model isn't under the template, and thus is not affected.

Interesting point. I think the difference is in that Flamers cannot target Friendly models, while Holocaust simply "hits any models under the template".

Not that I ever use holocaust, but nice to know I might not have to take a hit from it if I ever do use it :D

[RogueGarou]

My bad on the Soul Grinder, it is listed as an Assault weapon on all three profiles. My Daemons Codex does list Ku'Gath's Necrotic Missiles as an Ordnance weapon. If that has been corrected in a new printing or a FAQ, then, cool, that one is settled. Still got the question about the Defilers. I never thought about it much before this thread but I suppose if I ever field one and it can only fire one weapon I would just replace the Reaper and Heavy Flamer with extra close combat arms.

[Brother Outs]

I know what i'm going to say is fluff, but it is from the chaos codex under defiler:" the defiler's most potent weapon is it's battle cannon. the foes that survive this barrage must face the defiler at close quarters". my take on this is yes. shoot, then assault.

[ChaosDave]

a defiler is a walker so walkers can move and fire all their weapons and then charge. so you move 6 toast a unit with the flamer then shoot it with the auto cannons. then you assault 6 and kill who ever is left with 4 strength 10 attacks.
would you really want to fire a battle cannon at something 6in away??? there are a few things that make me think you can fire the battle cannon even after you have moved. one it has no gunners. its a daemon. second a defiler can not be stunned or shaken. last reason is that in the that the rules say( page 70 small book) a walker can move and fire as a stationary vehicle all weapons. but ordnance (page 58 small book) say's you cant fire any other weapons even defense weapons. so i would say you can move 6 and fire the battle cannon only.
but if you do that you cant assault. unless you dropped a battle cannon shot on a unit 6 in away.

[ChaosDave]

miss one line.. i found nothing in the rues that said you can't fire a battle cannon if you moved 6 a defiler can only move 6 so i guess thats why they didn't add more notes to it. to move 12 with a defiler means you ran so you can't fire any weapons.

[BuFFo]

Flamers don't wound friendly models because the rules say they can't be targeted/shot at/placed on top of. You are told to touch the model firing it, and that is it.

Holocaust does wound friendly models because the rules say it does.

Easy as pie.