Lessons from Eldar, Game One

[ElectricPaladin]

Today I played my first game with the Eldar! I didn't end up using any of the lists I've posted - it was a team game, me and IG, 1250 each, against 2500 points of Chaos Space Marines. We lost, but it was a close fight.

Here are the lessons I have learned:
• The Eldar are still powerful, but they are also very, very strange. They require delicate risk-assessment and the willingness to lose big and sacrifice models.
• The greatest strength of the Eldar codex seems to be its mobility. The fact that I can put a wave serpent up to 30 inches away from its initial position - and with a 4+ cover save to protect it when it gets there - is a powerful advantage when I can make it work for me.
• Bright lances cannot hit the broad side of a freaking barn. I need more of them if I want to ever achieve anything.
• Wave serpents are awesome.
• Fire dragons are awesome.
• Dire avengers are a solid Troops choice, and there's very little that will survive a bladestorm to the face completely unscathed... but if you want to make sure it goes down and stays there, you need to soften the target up with other units, first.
• Warp spiders are underwhelming. Further investigation is necessary to determine if they are really worth it.

That's all for now... I'll post again when I have more thoughts on the matter.

[Psyfer]

I agree with most of your points, except the one on Warp Spiders.

Warp Spiders are brutal against non-space marines, and a big squad of them can threaten power armoured troops (but I wouldn't rely on them). If everyone in your area's playing SM or CSM, then yes, they're not the best choice. if you've got some 'nid horde, Ork or IG players in the area, they'll be wary of them, the sheer amount of S6 firepower combined with their high mobility can be a battle winner.

Admittedly, they are a very circumstantial unit, they'll either do really well or not at all depending on what you're facing. Swooping Hawks are in much the same boat. If you want more heavy infantry slaying ability, Dark Reapers are very solid (if expensive), and Pathfinder Rangers can be nasty as well, but both units lack mobility.

[Xenith]

Today I played my first game with the Eldar! I didn't end up using any of the lists I've posted - it was a team game, me and IG, 1250 each, against 2500 points of Chaos Space Marines. We lost, but it was a close fight.

Here are the lessons I have learned:
• The Eldar...require...the willingness to lose big and sacrifice models.
• Bright lances cannot hit the broad side of a freaking barn. I need more of them if I want to ever achieve anything.
• Warp spiders are underwhelming. Further investigation is necessary to determine if they are really worth it.

•As long as those models are 1-2jetbikes. You're a dying race, make the enemy sacrifice their models, be the aggressor!

•What platforms are you using the lances on? BL's are pretty rubbish as it stands, Scatter lasers deal with AV12 and below better, dragons deal with AV13 and above better. Both options are cheaper. If you want BL to work, you need to seriously, seriously spam them, like 6XTLBL on serpents in a mech eldar force.

• My spiders have always done well. Use their mobility to get around units to the characters/special weapons, then nuke them. Jump away into space. To kill them, my opponent always has to devote proportionally too many resources.

[eldargal]

What Xenith said. Bright lances aren't worth taking at all, Fire Dragons pop AV13-14 more effectively and scatter lasers pop AV10-12 more effectively and are cheaper allowing you to spend more points elswhere.

I find Warp Spiders to be effective in groups of ten. Lots of S6 shots on a highly mobile platform is really what eldar are all about now. You can mince most transports or thin out units before an assault and ith Hammer of Wrath you can usually hold your own in an assault against most units (except perhaps TH/SS terminators and the like, and no eldar nit shouldn't be going toe to toe with them).

[ElectricPaladin]

What platforms are you using the lances on? BL's are pretty rubbish as it stands, Scatter lasers deal with AV12 and below better, dragons deal with AV13 and above better. Both options are cheaper. If you want BL to work, you need to seriously, seriously spam them, like 6XTLBL on serpents in a mech eldar force.


What Xenith said. Bright lances aren't worth taking at all, Fire Dragons pop AV13-14 more effectively and scatter lasers pop AV10-12 more effectively and are cheaper allowing you to spend more points elswhere.

I forgot to mention - did find that those scatter lasers were crazy effective. Even without psychic support, a salvo of scatter lasers was able to glance a defiler to death in two tries.

At the moment, I've got a lance on a falcon, and that's it. I've got the bits for it, though - maybe I'll try spamming lances on wave serpents. Or perhaps I'll give up on lances entirely and try relying on fire dragons. They never made it into contact with the enemy - except for that one berserker they roasted - but they look extremely effective on paper. Perhaps the problem was that they were riding in the falcon, which wanted to hang back and shoot with its pulse laser and bright lance - scornergy with the meltaguns the dragons were carrying.


I find Warp Spiders to be effective in groups of ten. Lots of S6 shots on a highly mobile platform is really what eldar are all about now. You can mince most transports or thin out units before an assault and ith Hammer of Wrath you can usually hold your own in an assault against most units (except perhaps TH/SS terminators and the like, and no eldar nit shouldn't be going toe to toe with them).


My spiders have always done well. Use their mobility to get around units to the characters/special weapons, then nuke them. Jump away into space. To kill them, my opponent always has to devote proportionally too many resources.


Warp Spiders are brutal against non-space marines, and a big squad of them can threaten power armoured troops (but I wouldn't rely on them). If everyone in your area's playing SM or CSM, then yes, they're not the best choice. if you've got some 'nid horde, Ork or IG players in the area, they'll be wary of them, the sheer amount of S6 firepower combined with their high mobility can be a battle winner.


In my full 1850 list, I have a squad of 10 of 'em. I'll see how they fare when I get to use the full squad. Maybe spiders are only worth it when I can field the full unit, and not worth it as a small unit. This is intuitive, as they rely on weight of fire to take down enemies, rather than hits that penetrate armor.

Marines and Chaos Marines are both popular in my meta, but so is Guard, and there's this one Ork player I've never had a chance to play. There's also a Dark Eldar player, and I imagine they spiders would make mincemeat of them.


As long as those models are 1-2jetbikes. You're a dying race, make the enemy sacrifice their models, be the aggressor!

It's hard to see how to make that happen. Eldar weapons have such short ranges that in order to commit a unit, I have to stick it right in there. Dire Avengers seem like the epitome of this. They are incredibly effective at 18'', but in order to be fully effective, they have to bladestorm, which leaves them vulnerable to assault and useless next turn. I've read that it's a matter of synergy and picking your targets - probably I need to be cagier, play more cautiously, spend more time using my superior mobility to avoid conflict until I've whittled the target down.

[Lupercal]

I don't play in tournaments, but I have played Eldar for about ten years. I play an aggressive harassment style that works well (in friendly games, at least). I think it's different than what most people do with Eldar, so you may find it interesting.

I generally use 2 units of 5xRanger Pathfinders, a unit of 20xGuardian Defenders with Scatter Laser and Warlock, a unit of 6xJetbikes with 2 cannons and Warlock, and a unit of 10xDire Avengers. Also, Wraithlord and Avatar, 10xWarp Spiders, 3xVypers and either Dark Reapers or Fire Prism.

With a list laid out like this, I can harass the enemy from afar with the Wraithlord, Vypers, Reapers or Prism, the Defenders' SL, and the crazy accurate shooting from the Pathfinders. I can also harass at medium to close range with the mobile Jetbikes and Spiders. In my experience, my opponent tends to have problems figuring out target priority because he's getting cut to ribbons from every direction. If the opponent gets close to my lines, he then has to deal with the Guardians (40 S 4 AP 5 shots is no joke) and the Dire Avengers. The MC's are there to draw fire and do their jobs as the opportunity arises.

There are other things that may appear in such a list, like a 5- man Seer Council with a Farseer, but the above is the core. Hope you found this interesting and/or thought-provoking.

[Anggul]

It's hard to see how to make that happen. Eldar weapons have such short ranges that in order to commit a unit, I have to stick it right in there. Dire Avengers seem like the epitome of this. They are incredibly effective at 18'', but in order to be fully effective, they have to bladestorm, which leaves them vulnerable to assault and useless next turn. I've read that it's a matter of synergy and picking your targets - probably I need to be cagier, play more cautiously, spend more time using my superior mobility to avoid conflict until I've whittled the target down.

Don't be fooled into thinking you have to Bladestorm, only Jump Infantry are likely to get you from 18" away. I don't even buy Bladestorm, you're usually better off being able to shoot in both turns while avoiding close combat.

The reason you're finding it hard to keep them alive is mainly because in 5th edition, 18" Assault 2 was excellent, as most others only had 12" range if they moved because of Rapid Fire. Due to the change to Rapid Fire, 18" Assault 2 is now a bit underwhelming when Marines can move and fire 24", and Tau 30". This means they can keep out of your range and pretty much always win a sustained firefight, hence the need to get right up in their face to deal damage now. Hopefully the 6th ed codex will increase Avenger Shuriken Catapult range to 24", but we shall see.

[Xenith]

It's hard to see how to make that happen. Eldar weapons have such short ranges that in order to commit a unit, I have to stick it right in there. Dire Avengers seem like the epitome of this. They are incredibly effective at 18'', but in order to be fully effective, they have to bladestorm, which leaves them vulnerable to assault and useless next turn. I've read that it's a matter of synergy and picking your targets - probably I need to be cagier, play more cautiously, spend more time using my superior mobility to avoid conflict until I've whittled the target down.

Jetbikes have the 24" cannon, don't move into 12" range for the catapults unless there is literally 1-2 models left in the target unit/you have to speedbump them.

Bladestorm is a false friend. If you have them in a serpent, you can Jump out, BS, then jump back in for no loss. If you think you may lose the serpent, or get assaulted next turn, save the BS for overwatch.

Remember, BS'ing, you get 3shots/model over 2 turns. Non-BS'ing you get 4/model. Only use it when charging or being charged if you are running them on foot, or if you really need to wipe a unit and the extra 10 shots will statistically do it.

[Warpspider89]

Here are the lessons I have learned:
• The Eldar are still powerful, but they are also very, very strange. They require delicate risk-assessment and the willingness to lose big and sacrifice models.
• The greatest strength of the Eldar codex seems to be its mobility. The fact that I can put a wave serpent up to 30 inches away from its initial position - and with a 4+ cover save to protect it when it gets there - is a powerful advantage when I can make it work for me.
• Bright lances cannot hit the broad side of a freaking barn. I need more of them if I want to ever achieve anything.

That's all for now... I'll post again when I have more thoughts on the matter.

1) I totally agree with your assessment. Playing Eldar is a different beast entirely than playing most other armies since it is so difficult to hold objectives. Its more like you are playing against the mind, its reason and emotions, of your opponent rather than their army. Every move is to confuse, to misdirect, and to create self-doubt; all of this is to create those openings to pick them apart.

2) Eldar can be massively mobile but they also play the monster army, in the form of the Elfzilla, well too depending on what you like. I like a more hammer and anvil style army like that myself. I still use it, plus other distractions, to do what I said about. In that fashion the main difference is that my individual threats are greater than they would be in a speed army, excluding jetseer councils.

3) Yet I have one shotted a landraider on multiple occasions with them. Still, they can be a little costly. I recommend guiding them, I put them on my Wraithlords who are usually around psychic support for wraithsight, or possibly getting one for the turret of a wave serpent, since I agree those tanks are rather resilient.

[ElectricPaladin]

Interesting feedback. I should definitely consider putting a big blob of guardian jetbikes in next time. Maybe they would a good escort for a jetseer. That would also let me put my powerful support psyker in a unit that can protect him as he jets around boosting various shooters, while they take on targets of opportunity with their shuriken catapults. In fact, I have a unit of six guardian jetbikes, with three catapults, already built... hm...

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, to add responses to Warpspider89's post (freaking Internet going down for no good reason...):

• I'm definitely interested in exploring Elfzilla, but I'll need to get my hands on a wraithlord for that, and that's going to take a while.
• It never occurred to me to guide (well, prescience) the falcon instead of the fire dragons... Damn, I should have been doing that all along. It would have been a totally different game if the pulse laser and bright lance had been twin-linked... I might very well have taken out that land raider! That's a mistake I won't make again.

[Archon Charybdis]

1.) To second what Eldargal said and what was raised in some of your other army list threads--Lances aren't bad weapons, they're just terrible for what they cost in an Eldar army, and for how few you can really take. Unlike DE who have cheap Ravagers and Trueborne, and get a Lance with every transport (and I think they're even still a bit overpriced) Eldar are expected to pay out the *** for them often at only BS3.

Fire Dragons and Scatter Lasers cover the two ends of the anti-armor spectrum quite efficiently and for a lot cheaper. Also, to your point, putting them in the Falcon that you want sitting back at 48" to plink away from a safe distance is a bad transport for the Fire Dragons. I'd put them in a cheap wave serpent with the TL-shuricannon only (maybe spirit stones) and just go flat-out. You don't necessarily need or want to move up unsupported on turn 1 to right in front of your opponent, but dragons are going to draw a lot of fire wherever they are and you want that 4+ cover save.

2.) I would also say don't discount Spiders so soon. It might be you just had a bad game with them, but that kind of volume of S6 fire is a cure-all for just about anything besides AV14 all-around. They're also fairly resilient as far as Eldar go.

[Tynskel]

2.) I would also say don't discount Spiders so soon. It might be you just had a bad game with them, but that kind of volume of S6 fire is a cure-all for just about anything besides AV14 all-around. They're also fairly resilient as far as Eldar go.

and highly maneuverable.

[eldargal]

You can also Deep Strike Warp Spiders with the exarch ability which makes them extra mobile. Also good for getting behind particularly nasty tanks in IG armies.

I think I'd be willing to pay 12-15 points for a bright lance with BS3 as it stands now, they aren't worth more.

[Warpspider89]

You can also Deep Strike Warp Spiders with the exarch ability which makes them extra mobile. Also good for getting behind particularly nasty tanks in IG armies.

I think I'd be willing to pay 12-15 points for a bright lance with BS3 as it stands now, they aren't worth more.

All Jetpack troops come with Deepstrike. Purchasing an ability that would allow those units to deepstrike would be redundant and, therefore, a waste of points.

[eldargal]

It allows them to deep strike when the mission would otherwise prevent it, which is the ability I was referring to, sorry I wasn't more clear. IE you can still deep strike your warp spiders even when your opponent is expecting that you won't be able too. Of course this assumes you're using missions where this is a factor, a lot of people just seme to use the same one or two missions over and over.:(

[ElectricPaladin]

It allows them to deep strike when the mission would otherwise prevent it, which is the ability I was referring to, sorry I wasn't more clear. IE you can still deep strike your warp spiders even when your opponent is expecting that you won't be able too. Of course this assumes you're using missions where this is a factor, a lot of people just seme to use the same one or two missions over and over.:(

Yeah... I could see myself buying that Exarch power if I went to a tournament known for using idiosyncratic missions. Otherwise, though, you're right - like the Terminator "we can always Deep Strike" power, it's not usually going to come into play.

[Dave Mcturk]

poor eldar, still pretty, still effective with a bit of luck, but so overpointed as to be SAD.

DE can have a floaty super shooty ship with lots of bonuses at BS4 for virtually nothing, eldar have to pay through the nose for BS3 and half the shots !

CSM bikers are cheaper than GJB

Orcz are cheaper than grundians.

BUT its still FUN, especially when your fragons whack out a monolith or landraider on T1, or the WARPZ all land in the right spot and fry every one in his car park, or a few DZloks just burn the whole blob of cultists off their juggernaut.

the ONLY army IMO thats more FUN is ORKZZ. ... waaghh

[deaddice]

All Jetpack troops come with Deepstrike. Purchasing an ability that would allow those units to deepstrike would be redundant and, therefore, a waste of points.

I know its been a long time since i read the eldar codex but i though warp spiders were jump packs not jet packers?

[White Tiger88]

I know its been a long time since i read the eldar codex but i though warp spiders were jump packs not jet packers?

Yes but if i remember right they still move as jump packers.......