Monsterous Creatures and Area Terrain Cover Saves

[Maelstorm]

As the title suggests I have a question about Monsterous Creatures and Area Terrain.

Question:
How much of the base of a Monsterous Creature must be within the area terrain to claim the 5+ Cover save from shooting?

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Cover saves vs. shooting, reading from the good book, pages 18, 26, 102 as identified under "Cover" in the index.

Page 18:
"If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on Page 8) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save."

Page 8: (Target Models Body)
"Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, and antennae even though they are technically part of a models body."

Page 26: (Cover saves in Close combat)
does not apply to the current topic

Page 102:
"Models within a forests boundary benefit from a 5+ cover save."

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Does a Monsterous creature need 25% of it's base within the terrain or can 99.9% of the creature be exposed in front of the terrain and just a tiny sliver of the back of the base be in the terrain and count as cover??

The question came up in a recent game with the Monsterous creature player/owner claiming cover saves on his giant bases by just having a sliver of the back of the bases in the cover and 99.9% of the model outside and in front of the area terrain...

How do you play it on your table??

[Warpspider89]

As the title suggests I have a question about Monsterous Creatures and Area Terrain.

How much of the base of a Monsterous Creature must be within the area terrain to claim the 5+ Cover save from shooting?

=============================

Cover saves vs. shooting, reading from the good book, pages 18, 26, 102 as identified under "Cover" in the index.

Page 18:
"If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on Page 8) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save."

Page 8: (Target Models Body)
"Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, and antennae even though they are technically part of a models body."

Page 26: (Cover saves in Close combat)
does not apply to the current topic

Page 102:
"Models within a forests boundary benefit from a 5+ cover save."

==============================

Does a Monsterous creature need 25% of it's base within the terrain or can 99.9% of the creature be exposed in front of the terrain and just a tiny sliver of the back of the base be in the terrain and count as cover??

The question came up in a recent game with the Monsterous creature player/owner claiming cover saves on his giant bases by just having a sliver of the back of the bases in the cover and 99.9% of the model outside and in front of the area terrain...

How do you play it on your table??

The rules for models inside of area terrain are that:

Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

Any model that has crossed the boundary of the area of terrain, even partially, would not be IN the area terrain and, as such, would not receive cover. The 25% aspect does not apply for area terrain.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, believe it or not your opponent had the rules correct.

[Maelstorm]

Absolutely no part of the model was in the terrain, just a sliver of the back of the base.

I claim Shenanigans!

This gives a Monsterous creature cover save while 99.9% of its 90mmx120mm base is completely outside of the terrain and completely exposed - between my weapon and the area terrain hidden completely behind its bulk!!

[Nabterayl]

From a rules perspective that's only shenanigans if the same would not be true for any sized base. The rulebook no longer specifies how much of a base has to be in area terrain to count as being "in," though I'm used to any sliver counting. Since monstrous creatures no longer treat area terrain at all differently than infantry, that's all you need to know - if less than 100% of a 25mm base was outside the area terrain, would you count that model as "in" the area terrain? If so, the same is true even of a monstrous creature on a large oval base.

On the other hand, since the BRB doesn't specify, you could agree that x% of even a 25mm base has to be "in" area terrain to count as "in" for any purpose (say, 50%), and in that case, you could require that x% of a larger base also be "in" without being inconsistent.

[DarkLink]

Absolutely no part of the model was in the terrain, just a sliver of the back of the base.

?

If, as you say, a sliver of its base was in terrain, then part of its base was in terrain and thus it was in terrain and not out of terrain like you also said. Which is it?

[rpricew]

Our gaming group grants cover saves to MC if any part of the base is across the boundary of area terrain. Some people think it's shenanigans, since it doesn't make sense from a logical perspective, but it's how it's ruled anyway.

[jifel]

The MC cover rules are pretty basic, as it's exactly the same as for infantry! As a Tyranid player, this is the rule I'm asked to prove the most in tournaments...

Cover save rules: If a model is 25% obscured by intervening terrain = 5+ (unless ruins, 4+)
If a model is in area terrain, even a sliver of it's base, 5+ cover.
If a model is partially obscured by a third-unit model (not shooter or target) it recieves a 5+ cover save.

The ONLY questionable part of the above rule is what constitues a model being "partially" blocked by another model. Some say it's 25%, others say if a sargeants pointing finger is blocked it's enough.

To the OP question, if his model is touching area terrain, he gets cover.

[Anakzar]

The way I see it is if you have to make a call of % in or out then it will become a problem...

So the easy way out is to just say even a tiny bit in is in. Otherwise we would see people arguing about %points... "its 25% in" "No! from my angle its only 24% in!" ect ect. So if the rules say in is in even if its barely in then its harder to argue.

Of Corse some folks will tell you the sky is red when its clearly green... or is it purple with pink poka-dots?

[Sly]

The MC cover rules are pretty basic, as it's exactly the same as for infantry! As a Tyranid player, this is the rule I'm asked to prove the most in tournaments...

Cover save rules: If a model is 25% obscured by intervening terrain = 5+ (unless ruins, 4+)
If a model is in area terrain, even a sliver of it's base, 5+ cover.
If a model is partially obscured by a third-unit model (not shooter or target) it recieves a 5+ cover save.

The ONLY questionable part of the above rule is what constitues a model being "partially" blocked by another model. Some say it's 25%, others say if a sargeants pointing finger is blocked it's enough.

To the OP question, if his model is touching area terrain, he gets cover.

Echo that, plus an additional caveat:
If the firing unit is firing THROUGH another unit, even if the shots are clearly going between models and there is absolutely no direct interference, the target is in 5+ cover.

[Maelstorm]

A HUGE Tervigon is 99.9% outside of the area cover and has just the tip of its base in, the weapon shooting it in the nose is 1" away from the nose and the terrain is on the complete other side of ther Tervigon... since it's back toe is in cover the lunch-box sized model gets a 5+ cover save. And this makes sense where?

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/Tervigon_zpsa2324218.png

[Nabterayl]

... in what sense? Are you asking what the rules are for monstrous creatures receiving cover saves from area terrain? Or are you asking why those rules aren't different from infantry receiving cover saves from area terrain?

As to the former, any non-vehicle model that is "in" area terrain receives a 5+ cover save. "In" is never defined, but there are no special rules for monstrous creatures. Most people define "in" as "any portion of the model's base is within the boundary of" in my experience; I expect that's how you define it as well. As to the latter, I'm sure I couldn't say.

[Chris Copeland]

Sometimes rules don't match reality... that is the nature of games. Why can pawns only attack diagonally? A real infantryman would be able to attack head on! It doesn't matter... it's just a rule... that is my two pence... Cheers! Cope

[Archon Charybdis]

It makes sense because that same model has to take a difficult terrain check and be subject to any mysterious terrain effects for having that same sliver of his base inside the area terrain.

[jifel]

I agree it's not 100% logical, but in the diagram you made, claiming a cover save is very legal.

[Maelstorm]

Alas, only in GW-land...

[Nabterayl]

You may have a memory of 5th edition, when monstrous creatures didn't benefit from area cover (similar to the way vehicles behave still). That rule was conspicuously lacking in 6th, to the delight of MCs everywhere.