Tactical Squads

[Schultzhoffen]

Is it just me, or do other people think CC weapons on Tac Sergeants are a waste? I get the feeling that a solitary power weapon or power fist is not going to be much help v dedicated assault units and probably not needed against IG, Tau, etc. Furthermore, Tac Squads should avoid combat if at all possible, do the odd bit of shooting and take objectives (at least that's how I see it). Therefore, they should be fairly cheap.

The next question is: what is the best way to equip the squad? I like a combi melta or Plasma for Sgt and melta or plasma and a Multi melta. Oh, and Rhino Mech all the way?

My tac squads come in after the heavy hitters and hold ground. They're mainly defensive.

How do other people equip and use their squads?

I believe that a MM is the default heavy weapon of choice (followed by a Missile Laucher). Any thoughts about that?

Enlighten me, gentlemen (and ladies).

[emperorsaxe]

The two tac squads in my SM army are led by vet sgt's who are both armed with power weapons and storm bolters. I'am however starting to rethink the issue with the storm bolters tho'. They add the extra die for shooting but in the trade off I lose one attack because of it. As to the two CC weps I'd drop the chainsword and at the very least go with a power wep. The one thing I'm not to hip to is the powerglove on the vet sgt it looks cool and all but IMHO striking last in close combat is a drawback especially against swarm type armies. On the heavy wep choices subject I can't help ya there as I run my tac squads without a heavy wep. Just my two bolter rounds worth tho'.
Respects, Emperorsaxe

[eagleboy7259]

Not at all!! I love the CC's on my Vet. Sarge. You have to figure that to get the most effect out of your squads you'll typically be around 24" from the enemy squad. Decent chance that the enemy will be able to reach you in a turn or two depending on the unit, and if the enemy isn't a dedicated assault specailist, then you usually have a decent chance to assault them and win.

Heavy Weapons? only in a combat squad. No reason to waste your 9 bolters for one missile shot. And either the Rhino or Drop Pod

[DarkLink]

Powerfists are useful, as it gives the unit the ability to threaten IC's and Dreadnoughts, as well as taking down a few assaulters.

Power weapons are pretty much not worth the points, though.

[Slann]

P. fists go better on sgt. than IC do to the fact you have to kill all the marines befor you get to that fist , which can auto kill most IC , get threw light armor . and wound big bugs .

[Vince]

Power Weapon is a total waste. 2 power weapon attacks at str 4 ws 4 int 4 is crap. Powerfist can be good. If you run a lot of tactical squads most likely you will be moving one or two towards objectives on the enemy side. These squads can use a fist. I would not give a fist for any squad you intend to babysit objectives on your side. There is nothing better then putting a power fist sergeant on a IC and watching him instant death it.

[fuzzbuket]

why dont you try this:
10 marines,power fist 1meltagun, 1mm/las/missle

combat squids
1 sits on objective and shoots, (pref a objective FAR away in your deployment)
1goes tank+MC+IC hunting :D

if in drop pod no combat squids , hide behind pod and shoot, till no more H-weapon targets, then run to objective:p

my not-so-game-winning-theroie (sorry for spelling)

Fuzzbuket

[RogueGarou]

Well, there's the rub, isn't it? Just my views on Sergeants and their kit but here goes. Sergeants have been kitted out differently than their charges since 2nd Ed when I started playing. I'm used to that idea and it can be seen as fluffy and even somewhat sensible as the NCO has other duties than the troopers under his command. Once upon a time, you WERE REQUIRED to buy a power axe for a Long Fangs Pack Leader. That was the rule. You would probably have to try to get a bolter on a sergeant or have a dedicated assault element to get a pistol and true close combat weapon on anyone else. That may be the difference in things now. Old ruleset said every single model was equipped with a combat knife or similar implement of massively destructive potential. But if you had a true close combat weapon, a sword, axe, pike, halberd, chain weapon, power weapon, etc. you got bonuses to your close quarters capability. Newer rulesets have classed all of the melee weapons into close combat weapon description to speed things up and streamline it a bit. Cool beans.

The sergeant, to me, is envisioned as every hard as nails movie NCO you have ever seen. He leads his men by being the toughest guy in the squad and he carries out his orders. He has a different role within the squad than standing on the firing line and gunning down the enemy; he walks the line barking orders and kicking the bad guys off the parapet so his boys can pour some more fire into the baddies. He carries a chainsword almost like he wears his chevrons and rockers. He stands out. Since this is a fantasy game, he carries a sword or other weapon to kind of fulfill a chivalrous role similar to the idea of a knight. You could also think of the sergeant in a line squad as a kind of special weapon trooper. While all of the soldiers have learned basic knife fighting or bayonet drill, he was singled out to learn a bit of wu shu chainsword or tae kwon axe-in-your-face. Trooper Jenkins learned how to try and not melt his own face off with a plasma gun. They each have different jobs with the equipment to carry out those jobs. Because of his senior status, the sergeant is also tasked with something the rest of the troopers might not want to do: get up close and personal and risk having limbs lopped off.

The close combat sergeant is there to take the close combat fighting to the enemy that gets within the AO of the squad. It is supposed to be decisive and serve to ward off the half-hearted close assaults of troops who are not dedicated to fighting at close quarters. It is there for flexibility. A Tactical Squad has it for flexibility. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a Space Marine or any other sergeant to strap a sword on his hip and trade in his rifle for a carbine or pistol, he has to carry maps and other equipment as well as handle the leadership of his squad after all. While the rest of the guys are establishing fire lanes, he is receiving orders from a lieutenant or higher ranked NCO and may be quite busy minding to those duties.

That said, though, I do not always use the close combat weapon option on sergeants if I do not have to use it. For example, I shy away from it in Guard squads and not having the option of my sergeants carrying a rifle is the only thing I don't really like about the new Codex. With the last Codex, I quite happily fielded all of my line squads with 10 lasguns. My commissioned officers and commissars carried the close-in gear. I also do not normally take power fists in Guard squads because of the lower strength and initiative cost. Some people like them just fine in Guard squads, though.

For a general line squad, I think if you are taking a close combat weapon and you have the option, take a power weapon. It is very useful to ignore armor saves and can damage even character models. Power Fists, Chain Fists, and Lightning Claws are up to your personal choice and points restrictions but they can be useful for making a neat looking model that stands out in the squad and they can give the squad a bit of punch when they get into a situation they would be unable to handle otherwise. For example, your sergeant has a Power Fist and is about to get charged by an Ironclad Dreadnought. You expect to be losing a couple of troopers in just a moment (after the flamer and/or Storm Bolter hits) but you have high hopes of mauling that big metal monstrosity with your 2D6+X hits. Without that chance to hurt the Dread, your squad will be slowly, or not so slowly,torn to shreds. (Remember that Telion and Vindicare users, you can eliminate a squad under the right conditions by just shooting the guy with the correct equipment, vox operators in Guard armies are good choices, too.) Don't forget that the power weapon attacks could mean you actually get to wound Terminators instead of them saving on a 2+. My local group has had more and more Assault Terminators showing up of late and that has become a more important factor.

The CCW adds character to a model and to its squad as well as serving a role on the table. It is a special weapon trooper that lets you hit a little harder on the charge or it may be the most important weapon your squad has in the right circumstances. Just my opinion on things.

[Aldramelech]

Yep, Agree with all of that.

[ggg]

In my 1500 point army I use two tactical squads. Squad A- in a rhino, kitted with flamer, missile and chainsword / boltpistol sgt. The other is B squad, melta gun, multi melta, powerfist bolt gun sgt in a drop pod. The rhino squad don't need the power weapon. Their roles are determined by their wargear. Squad A, is used aggressively against horde units or sits at the back on objectives being cheap, where elite opponets are encountered. Unit B takes the other route- drop pod in and get into the face of elite / armour opponents or drop pod cautiously against hordes. The cheaper squad does tend to get ignored but the flamer is such a soild performer when supported by bolter fire

As I use Pedro Contor I do on occassion, get to use My Tactical squads as assault troops as well - stubborn with an extra attack due to his proximity. The power weapon did not give enough bang for its buck- If there were more Necron players that might be different, so I dropped it for bp and cc. If I had the points I would however, take a combi weapon for squad B to make the most of that first post drop shooting.

For me they are are nicely resilient scoring units that can be deloyed where needed. I always give them a transport and the ability to combat squad is great. Between them, they can do everything - both squads have a st 8 anti tank weapon, close combat resilience and mobility. The power weapon is not so important. I don't like plasma weapons simply because they can't deal with heavy armour, don't instant kill, are expensive and risk killing the firer. The power fist does make enemy characters think twice about charging, deals with most vehicles admirably but is too expensive to have in all units and is a hinderence against horde squads with lower initative. I don't think that a tactical squad can be equipped without considering their 'buddy' units.'

A lot of the better players I come up against use lascannons on their tactical squads and I might look into using them in my future armies- the range is a real attraction when facing so much armour 12 -12 mech transports.

[Melissia]

Considering that many people are willing to pay 25 points just to get an eviscerator on a Sister Superior-- whom has 3 in her relevant assault stats, IE S/I/WS-- and manage to get results with it... I'd say that the power fist, which is on a model with MEQ, it's cheaper, and you have tougher models as meat shields to guard the carrier... um, yeah, it makes a big difference.

[Schultzhoffen]

A lot of interesting (and insightful comments). However, I've found that if my dedicated assault units, Ironclad, and shooty elements (Vindicators, LSpeeders, etc) can't handle the enemy I'm done for, anyway. A Powerfist in the Tac squad will not change the game.

As I said, my hard stuff takes ground, my Tac Squads hold ground. There are situations when the Power Fist/Weapon comes in handy but I've found that an extra Assault Terminator is much more useful.

The answer is probably in what your army is designed to do and how it is built, ie, I prefer that each unit have a specific role. I like the flexibility of Tac Squads but their lack of speciality hurts them. A while ago I saw a Marine army with 6 Tac Squads butchered in CC with Black Templars. Tac Squads are mediocre in CC (something I knew, anyway). Terminators (even assault marines) are better in CC and vehicles or Dev Squads are better at shooting.

Having said all this, the 25-75 points for Power Fists and Weapons in 3 Tac Squads would be better spend elsewhere (in my opinion).

Thanks for the comments.

[eagleboy7259]

Well thats just the thing, if there is a low point to the Space Marine Army List, its the Tactical Squads. Like you said every unit on the board should have something close to a specialized role, not quite Eldar "if I don't have the right match up I'm boned" specialization but indeed a purpose. That's why people love the special chapters, "I dont need Tactical Squads I have: Crusaders/ Assault Squads / Deathwing / Ravenwing / Grey Hunters / Blood Claws" Unfortunately, as Space Marines, we're boned into using Tactical Squads as our usual troops and scoring units.

[Aeirling of Steirm Canoir]

I understand why people buy powerfists for tactical squads. Str8 is pretty good for taking down transports, especially considering that all attacks are made as if from the rear and most transports have weak back armor.

Power weapons seem like a less sound investment.

[DarkLink]

Considering that many people are willing to pay 25 points just to get an eviscerator on a Sister Superior-- whom has 3 in her relevant assault stats, IE S/I/WS-- and manage to get results with it... I'd say that the power fist, which is on a model with MEQ, it's cheaper, and you have tougher models as meat shields to guard the carrier... um, yeah, it makes a big difference.

Eviserators FTW :D

I once had a 20 sister squad (used as an objective holder in a team game) caught by a Daemon Prince and eaten over the course of several turns. It was the one time I'd decided not to take an Eviserator. I'll never make that mistake again.

[Katie Drake]

In my opinion power fists are vital for most Tactical Squad builds. It takes a unit that's really not a credible threat in close combat and makes it able to cause damage to anything in the game. Sure, a Veteran Sergeant packing a power fist isn't the most effective model in the Codex and sure, it won't win you combats against dedicated assault units, but the difference between a unit with a fist and one without is that the one with a fist can at least cause some causalities in return before biting the dust, therefore weakening the enemy unit and making the rest of your army's job easier. I also like 'em for beating on Monstrous Creatures, especially ones that aren't all that suited to close combat (like many Carnifexes).

[krispy]

i guess im pretty boring in comparisson to you all - my tac squads are pretty plain

Rhino (of course)
Heavy Weapon - depending on what i may meet ML or MM
Special Weapon - meltagun / flamer depending on what i may meet
bolters on all marines
Sgt - bolter and Melta Bombs

i weighed the combi melta option up for the sgt and one shot just isnt worth the points cost - the melta bombs lets the squad charge vehicles and grenade them - 9 krak grenades and a melta bomb = win imho

i dont mind not using the Power Fist - the way i see it tac squads are pretty all round and if im close enough to fight a vehicle / walker then a melta bomb and a handful of krak grenased will do the trick better.

[Chumbalaya]

If you have combat squads, I don't consider it mandatory. You can easily get out of assault and keep on shooting, but you should have been in your Rhino all the time anyway.

If you're saddled with stubborn or just don't have combat tactics, PF look a lot nicer since you have no way out of combat. Or it's even more reason to stay in your transport.

I don't consider 2 S8 attacks all that impressive really. You might get a kill or two, but dedicated assaulters will still hand you your bum on a platter.

[MarshalAdamar]

When you look at the wounds you inflict you average more wounds over the combat by wounding on 2's than you 4's. Plus people are less likely to charge a unit with a power fist with their IC because he can be insta killed by the S8 power weapon. Add in popping transports for the win!

I was in a tourney yesterday, I had my 20 man crusader squad led by chaplain on my objective and my opponent raced a rhino in to contest. I was able to destroy the rhino with the PF and was poised for the win. However, I detached my chaplain to run down a FLEEING single marine (STUPID) and left my squad open to taking the damned leader ship test which they failed (on round 7) fled off the objective and I lost!

But I digress, point is the PF allowed me to win! Until I made myself lose. With out that I would have lost anyway because I would have had nothing to get rid of the transport.

[eagleboy7259]

I don't consider 2 S8 attacks all that impressive really.

2 Attacks + 1 for Power Fist and Pistol... you're doing better than your basic terminator :p

[Katie Drake]

2 Attacks + 1 for Power Fist and Pistol... you're doing better than your basic terminator :p

Except that the model needs two power fists in order to gain the +1A bonus.

[Ming]

I typically use the classic 10-man, las-plas, PF kit. I am looking at the merits of mm-mg-pw-mb squads though. The MBs are just a hopeful addition if I get assaulted by a dread or Kan and need that extra assist to try and get out of trouble. I'm finding that the MB issue does not help as much as PFs though. PFs can be used on walkers and ICs...better chance of wounding ICs. The big thing is to last till the I1 attacks.

[eagleboy7259]

Except that the model needs two power fists in order to gain the +1A bonus.

Whattt...? Since when? I thought that was a lightning claws only type of thing

[Nabterayl]

Whattt...? Since when? I thought that was a lightning claws only type of thing

Since 5th edition. Check out page 42.

[SombreBrotherhood]

I used to never put power fists in my tactical squads, until I was in the same tourney w/ Adamar (and I'm the one who he mentions, BTW)

It was my last game that cemented it, though, kill points vs. mech guard. All 3 tac squads were melta, missile, power fist/bolt pistol. After his melta vets took out my LRC and the assault termies met a standard Russ and Demolisher, I HAD to use my tactical boys to clean up, something I wouldn't have been able to do without that PF toting Sarge and his squaddies with krak grenades, of all things. Now I have to go about and shelve all my PW/PP/BP sergeants and come up with enough power fists...have to say I'm sold. Versus walkers, you really only have to watch out for them charging you, when every hit will probably wound. After that, 2 CC attacks hitting on 4+ isn't quite as frightening. With the exception of MEQ walkers and Ork Dreds (though this quick list is by no means exhaustive), you generally hit that enemy walker on a 3+, and that's when you get to see your PF sarge shine.

On the other hand, in 3 games, the missile launchers fired exactly four times. Granted, I only had one chance to combat squad, but the ML was free after all, and if I needed him to fire his BP, he still had it. The occassional flexibility is, I think, worth the loss of Bolter Joe.

[eagleboy7259]

Since 5th edition. Check out page 42.

So it does... I always took that to mean that a model with a power fist and power weapon can't get a +1 attack because its two different types of combat weapons. So you can't create monsters that could whack tanks and dreads on one turn and then abuse I5 on the next. Silly that nobody had corrected me until now...

[RogueGarou]

If the model can be equipped with a Power Weapon and a Power Fist, I think you still can do what you are saying, Eagleboy, you just do not get the +1 A on either weapon. You have to chose which special close combat weapon ability you are using if I recall the rule correctly. For some squads, I will often select a Power Fist only after equipping everything else if there are enough points left over. For instance, Noise Marines or Raptors with a Slaanneshi Icon. For those squads I will try to get as many Power Weapons as possible and try to avoid Dreadnoughts. The bonus of striking at I5 and getting to ignore a bunch of armor saves is worth it to me a lot of the time. But I sometimes wind up regretting that when they need the Fist and it isn't there. That has proven bothersome on a few occasions with my Thousand Sons Marines.

[Evil-Termite]

Is it just me, or do other people think CC weapons on Tac Sergeants are a waste?It's not just you.

I get the feeling that a solitary power weapon or power fist is not going to be much help v dedicated assault units and probably not needed against IG, Tau, etc. Furthermore, Tac Squads should avoid combat if at all possible, do the odd bit of shooting and take objectives (at least that's how I see it). Therefore, they should be fairly cheap.I agree with you 100%


The next question is: what is the best way to equip the squad? I like a combi melta or Plasma for Sgt and melta or plasma and a Multi melta. Oh, and Rhino Mech all the way?My current answer is melta gun and plasma cannon in a rhino. It's almost bare bones cheap, but the extra 10 points get you much more useful weapons. Melta guns give my squad a chance to kill the big AV and they have a better range on the melta than a MM. Rhino moves 12", disembark 2.8", and melta range 6". That's a a 20.8" range and it can go around a corner. Tac squads can usually charge forward with the rest of my army, but if they have to stay back to avoid close combat, the plasma cannons have good range and have high strength and low AP.


My tac squads come in after the heavy hitters and hold ground. They're mainly defensive.Yup, that's what mine do too.




I believe that a MM is the default heavy weapon of choice (followed by a Missile Laucher). Any thoughts about that?Yes. The missile launchers aren't strong enough to be good at killing vehicles, and don't do anything against carnifexes that have 2+ armor. The blast from the missile launcher isn't strong enough to get a lot of wounds and the AP is pretty worthless and does not negate Feels No Pain.
The multi-melta is a terrible heavy weapon for a tac squad. It can't move and shoot, and if something big is coming at you (like a monstrous creature) you only get one shot at range before it's going to be able to assault you. Since it's a heavy weapon you can't move and shoot it which makes the regular melta gun SO much better.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

2 Attacks + 1 for Power Fist and Pistol... you're doing better than your basic terminator :p

Nope :P Pistols don't give Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, or Lightning claws a second attack any more.

EDIT: Ignore me. I somehow hadn't spotted the second page where this had been covered >.>

[Katie Drake]

But I sometimes wind up regretting that when they need the Fist and it isn't there.

Exactly why I have one in most squads. I'd rather have the thing and not need it than need it and not have it. :)

[Ivarr]

I think that the biggest reason to have PW/PF in each tac squad is simply to keep the 4 round stalemate between to equivalent squads of marines. I hate that. I really hate spening the points too, but having a whole squad of marines tied up forever by a Dreadnaught stinks too.

[eagleboy7259]

Nope :P Pistols don't give Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, or Lightning claws a second attack any more.

EDIT: Ignore me. I somehow hadn't spotted the second page where this had been covered >.>

Yep Second to last paragraph, second column, page 42. So 3 power weapon attacks vs. 2 power fist attacks at ten more points. Idk... after having missed out on that rule for so long I'm almost leaning towards the sword again now...