upper levels of ruins

[Forlornhope15]

I had an opponent tell me the other day that upper levels of ruins are not in fact area terrain. Only the bottom level is considered area terrain. The rest is just "ruins". I was rather surprised but since there is no good description of area terrain in the book, how do you guys play it.

The reason this is not just semantics is I was claiming the 2+ cover save when going to ground on the top story of a administratum building

Personally I think if its not open ground, not impassable, and has a clear boundary its area terrain this goes for all upper levels as well.

[Wolfshade]

A lot depends how you were playing it, I can see the argument for and against it.
If you rolled for difficult terrain each time you moved in that ruin then you are treating it all as area terrain. If you are just rolling for the ground floor then freely moving on the upper levels then you have deemed that level as not area terrain.

This is why it is important to discuss with oyur opponents what each building is. The way my friends and I usually play it is that ruins are not area terrain as they phyiscally represent what they are, whereas the forests are symbolic.

[Xenith]

Erm. Why would you argue with your opponent on this one?

Area terrain gives 5+ cover, ruins (including the top level) gives 4+. As long as there is a small wall or something there for your troops to hide behind. If your guys were just sitting on the very top of the building, waving, then they dont get cover. Remember that the enemy troops will unlikely be able to see the legs of dudes further back, so they get a save, while models standing on the edge in full view, would not.

Area terrain takes up..well..an area. If the ruin has a base, then the base is area terrain. If the ruin is directly on the table, then the ground floor is open terrain, and LOS is used to determine cover.

[Wolfshade]

The only thing I could think of is that the guys being shot at were in direct LoS (so no terrain to hide behind) and if it is just a ruin then they are not obscured so no cover save, whereas if it was Area Terrain then even though they had direct LoS they would still benefit from the save attributed to being in Areat Terrain.

[Lost Vyper]

We have tall ruins, with multiple floors and all of them are considered 4+ cover. This is just logic and it makes the game more enjoyable and easier to play...

[Caitsidhe]

I'm in agreement with a previous poster. In my area, something is considered "area" terrain if it has base, i.e. a footprint. If ruins are built on to that footprint you use whichever save is appropriate based on where the model is positioned. It is, thus, all area terrain at least and some is ruins. By contrast, if you set ruins out without the base (no footprint) you only get the save if the required 25% of your model is obstructed in LOS.

[Nabterayl]

The only thing I could think of is that the guys being shot at were in direct LoS (so no terrain to hide behind) and if it is just a ruin then they are not obscured so no cover save, whereas if it was Area Terrain then even though they had direct LoS they would still benefit from the save attributed to being in Areat Terrain.
That's the distinction, yeah. In answer to the OP, that's how my folks play it.

By default, standing in a ruin (not on the ground floor of a ruin with a base) doesn't grant you any cover at all. If you happen to be obscured by the ruin, you get a 4+ cover save, but you have to be 25% obscured from the firer's point of view.

Note page 98:


RUINS: THE BASICS
All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save. Players can also agree at the beginning of the game to treat some ruins as dangerous terrain as well, representing unstable structures on the verge of collapsing or that are still on fire. Of course, the nature of ruins means that the boundaries of the terrain can be somewhat indistinct. The best way to counter this is to ensure that both players are clear on the boundaries of each ruin before the game begins.

Ruins with Bases
A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain.

Ruins without Bases
If the ruin has not been mounted on a base, then the ground floor is not counted as either difficult terrain or area terrain. Of course, units still have to take Difficult Terrain tests if they move through the walls or if they climb to the upper floors.

Two things that might confuse people. First, "providing 4+ cover" (or any+ cover) doesn't mean you receive that cover all the time. You still need to be obscured, unless you're standing in Area Terrain. Second, while all Area Terrain is difficult terrain, the opposite is not true (cf. page 90).

While there's nothing wrong with players agreeing that all floors of a ruin are Area Terrain, or even Area Terrain that provides a 4+ cover save instead of the normal 5+, neither of those are prescribed by the rulebook. By default, if you're not on the ground floor of a based ruin, and your opponent can see you clearly, you receive no cover save at all.

[Wildcard]

In 5th whole ruins were area terrain with the 5ths rules shooting into / through etc.

In 6th those wordings were removed. So, here is how we play it (we have practically L shaped multi-storey ruins mounted on bases):

-Ground floor: area terrain, giving 5+ obscured as is general area terreain in 5th. Also gives +2 to cover save when gone to ground. It depends whether or not the 5+ general cover, or 4+ ruins cover will be used based on LoS and the position of the firer (since on L shaped it gives you both "walled front" and "open sided" front).

-Higher floors: You still move 2d6, pick highest when moving up and down (they are ruins with hazardous ledges and stuff anyway). Walled sections give that 4+ cover, but if enemy is able to flank you, and can see straight at you without any wall sections being shielding them, then there is no option for cover save. Also going ground doesn't improve cover save by 2.

Since we were playing it first like OP was, and were later tough how they really were, i am gonna point out the difference of 5th and 6th in that regard:
In 6th you can shoot all the way inside ruins (no more 6" rule for shooting in because of 'smoke and falling rubble'") as well as completely through them. Area terrain does not automatically give any cover save behind and outside of the area, unless its by LoS covered by something along the path.


Also, read the rules for ruins on page 98 again, as well as area terrain on p. 91:

P98:
Ruins with bases: A ruin might be mounted on a base... In this case treat the base as area terrain
Ruins without bases: If the ruin has not been mounted on a base, then the ground floor is not counted as either difficult or area terrain. Ofcourse, units still have to take difficult terrain test if they move through the walls or if they climb to the upper floors

p91: rules in whole area terrain, especially LoS -related stuff..

[JMichael]

Thanks for this thread. I didn't realize that the upper levels only gave the save if you were obscured, was still playing them as area terrain.

[Azrell]

even if you counted the upper levels as area terrain you can only claim a cover save from ETHER the area terrain or the ruins. so going to ground would give you a 4+ with a +1 for going to ground, 3+ or you get a 5+ with a +2 for going to ground,3+. Its the same save ether way.

[Forlornhope15]

even if you counted the upper levels as area terrain you can only claim a cover save from ETHER the area terrain or the ruins. so going to ground would give you a 4+ with a +1 for going to ground, 3+ or you get a 5+ with a +2 for going to ground,3+. Its the same save ether way.

Thanks for the clarification guys, I think my hangup was I was thinking ruins were a type of area terrain. Clearly not the case

well put by the way Azrell

[Daemonette666]

If you can only claim the cover save for ruins if you are behind the wall, and not if the enemy can see your whole model, then I would not play on a table if the enemy player set the terrain up so all your buildings were facing so you get no cover when they shoot at you from their deployment zone. I would set up a second piece of ruins to provide cover from the rear (like an box with no roof) for ruins in my deployment zone.

I tend to set terrain up in my deployment zone like this, and let the enemy set up terrain in their deployment zone as they want (providing they do not have something like 10 or 15 ruined building in their small deployment zone). I then have us each put some piece of terrain down in the DMZ, until there is enough terrain (but not too much).

Realistically there should be no more than 25% of the table covered with added terrain features (forests, rubble, tank traps, ruins, etc) as it slows the game down with slow movement, and you can design a fortress in a small section with huge fields of open ground as a kill zone. There should not be less than about 15% coverage though, as a table too open makes a shooty army too strong - see my kill zones comment.