Space Marine Vehicles

[Kawauso]

Okay, so here's something that's been bugging me for a while. I just wanted to get it off my chest and see what fellow lore-lovers think or if anyone has some sort of canonical explanation.

So, Space Marines. We know a lot about them! For instance, we know that the vast majority of chapters, being codex-compliant, consist of about 1000 fighting marines in 100-strong companies. We also know in great detail how these companies are organized (battle companies for example consisting of a command unit, 6 tactical squads, 2 assault squads, 2 devastator squads and assorted support vehicles).

Those support vehicles are something of a logistical bugbear for me, however.

Thing is, Astartes also tend to take to the battlefield with a good amount of vehicular support. From Predators and Land Raiders and even humble Rhinos on the ground to Thunderhawks and Stormtalons in the air, there are a lot of craft that ferry marines about and support them in battle.

But where do all the pilots/drivers come from? I mean it's pretty clear that marine craft is crewed by marines (barring the odd servitor here and there), which makes perfect sense...
But in order to man all of these vehicles, especially in any large-scale engagement...well, that takes a lot of marines who don't have their boots on the ground. When you take into account the fact that most vehicles have 2-3 man crews...that's going to add up to a lot of Astartes pretty quickly. Enough so that it seems on the surface like it's going to eat into that ~1000-strong fighting force pretty quickly. So where are all these pilots and gunners and what-have-you coming from?

[sangrail777]

Here's a thought, even if a Chapter was "codex-compliant" thats "1000 fighting marines" to fill the basics slots.
So your not really going against the codex if you actually have more Marines that fill other slots. I'm in the Army we do this all the time. Our MTOE for a Battalion is only so many Soldiers, but we actually have additional Soldiers which we put into other slots, or just hide in the books somewhere. It's not unreasonable to have a Chapter which is an isolated fighting force do this as well. Also I've read some chapters use servitors or Marines that have been injured to fill these slots.
O' and this could be what the Reserve companies actually do. (I doubt this though)

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's a thought, even if a Chapter was "codex-compliant" thats "1000 fighting marines" to fill the basics slots.
So your not really going against the codex if you actually have more Marines that fill other slots. I'm in the Army we do this all the time. Our MTOE for a Battalion is only so many Soldiers, but we actually have additional Soldiers which we put into other slots, or just hide in the books somewhere. It's not unreasonable to have a Chapter which is an isolated fighting force do this as well. Also I've read some chapters use servitors or Marines that have been injured to fill these slots.
O' and this could be what the Reserve companies actually do. (I doubt this though)

Sangrail is probably right.

Also, though, in some chapters, chapter serfs fulfill a lot of functions, from building and repairing vehicles to crewing space ships. It wouldn't surprise me if in some chapters they even let them drive the tanks.

[Nabterayl]

IA2 goes into this in some detail, and all Forge World depictions of marine strike forces follow its lead. According to IA2, marine vehicles are indeed crewed by battle brothers of the "1,000," particularly the 6th and 7th reserve companies. This means that a "one company" strike force almost always contains personnel from a battle company and a reserve company, which provides the custodians (that's the marine name for "vehicle crew") for the armory vehicles, the fleet vehicles, and even the battle company's organic Rhinos and Razorbacks. It also means that even a full-strength chapter cannot put more than about five companies of infantry on the ground without starting to sacrifice vehicular support. Consider what it takes to move a battle company in Rhinos and just two Predators: eleven reserve marines for Rhino custodians, four for Predators, about ten for the strike cruiser, and fourteen for the Thunderhawk Transporters. That's almost three squads for a full combat drop, without any Thunderhaek Gunships for escort (four marines apiece) or rapid strike vessels to escort the strike cruiser (about five apiece, say).

To modern (enlightened) eyes it probably seems weird to have a highly trained commando driving the APC and serving as navigator on the drop ship. In the real world we would never waste highly trained personnel that way. I am convinced that this is intentional; nothing about the Imperium's war machine looks enlightened to modern eyes. And to a space marine, I imagine the honor of the chapter demands that precious assets like APCs and drop ships not be entrusted to anyone less than a fully trained commando - not to mention space marine clannishness and pride probably make them distrustful of relying on "lesser" personnel for combat support arms.

[Wolfshade]

In agreement with Nabterayl, IIRC some of the older codecii (by older I'm talking way back in the 2nd ed) go into some detail saying that it is the marines in the reserve companies that learn to drive. Additionally, you could also sometimes have the bizare situation whereby the tank would explode by the crew/driver would survive and so you wound then have a marine running around, either that or in my youthful exuberance I player the rules wrong.
Also, the 1000 strong must be a bit shy really if you consider 10 soliders in 10 squads in 10 companies does get to 1,000 marines, but then each company has a captain + command squad so that is another 60, then there is the chapter master and honour guard/retinue. On top of this you then have the HQ support the chapter librarians, chaplains, apothecaries and technmarines which push you way over.

There was a BoLS article a little while ago discussing the numbers.

[sangrail777]

I would concede that every answer on this page is correct.
Each Chapter does their own thing and thinking of fluff, orginization, capabilities, training doctrine, SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures).
I've read that some Chapters will even send some Marines to other Chapters for training on flying Thunderhawks, or operating Landspeeders etc.
I think it all depends on how the Chapter Leadership deals with being an Autonomies entity.

[Pendragon38]

I would concede that every answer on this page is correct.
Each Chapter does their own thing and thinking of fluff, orginization, capabilities, training doctrine, SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures).
I've read that some Chapters will even send some Marines to other Chapters for training on flying Thunderhawks, or operating Landspeeders etc.
I think it all depends on how the Chapter Leadership deals with being an Autonomies entity. Almost all the tanks and flyers are manned by tech marines. Save the bikes and speeders are manned from the assault squads. And there's about 20-30 tech mariners for the armoure ands hundreds of servitors for them.

Perry

[Kawauso]

Thanks for the replies, everyone - I have to say you've helped put my mind more or less at ease in this regard.

I figured the reserve assault/devastator companies were likely the ones to crew vehicles, since their members are often split up and attached to battle companies, anyway. It just seemed kind of strange to sacrifice that extra infantry potential for their vehicular support. But then I guess it does make sense from an SM perspective. Plus an SM vehicle (which are better than run-of-the-mill Imperial tech, for the most part) piloted by an SM makes sense for a pretty deadly combination. I just suppose it means that at most times at least 2-3 full companies within a chapter are providing vehicular support for other companies.

As for the Techmarine bit, Pendragon, I don't know how much sense that makes.
I mean yeah, almost all the models would imply that vehicle pilots/etc. are Techmarines of some sort...but at the same time that doesn't make much sense.
Not only are Techmarines busy with all the chapter upkeep (and there'd be a lot of that to do), but 20-30 guys...there's no way they would be enough to provide vehicular support for the 5 battle companies a chapter has. I mean, there's no way they'd be able to do it -without- the added responsibility of maintenance and everything else they do...

[Nabterayl]

I think a more likely lore explanation for the abundance of opus machinae on custodian models is that when a marine is assigned as custodian of a vehicle, it's an event worthy of altering his power armor (like serving a term in the Deathwatch). After all, he is going to be jacking his black carapace into that vehicle (via his armor, per IA2), and custodian vehicles are not like bikes, land speeders, or guns. Those are revered relics of the chapter; a tank or war machine is a revered relic and, to a space marine, a comrade-in-arms. Space marines fight over a damage or destroyed Rhino like they fight over a wounded or slain battle brother. I'd say being assigned to such a machine could well warrant a special badge.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i always thought crew were either company line troops, reserves if more infantry were needed and or low rank techmarines for specialist stuff (land raider, fliers etc)

GW kinda follow that logic with the pads you get with kits.

[Nabterayl]

I'm sure there are chapters who have enough techmarines to crew vehicles, but the chapters we have TO&Es for (e.g., Ultramarines, Blood Angels) list initiates in their respective departments. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that techmarine initiates are either included in the "techmarine" total, or not listed at all because they're unavailable for duty (being, you know, on Mars).

IA2 has this to say:


The crews for armoured vehicles are all full Space Marines, and are often referred to as Custodians of a vehicle. Most crews are drawn from the Tactical squads of the Chapters [sic] Sixth and Seventh Companies. All Space Marines have some training in the use of armoured vehicles. Driving Rhinos and armoured formation tactics are part of a recruit's basic training. Later, Space Marines specialise in armoured operations and tactics, being trained in the operation of larger vehicles and basic maintenance. All Space Marine vehicle [sic] are fitted with spinal interfaces which a Custodian plugs into their powered armour and Black Carapace allowing a Space Marine to become part of his vehicle, giving him an intuitive "feel" for a vehicles [sic] controls and systems.

The book then lists the following example strike force, from the Badab War, noting that "Each company provided its own Rhino transports and bikes, whilst 7th provided all the Land Speeder variants and the Custodians for the vehicles drawn from the Armoury."


Kymara Pursuit Force (Executioners Chapter)
Commander: Captain Belloch (2nd co.)
2-i-c: Chaplain Khalil
Librarius: 1 Codicier
Apothecarion: 2 Apothecaries, 6 Servo-meds in Rhino
Second Company: Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer
1 Assault squad on 6 bikes and 2 attack bikes
4 Tactical squads in 3 Rhinos and 2 Razorbacks
2 Devastator squads in Rhinos
Seventh Company: 4 Land Speeders, 3 Land Speeder Tornados, 1 Land Speeder Typhoon
4 Tactical squads (operating as vehicle crew)
Eighth Company: 3 Assault squads in Rhinos
Tenth Company: 2 Scout squads on bikes
Armoury: 4 Techmarines, 14 Servitors, 1 Land Raider Prometheus, 2 Land Raiders, 2 Predator Destructors, 1 Predator Annihilator, 4 Whirlwinds, 1 Damocles

If that's a "typical" strike force, then techmarines clearly don't normally crew vehicles. Tallying up the crew requirements to put every vehicle in the field, we have 9 Rhinos, 2 Razorbacks, 3 Land Raiders, 3 Predators, 4 Whirlwinds, and 1 Damocles. That's a total of 35 custodian positions [EDIT: I'm assuming 3 marines per Land Raider, per the 4th edition codex; other sources, such as IA2 itself, list the standard 2 marines even for Land Raiders), leaving 5 of Seventh Company's marines to command the mothership and/or fly Thunderhawks. While that's probably feasible (as long as you don't mind ferrying down the vehicles very slowly), the book also leaves the option that Second and Eighth Companies provided their own Rhinos as well as their own Rhino custodians, leaving an extra 11 Tactical marines to fly. And we may presume that, since the Seventh Co. personnel are Tactical marines, they could also be used as an infantry reserve if a given mission didn't require deploying them as custodians.

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah spot on with the rundown. and i agree with what you are saying, most SM vehicles are crewed by normal rank troopers, assault vehicles (speeders bikes etc) are assault marines/assault reserve comp, transports (rhino/razors) are tacts/ tact reserves and preds/vindicators will be devs/reserve devs.
obviously a marine has the training but specialises, right tool for the job and all that.

[Nabterayl]

assault vehicles (speeders bikes etc) are assault marines/assault reserve comp,
Surprisingly, that's not the whole story. While Land Speeders and bikes are the province of assault marines in both battle companies and the assault company, the 6th company is traditionally a bike specialist formation, and the 7th company is traditionally a Land Speeder specialist formation (while both are, in addition, custodian specialist formations). See page 16 of the space marine codex:


The 6th Company is also trained to use bikes, and the entire Company may be deployed as bike squadrons. Similarly squads of the 7th Company are trained to fight with Land Speeders and the Company commonly acts as a light vehicle reserve formation. The 8th Company is an Assault Company consisting of ten
Assault squads. This is the most mobile company and is often equipped with jump packs, bikes and Land Speeders ...

On the other hand, there's no indication that the 9th company has any special involvement with the armory. While I'm sure any space marine except for very, very green battle brothers is capable of operating any vehicle in the armory, we only ever see the tactical reserve companies mentioned as tank specialists. Perhaps this is because the 9th company has its own specialty to focus on (foot fire support), or perhaps it's because the 6th and 7th, consisting solely of tactical marines, tend to be the most experienced companies in the chapter short of the 1st.

EDIT: Not that this has stopped me from having the captain of the 4th company of my own space marine chapter commit the absolutely shocking heresy of keeping vehicles from the armory permanently assigned to his company and crewed by his devastators :D

[Kawauso]

Just wanted to say that I love this thread. :3
All the replies have been awesome and I appreciate everyone who's contributed to this topic.

Since there are obviously a number of background buffs here who've read up on the IA books pretty extensively, does anyone know if there are any detailed records pertaining to the number of vehicles maintained by a typical chapter? And by that I mean including information on particular variants - like the total number of Land Raiders a chapter would have in the armoury, including variants like the Achilles. And/or including old Heresy-era stuff like Executioner Predators.

Actually, I'd also be curious as to whether anyone knows if there are such tallies whether they'd include information on vehicles maintained by a chapter but not combat-worthy, such as vehicles used for training exercises, etc.

[Nabterayl]

Just wanted to say that I love this thread. :3
All the replies have been awesome and I appreciate everyone who's contributed to this topic.

Since there are obviously a number of background buffs here who've read up on the IA books pretty extensively, does anyone know if there are any detailed records pertaining to the number of vehicles maintained by a typical chapter? And by that I mean including information on particular variants - like the total number of Land Raiders a chapter would have in the armoury, including variants like the Achilles. And/or including old Heresy-era stuff like Executioner Predators.

Actually, I'd also be curious as to whether anyone knows if there are such tallies whether they'd include information on vehicles maintained by a chapter but not combat-worthy, such as vehicles used for training exercises, etc.
We have pretty good information (though it doesn't include vehicles that were very recently introduced, such as Stormtalons, Storm Eagles, etc., which were generally invented in the real world after our sources were written), though probably not quite as granular as one might wish. Prepare yourself for a wall of text:

Imperial Armour 2 gives us the following:


"Generally a Space Marine Chapter will maintain between 20 and 30 Predators of all types,"
"The Master of the Forge will maintain a pool of between twenty and thirty Whirlwinds, although this can vary considerably from Chapter to Chapter,"
"A Chapter might retain a dozen or so of these specialised vehicles [Vindicators] in its armoury,"
"A small surgical strike force is unlikely to have need of a Damocles' specialised support. A full company battlegroup, deployed in strength, with Rhinos, Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Thunderhawks, drop pods, teleporting Terminators, and every weapon in the Space Marine's formidable arsenal, would benefit greatly from a Damocles Command Rhino,"
"all Space Marine Chapter forges are capable of manufacturing the materials needed to produce Land Raiders," and
"In total, a typical Chapter might be able to field 50 plus Land Speeders of all types."

In addition, IA2 gives us several "historical" strike forces as examples. In addition to the one already quoted, we have:

Blood Angels 3rd Company Task Force, 3rd Armageddon War (Tycho's force):

Personnel:
3rd Company (full strength)
1 Epistolary, 1 codicier
2 Sanguinary priests
10 Scouts (well, 9 scouts and 1 scout sergeant)
Vehicles:
1 Strike Cruiser
2 Rapid Strike Vessels (Gladius class)
4 Thunderhawk Gunships
3 Thunderhawk Transporters
10 Rhinos
3 Baal Predators
2 Predator Destructors
1 Predator Annihilator
2 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
2 Razorbacks with lascannons
4 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
4 Land Speeder Typhoons

Ultramarines Joran IV Retaliation Force

Personnel:
1 Codicier and 3 Lexicanium
1 Apothecary
3rd Company (35 Tactical marines, 8 Assault marines, 20 Devastator marines)
10 Terminators
20 Scouts
Vehicles:
2 Strike Cruisers
3 Rapid Strike Vessels (Gladius class)
12 Thunderhawk Gunships
8 Thunderhawk Transporters
8 Rhinos
4 Land Raiders
6 Predator Destructors
4 Predator Annihilators
3 Razorbacks with lascannons
3 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
4 Vindicators
3 Whirlwinds
1 Whirlwind Hyperios
5 unidentified Rhino-chassis vehicles (maybe an omission in the text)
2 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
2 Land Speeder Typhoons

Warmongers Jakal II Intercept Force

Personnel:
1 Epistolary, 2 codiciers, 2 lexicanium
2 Apothecaries
2nd Company (full strength)
5 Terminators
3 Assault squads (8th Co.)
10 Scouts
Vehicles:
1 Battle Barge
4 Rapid Strike Vessels (3 Gladius class, 1 Nova class)
9 Thunderhawk Gunships
6 Thunderhawk Transporters
13 Rhinos
1 Damocles Command Rhino
2 Land Raiders
3 Predator Destructors
1 Predator Destructor
2 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
2 Vindicators
5 Whirlwinds
2 Whirlwinds Hyperios
1 Land Raider Helios
3 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
4 Land Speeder Typhoons

Doom Eagles 13th Black Crusade Strike Force

Personnel:
Chapter Master Hearon
1 Chief librarian, 2 epistolaries, 4 codiciers, 5 lexicanium
5 Apothecaries
50 Terminators
2nd Company (full strength)
4th Company (full strength)
6th Company (full strength)
50 Devastators (9th Co.)
70 Scouts
Vehicles:
1 Battle Barge
3 Strike Cruisers
8 Rapid Strike Vessels (3 Hunter, 4 Gladius, and 1 Nova class)
15 Thunderhawk Gunships
18 Thunderhawk Transporters
40 Rhinos
2 Damocles Command Rhinos
11 Land Raiders
2 Land Raider Crusaders
7 Predator Destructors
6 Predator Annihilators
4 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
3 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
4 Whirlwinds Hyperios
11 Land Speeders
5 Land Speeder Tornados
9 Land Speeder Typhoons

In addition, we have full or nearly full chapter armory and fleet data for the Ultramarines and Blood Angels thanks to their codices. THis gives us:

Ultramarines

Fleet:
3 Battle Barges
8 Strike Cruisers
12 Rapid Strike Vessels
31 Thunderhawk Gunships
<No Thunderhawk Transporters listed, which is probably an omission>
Armory (note only 27 techmarines and 95 servitors for the entire chapter):
25 Predators
8 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
12 Land Raiders

Blood Angels

Fleet:
2 Battle Barges
7 Strike Cruisers
16 Rapid Strike Vessels
36 Thunderhawk Gunships
3 Thunderhawk Transporters (<perhaps as the result of a disaster? This list is specifically as of "circa 999.M41">)
Armory (note 35 techmarines and 105 servitors):
20 Predators
18 Baal Predators
5 Vindicators
7 Whirlwinds
43 Land Raiders
51 Stormraven Gunships

We have more data from other Imperial Armour books, but I'll stop there.

The most striking thing about all of our data, to me, is how incredibly limited space marine chapters really are. In a stand-up fight, an entire space marine chapter contains considerably fewer vehicles (and even fewer tanks) than a single Imperial Guard armored regiment (for which we also have several exemplary TO&Es from Imperial Armour). As IA2 makes clear, space marine vehicles have to operate like space marines themselves to be effective. There simply aren't enough vehicles in the entire chapter (let alone Thunderhawk Transporters to move them around) to do anything but "short term operations, rapid strikes, attacking fast with overwhelming force" (as IA2 puts it).

[DarkLink]

Here's a thought, even if a Chapter was "codex-compliant" thats "1000 fighting marines" to fill the basics slots.
So your not really going against the codex if you actually have more Marines that fill other slots. I'm in the Army we do this all the time. Our MTOE for a Battalion is only so many Soldiers, but we actually have additional Soldiers which we put into other slots, or just hide in the books somewhere. It's not unreasonable to have a Chapter which is an isolated fighting force do this as well. Also I've read some chapters use servitors or Marines that have been injured to fill these slots.
O' and this could be what the Reserve companies actually do. (I doubt this though)

Same thing with the USMC, where a rifle company is theoretically three platoons of three squads of three fireteams of three Marines, plus a fireteam/squad/platoon leader for each of those units (plus a weapons platoon, but they're organized differently). That's theoretically~150 Marines, but there are a lot more Marines than that because there are a lot of jobs to fill in the gaps. You have various staff NCOs at multiple levels of the organization, Navy Corpsmen, XO's, etc.

Chapters likely work the same way. There are 10 Companies of 100 line grunts, plus support staff, for maybe 120+ Marines total depending on how lean their organization is.

[Nabterayl]

I don't know how likely that is. Space marines are one part USCM, one part Bretonnians, and one part MI, right? When the sources outright state or heavily imply to us that "everybody fights," I see no reason not to take them at their word. Is that inefficient? Sure. It's the Imperium, after all.

The Ultramarines and Blood Angels codicies give us actual numbers for the companies, the armory, the librarium, the reclusiam, the apothecarion, plus roughly 1,000 serfs in the "administrative" branch of the Imperium. That seems like enough to fight the chapter to me, except for the fleet serfs who actually crew the starships (and it's consistent with the tooth-to-tail ratio of early 20th century armies, which is roughly the paradigm 40K uses as its baseline). I don't think we need to imagine additional battle brothers lurking off the books.

[Pendragon38]

We have pretty good information (though it doesn't include vehicles that were very recently introduced, such as Stormtalons, Storm Eagles, etc., which were generally invented in the real world after our sources were written), though probably not quite as granular as one might wish. Prepare yourself for a wall of text:

Imperial Armour 2 gives us the following:
"Generally a Space Marine Chapter will maintain between 20 and 30 Predators of all types,"
"The Master of the Forge will maintain a pool of between twenty and thirty Whirlwinds, although this can vary considerably from Chapter to Chapter,"
"A Chapter might retain a dozen or so of these specialised vehicles [Vindicators] in its armoury,"
"A small surgical strike force is unlikely to have need of a Damocles' specialised support. A full company battlegroup, deployed in strength, with Rhinos, Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Thunderhawks, drop pods, teleporting Terminators, and every weapon in the Space Marine's formidable arsenal, would benefit greatly from a Damocles Command Rhino,"
"all Space Marine Chapter forges are capable of manufacturing the materials needed to produce Land Raiders," and
"In total, a typical Chapter might be able to field 50 plus Land Speeders of all types."

In addition, IA2 gives us several "historical" strike forces as examples. In addition to the one already quoted, we have:

Blood Angels 3rd Company Task Force, 3rd Armageddon War (Tycho's force):
Personnel:

3rd Company (full strength)
1 Epistolary, 1 codicier
2 Sanguinary priests
10 Scouts (well, 9 scouts and 1 scout sergeant)

Vehicles:

1 Strike Cruiser
2 Rapid Strike Vessels (Gladius class)
4 Thunderhawk Gunships
3 Thunderhawk Transporters
10 Rhinos
3 Baal Predators
2 Predator Destructors
1 Predator Annihilator
2 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
2 Razorbacks with lascannons
4 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
4 Land Speeder Typhoons



Ultramarines Joran IV Retaliation Force
Personnel:

1 Codicier and 3 Lexicanium
1 Apothecary
3rd Company (35 Tactical marines, 8 Assault marines, 20 Devastator marines)
10 Terminators
20 Scouts

Vehicles:

2 Strike Cruisers
3 Rapid Strike Vessels (Gladius class)
12 Thunderhawk Gunships
8 Thunderhawk Transporters
8 Rhinos
4 Land Raiders
6 Predator Destructors
4 Predator Annihilators
3 Razorbacks with lascannons
3 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
4 Vindicators
3 Whirlwinds
1 Whirlwind Hyperios
5 unidentified Rhino-chassis vehicles (maybe an omission in the text)
2 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
2 Land Speeder Typhoons



Warmongers Jakal II Intercept Force
Personnel:

1 Epistolary, 2 codiciers, 2 lexicanium
2 Apothecaries
2nd Company (full strength)
5 Terminators
3 Assault squads (8th Co.)
10 Scouts

Vehicles:

1 Battle Barge
4 Rapid Strike Vessels (3 Gladius class, 1 Nova class)
9 Thunderhawk Gunships
6 Thunderhawk Transporters
13 Rhinos
1 Damocles Command Rhino
2 Land Raiders
3 Predator Destructors
1 Predator Destructor
2 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
2 Vindicators
5 Whirlwinds
2 Whirlwinds Hyperios
1 Land Raider Helios
3 Land Speeders
2 Land Speeder Tornados
4 Land Speeder Typhoons



Doom Eagles 13th Black Crusade Strike Force
Personnel:

Chapter Master Hearon
1 Chief librarian, 2 epistolaries, 4 codiciers, 5 lexicanium
5 Apothecaries
50 Terminators
2nd Company (full strength)
4th Company (full strength)
6th Company (full strength)
50 Devastators (9th Co.)
70 Scouts

Vehicles:

1 Battle Barge
3 Strike Cruisers
8 Rapid Strike Vessels (3 Hunter, 4 Gladius, and 1 Nova class)
15 Thunderhawk Gunships
18 Thunderhawk Transporters
40 Rhinos
2 Damocles Command Rhinos
11 Land Raiders
2 Land Raider Crusaders
7 Predator Destructors
6 Predator Annihilators
4 Razorbacks with heavy bolters
3 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
4 Whirlwinds Hyperios
11 Land Speeders
5 Land Speeder Tornados
9 Land Speeder Typhoons



In addition, we have full or nearly full chapter armory and fleet data for the Ultramarines and Blood Angels thanks to their codices. THis gives us:

Ultramarines
Fleet:

3 Battle Barges
8 Strike Cruisers
12 Rapid Strike Vessels
31 Thunderhawk Gunships
<No Thunderhawk Transporters listed, which is probably an omission>

Armory (note only 27 techmarines and 95 servitors for the entire chapter):

25 Predators
8 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
12 Land Raiders



Blood Angels
Fleet:

2 Battle Barges
7 Strike Cruisers
16 Rapid Strike Vessels
36 Thunderhawk Gunships
3 Thunderhawk Transporters (<perhaps as the result of a disaster? This list is specifically as of "circa 999.M41">)

Armory (note 35 techmarines and 105 servitors):

20 Predators
18 Baal Predators
5 Vindicators
7 Whirlwinds
43 Land Raiders
51 Stormraven Gunships



We have more data from other Imperial Armour books, but I'll stop there.

The most striking thing about all of our data, to me, is how incredibly limited space marine chapters really are. In a stand-up fight, an entire space marine chapter contains considerably fewer vehicles (and even fewer tanks) than a single Imperial Guard armored regiment (for which we also have several exemplary TO&Es from Imperial Armour). As IA2 makes clear, space marine vehicles have to operate like space marines themselves to be effective. There simply aren't enough vehicles in the entire chapter (let alone Thunderhawk Transporters to move them around) to do anything but "short term operations, rapid strikes, attacking fast with overwhelming force" (as IA2 puts it).
Thanks,you saved me the trouble of posting the IA2 lists, now what about chrounes he's a tank commander with over fifty battle brothers for his armored assault. And there not listed in there so there are extra troops for there tanks then? Look at the last DA codex you could take a tech marine for every dread pread land raider whirl wind and vindi you fielded in there dex. That's a small part of what I found Nabterayl and the tech marines manning the tanks was from 2nd Ed, so I messed up in my later post. Has anyone seen the old list for iron hands, I haven't seen it in almost ten years or better man I'm old.

[Nabterayl]

Thanks,you saved me the trouble of posting the IA2 lists, now what about chrounes he's a tank commander with over fifty battle brothers for his armored assault. And there not listed in there so there are extra troops for there tanks then?
For reference, Pendragon is referring to this part of Chronus' entry:


As the Spear, it is Chronus' duty to lead the Chapter's armoured assaults, and his privilege to choose the chariot in which he rides to battle. It is a unique position of authority within the Ultramarines, for it means that although Sergeant Chronus has command over some fifty Brother-Marines, he himself is not subject to the orders of a Captain and answers in all things only to Lord Macragge (emphasis added).

That can't be referring to techmarines, since the very same codex lists the Ultramarines at only 27 men. Nor can it mean that the Ultramarines never deploy more than 50 crew (25 vehicles) at once, since the Joran IV Retaliation Force includes more than that. I think there are only two possibilities: either Sergeant Chronus' commission gives him authority over no more than 50 men (more than that would have to be subject to a captain - not unreasonable, since 50 men is over half the entire armory), or Sergeant Chronus has a body of 50 men under his permanent command.

Of the two, I find the second more plausible. For all their reputation as the epitome of a "codex" chapter, the Ultramarines are remarkably fond of extra-codex formations. The Tyrannic War Veterans are one example, and a relatively conservative one since TWVs are not their own unit (it's more like a qualification that individual soldiers can possess). Less conservative is the existence of at least one permanent fleet officer (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lazlo_Tiberius), which we know is not standard - and, of course, Chronus himself, who holds a permanent position. All that being the case, I think it most likely that Calgar is totally fine with having non-techmarine custodians permanently assigned to the armory - so the Ultramarines have a dedicated body of tank specialists to call on that is large enough to crew all but the most massive armored deployments without drawing on 6th or 7th Co. This is not what the codex prescribes, as IA2 makes clear, but Ultramarines literature tends to emphasize that the chapter reveres the codex as guidelines more than actual rules* - and I imagine the codex doesn't specifically say, "Thou shalt not maintain extra space marines as full-time custodian or fleet officers."

* As far as I can tell, that's what the codex actually is. At the time it was written, mankind had just finished fighting the first interstellar war in millennia, and there hadn't really been time until then for anybody to sit down and collect the lessons learned about, you know, how you fight an interstellar war. From what we hear about it second-hand, the codex seems to me less like a series of prescriptions and more like an annotated war diary (like Infanterie Greift An (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanterie_Greift_An), if any of you have read that) for one half, and thoughts on space marine chapter organization for the second.

[DarkLink]

I don't know how likely that is. Space marines are one part USCM, one part Bretonnians, and one part MI, right? When the sources outright state or heavily imply to us that "everybody fights," I see no reason not to take them at their word. Is that inefficient? Sure. It's the Imperium, after all.


The extra Marines would still be fighting. They would be the command staff and drivers and pilots and stuff. That's what I was saying, that there's 10 10-man squads with a sergeant for 100 grunts, then company commander, XO, lieutenants, apothecaries, drivers, etc, for more than 100 fighting Marines total.

[Nabterayl]

Right, but I guess my question is, why should we assume that they're there? In some cases (such as the Ultramarines) they apparently are, but in terms of the codex default ... why is it weird to imagine that a chapter master governs with nothing more than his honor guard (which seems to be ~10-30 veterans) and department heads, plus the "civilian" support serfs from the Logisticiam? Why is it weird to imagine that a captain can fight his company with no more support than his ten sergeants, the four marines in his command squad, and the chaplain and apothecary assigned to his company on a semi-permanent basis? I don't see a reason to infer battle brothers off the books.

[DarkLink]

That's what I meant by "depending on how lean their organization is". There could be a Captain, an Honor Guard, Apothecary, Chaplain, Librarian, and the 100 Marines. There could be 10 drivers for Rhinos for everyone. It would depend on exactly how the chapter is organized, but there would be additional Marines to fill in the necessary slots, so there would actually be a little more than 100 Marines per company.

[Alan Connell]

Also take into account that at the end of the day a chapter also has alot of failed aspirants and chapter serfs or thralls in case of SW chapter, not all marines aspirants make it even close to completing all surgeries, doesnt mean they die but go on to serve in auxillary roles.

cant remember the book but alot of SW thralls pilot alot of the stuff. Also some chapters just hardwire servitors into pilot positions.

Another thing to remember is also these strike cruisers have personnal numbering into the ten`s of thousand, all chapter serfs and servitors.

I bring this up aswell as at end of day even 1000 marines cannot logistically hold a planet in a war, they are a surgical strike force designed for inflicting max damage in shortest time with the least resources needed. So assumming a chapter sends a force to take a planet and they have no pdf or guards to back em up, the only way would be to hold said objectives in the campaign, would be to use serfs and thralls to hold key secondary points allowing the marines to act as rapid response force in a defensive war or to free them up to take the battle to the enemy.

so in my mind to sum up, a company with a strike cruiser is bringing more like 25000 + troops to the conflict., just that 100 marines are prob equivalent to 10 enemies each.

[Tynskel]

There's always talk of only 1000 marines in a chapter.

Some simple math:
1st Co. 100
2nd Co. 100
3nd Co. 100
4th Co. 100
5th Co. 100
6th Co. 100
7th Co. 100
8th Co. 100
9th Co. 100
10th doesn't count because they are scouts.

That only adds up to 900 Marines. Where is everyone else? Techmarines, Librarians, Chaplains, Honour Guard, Captains, and probably vehicle drivers make up the rest.

[Nabterayl]

I think it's pretty clear that 1,000 is not correct. Not even the codices list 1,000 marines, and I think the usual formula these days is "about 1,000 marines."

According to the latest codex, and assuming the battle and reserve companies are full strength (since we are only given hard numbers for 1st Co.), the Ultramarines have 1,005 marines (1,031 if you include dreadnoughts). That doesn't include any chaplains except for the Master of Sanctity, any scout sergeants (since we aren't told how many scout squads the chapter has), command squads (though it's not clear if the codex default is for command squads to be supernumerary to the company's "core" squads, so maybe the codex list isn't missing command squads), fleet personnel (which ordinarily are not a separate body, but in the Ultramarines seem to be), or the Spear of Macragge and his gallant fifty. So we're already over 1,000, and we know for sure that our count excludes some personnel.

The Blood Angels codex gives us a list of 1,057 marines (1,088 with dreadnoughts). That list includes chaplains, and assumes that the ten scout sergeants of 10th Co. can manage the chapter's 10 scout squads and the 56 neophytes in 10th Co. (which may not be true, depending on how aggressively the chapter deploys its scouts, so we might be missing a few sergeants). It doesn't include the Death Company, but otherwise seems pretty complete, since we have no reason to believe the Blood Angels have "off the books" formations like the Ultramarines seem to maintain. So ... again, over 1,000 marines.

So on the one hand, I don't think a full-strength codex chapter is 1,000 marines. There are clearly more than that in a codex chapter, at least on paper (and in reality, I imagine very few chapters can muster 1,000 able-bodied marines at any given time). On the other hand, as I think both these lists illustrate, we don't need to imagine many more than 1,000 marines. We know that the Imperium's Heinleinian obsession with having civilians perform non-combat roles that in every real world army are performed by uniformed soldiers carries over to the Astartes. So I think the picture we get is that a codex chapter's marine count consists of:

Chapter Master
Apothecarion
Honor Guard
Reclusiam
Logisticiam (containing equerries and servitors, but headed by a battle-brother)
Librarius
Armory
Veteran Company
4x Battle Companies
4x Reserve Companies
Scout Company (captain and sergeants only)
That's a chapter TO&E according to GW. Items 8-11 (the companies) will get you up to 920 marines without separate command squads (and I don't think a captain who is only responsible for 10 squads needs his own staff, since we know that the squad sergeants have administrative duties, though having an extra 4 guys would certainly help). Items 2-7 (the headquarters departments) plus the chapter master gets you a little over 1,000. And beyond that ... I don't think you actually need anything. Clearly even some "codex" chapters do have other dudes floating around, but I don't think the 11 items above are missing anything necessary. You could fight the chapter, as described in our sources (e.g., with 6th and 7th Co. providing most of your custodians, etc.) with just that list.

[Daemonette666]

By rights, you should never have a space marine Chapter at full strength. Battle casualties, new recruits having to be trained (not officially on the books), reserve companies to fill in gaps as required and man the special/ support weapons/drive vehicles, etc. Most Space Marine Chapters, unless they were running extremely high numbers of Scouts in their 10th company would be able to maintain their numbers.

I would expect some Chapters are running above the 1000 mark, and hide their actual numbers. Black Templars are a good example of this, but even those who follow the Ultramirine's FOC for their companies and Chapter would have ways of hiding their true force strength, and be able to have extra troops to replace losses.

I used to belong to a Support company (Signals Regiment) as part of the Australian regular Armies 1st Brigade. They were fully mechanised and had personnel from the Armoured corps who were trained in the use of ASLAVs, M113 APCs, and MBTs who would every 2 years be rotated from one assignment/ posting to another. They would either be part of the Cav unit, the Armoured tank unit or drive support Transports like M113s or Bushmasters about.

In my Regiment (1CSR), all the ASLAVs and tracked vehicles were operated by the Armoured corps troops, while we drove the Land Rover LWB 113 Perentes, and Bushmasters. I have been out of the military since 2007, so I do not know whether they are still mechanised, but I wold expect the Space Marines would use this method for organising their forces. Mechanised Infantry units would still have their full compliment of troops (less battlefield casualties) and the drivers would be armoured corps (Mechanicus/Techmarines) who are on the units books as attached personnel.

That is what I would expect them to do. Remember so many things have been ret-conned that you can not go by GW said in the past. They would have to release something more up to date detailing the full FOC and where they get their vehicular and other support staff from, and whether they are classified as part of the official 1000 Space Marines for the Chapter.

[Dlatrex]

Not to take away from the discussion at all (as the citations are simply brilliant! Great book-digging and research all around everyone), but I felt that it would be worth including an article written about a year ago concerning the '1,000 marine myth'.

http://sanitylost.forumotion.net/t1287-the-1000-marine-myth

Following many of the arguments presented, Blaze arrives at a figure of up to 1,512 astartes in the codex adherent Ultramarines. Now I think there are great arguments for a more parsimonious figure included in the current discussion, but i just wanted to make sure everyone had these figures available as well!

Selected excerpts:



"Five members of the HQ element together with 28 Librarians, 17 Apothecaries and 41 Techmarines gives us a total of 91 specialist (or apprentice specialist as these numbers also include trainees for each specialty) Marines, bringing our running total to 1175. It's clear that these supernumeraries are not considered to be part of the Companies by the manner in which the personnel table is laid out. Each is clearly identified as an individual support or command element in its own right and is not associated with any particular Company in any way."

[Wolfshade]

Blood Angels are codex adherent here is their chapter organisation http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Angels#Chapter_Organization
There are 150 in the HQ alone.

There was an article on BoLS ages ago but I don't recall it.

[Nabterayl]

When analyzing the lore of a space marine TO&E - like any time you analyze 40K lore, really - to some extent there's a threshold philosophical question you need to answer. That question is, "How sub-optimally can I believe this organization behaves?"

I don't think anybody [who has looked at the lore as written] thinks that a full-strength codex chapter is only 1,000 marines, even if we don't count scouts or dreadnoughts as "marines," but the bigger question is how capable a space marine chapter is (or we want it to be). When the sources seem to say, "No, really, the nine companies do every combat role," there's really no reason to believe that they can't. It just has consequences - the chapter will never deploy nine companies on foot, for instance. Can we accept that space marine chapters are so limited?

For me, personally, the answer is yes. Extraordinarily limited, extraordinarily over-qualified space marines are much more interesting to me than space marines chapters that can act like an army and have sensible occupational specialties, and in my mind fit the 40K oeuvre better. So I prefer to think that a truly literal, close-minded reading of the codex has no extra pilots, no extra fleet officers, no extra Rhino drivers, and no extra armory custodians, in the TO&E - all those jobs are performed by marines assigned to 1st through 9th Co. Less blinkered codex chapters, like the Ultramarines**, would be comfortable with expanding that a little bit - say, a small corps of supernumerary armory custodians and/or fleet officers. And at the extreme other end of the spectrum, we might have chapters who have specialist marines for virtually everything, from Rhino-driving to Thunderhawk piloting to serving as fleet officers.

* "Infantry" in the 40K sense; not the military sense.
** I know the Ultramarines are often held up as the most codex-compliant of codex chapters, but I don't think the lore actually presents them that way. I think the lore presents them as a chapter that reveres the codex more than most other chapters, but every piece of Ultramarines literature I've ever read suggests that they view the codex as something to be interpreted rather than blindly followed.

[Tynskel]

yeah, the codex is interpreted. There's a whole bit in the Space Marine game about that. Not to mention, Firewarrior. Don't forget the fact that gaining aide from the Imperium is becoming increasingly difficult on the outer rim, forcing the Ultramarines to adapt.

The Ultramarines are no longer the Goodie Goodie two shoes from 2nd edition.

[Nabterayl]

Re: command squads, as I just got my hands on the Dark Angels codex:

The Dark Angels codex says, "Command Squad - a hand-picked unit of the five most able Company Veterans. The Codex Astartes sanctions the formation of these units largely as bodyguards for key Masters of the Chapter."

Company Veterans are then described: "Each battle company from the 3rd to the 9th has a cadre of Space Marines who have been honoured in this way."

So this tells me two things about how the Codex describes command squads:
They're drawn from the company's ranks, rather than being supernumerary. A codex company is still 1 captain, 10 sergeants, and 90 "private" marines.
They're sanctioned, not prescribed. A company that consists of 1 captain and 10 squads of 10 is just as codex compliant as a company that consists of 1 captain, a command squad of 5, 9 squads of 10, and 1 squad of 5.

And as always, actual practice may vary.

[Rift Knight]

I think it's true it probably varies a great deal by chapter. For my personal chapter some vehicle crews come from the reserve companies but some are supernumanary. I (As Chapter Master) have decided that marines that have been selected to be trained by the Mechanicum are some of my vehicle crewman until they can be transported to Mars or whichever forgeworld they will be trained at. In the end who but another marine chapter can tell a chapter how they have to organize their forces. My Black Widow chapter has 13 companies, one specifically designated as a rapid deployment force with it's own Librium officers, Chaplins Scouts, Sniper Team(unique unit to my chapter), and Techmarines permanently assigned to it as well as it's Own Strike Cruiser also permanently assigned. Non Codex formations are not that uncommon. Look at the Space Wolves. Or how about the Black Templars who are in reality a functional legion rather then a chapter. In the end as long as the marines are loyal they are given a lot of leeway by Terra.