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View Full Version : the C'tan, Eldar Gods, and the War(s) in Heaven



entendre_entendre
10-23-2009, 12:43 AM
alrighty... time to see if anyone else has wondered this.

the war between the c'tan and the old ones is sometimes called "the war in heaven", but this is already given to the battle from eldar mythology of a war between the eldar gods over the treatment of some of them, BUT i've also heard of the Fall being part of the war in heaven as the final act of the eldar gods (perhaps someone with a more intimate knowledge of eldar & necron fluff could assist here).

in the war between the C'tan and the old ones, the deceiver tricked some of the c'tan (eg. the nightbringer) into eating other c'tan. the deceiver's nefarious ways are very much apart of its character. it loves to playing with mortals and will often disguise itself to increase the pleasure it receives from its games. the necron codex states that the deceiver was the last C'tan to go into stasis, but fails to give a somewhat accurate date.

At the time of the Eldar's Fall, all but two eldar gods were destroyed, khaine & cegorach[sp?], the laughing god. khaine fought slaanesh and was defeated, his body broken, which lead to the forming the avatars. meanwhile, cegorach disappeared into the webway, where he went into hiding, and where he supposedly is still today, his followers being of course the harlequins. Cegorach is a trickster in true form, no one knows what he looks like, the only likely appearance could be taken from his followers. Cegorach draws his power from (i'm guessing on the gender here)his cunning, disguise, and illusion. Sound like anyone we know?

so know we get to the question. could the deceiver and Cegorach be one and the same? both share characteristics with one another, and both hope to end chaos, so it doesn't seem impossible that this could be true, despite other evidence (timeline). or could Cegorach and the deceiver be playing games with each other by dressing up as one another to determine who is the greatest trickster and mastermind in the universe, while Tzeenech sits on the sidelines eating mutated popcorn? :p

so am i mistaken or am i on to something? what are your thoughts on this possible necron/eldar conspiracy?

Inquisitor Soren
10-24-2009, 02:06 PM
I believe they have probably masqueraded as one another at one point, but they are far from one in the same. Cerogach seems to be a benevolent trickster trying to defeat the ultimate evil that the Eldar created. While the Deceiver is well known to be malicious, destructive and cunning beyond measure.

The deceiver wishes to destroy chaos in its entirety, while Cerogach seems to be more about mastering it by defeating the Chaos Gods. If you lexacanium Cerogach and the Harlequins you'll see what I mean by mastering it...

And Tzeench is only able to now the past and present, the future is hidden even to him...least the far future is. But I have another question, if time is mutable in the warp wouldn't that mean past/present/future are all one and therefore irrelevant, so shouldn't he know everything? Gah reasons to plot the down fall of GW #379...

The Eldar Gods are actually fragments of their gestalt unconsciousness, as the other gods were slain the chance of the Eldar race coming back was also obliterated I believe. With what they represented to the Eldar forever beyond their reach unless Slaanesh is slain.

Plus the Eldar Gods aren't all dead, three survive, one in the grasp of Nurgle, one shattered laying within the Craftworlds, and one hidden within the webway. Which explains why there are still new Eldar being born, if Isha was dead ya they probably wouldn't have anymore little space elves runnin' round ya know? With a dead goddess of fertility probably hard to procreate...

Lord Anubis
10-24-2009, 06:05 PM
I'm of the school that they probably are one and the same. For a couple of reasons.

One is the number of similarities. Their titles. Their descriptions. Heck, in Codex: Necrons there's a passage from the Harlquins about how the Laughing God tricked some of the C'Tan into eating each other... which is what we're told the Deciever did at least four other times in the same book. That to me is the game designers clearly trying to draw a connection.

Two, silly as it sounds, is a Golden Demon prize winner a few years back. Someone painted up a Deciever model in full Harlequin colors and mounted it on a base with a little plaque that said The Laughing God...? The GW judges saw this and thought it was prizeworthy. No, it's not hard evidence, but I can't believe someone would get an award for something that's blatantly against the fluff. Maybe someone won with Abaddon painted gold and labeled The Emperor Reborn...? and I just never saw it, but I somehow doubt that. ;)

Last is just Occam's Razor. We can believe that the game designers created two being with the same description, same methods, who are recorded as doing the exact same things... or we can believe it's one being that different cultures are remembering different ways in their ancient myths.

I think a lot of the confusion is a deliberate construction by GW. One of the "problems" with the Necrons is their history is so unbelievably ancient it's hard to explain why any of it would be known in the "today" of Warhammer 40,000. Mankind was just furry hominids in trees when the War in Heaven ended. Think how much confusion there is today, deciphering the origins of 4000 year old myths here on one planet. Now consider that with the Necrons and the C'Tan, we're talking about a time period almost a hundred times greater with most of the myths coming from a culture that almost completely imploded a few dozen centuries earlier. Everything from that time period is hazy and up for debate, and I think GW likes it that way.

The other big objection I see to this line of thinking (that they're one and the same) is the whole warp issue. People seem to be under the impression that the Warp is C'Tan/ Necron kryptonite, but it never says that anywhere. It just says they can't use it themselves and don't like it.

Plus, well... these are beyond-ancient myths, as I mentioned above. They say the Laughing God got his powers from the warp and vanished into the webway, but that's just the myth. It's also not hard to believe it was the Deciever doing tricks all the proto-Harlequins assumed was "warp-magic," and when he went into hibernation, well... where are they going to assume he went?

As a little side note, it's interesting to note in "The Beginning of Time" from Codex: Necrons that the Old Ones seem more interested in making all the new races psychic so they won't be dependant on technology, not because psychic powers are the C'Tan's achilles heel.

Starting to ramble. Sorry. :)

eagleboy7259
10-24-2009, 10:57 PM
This same thread surfaced on the other forum I use a while back...

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=220045&highlight=deciever

Thought I'd post it up for you to read, but the conclusion we reached was that they were two different entities. A few of the best agruments:

"we know that Cegorach interacted with other Eldar deities (Old Ones) for many thousands of years while the C'Tan were sleeping."


"at the birth of Slaanesh, She-Who-Thirsts attempted to annihilate all the Old Ones by consuming them. Do you really think that Slaanesh would have made the mistake of thinking an C'Tan was an Old One? Even further, it is noted that Cegorach will, on occasion, attempt to rescue the soul of a dead Solitaire from the grips of Slaanesh, and I can't imagine how a being that has no ability to interact with the Warp would have any chance of retrieving a soul that, by all rights, belonds to a Warp God."

"the Deceiver went to sleep, for millions of years. The Eldar wouldn't find it odd at all that one of their Gods suddenly disappeared for millions of years?"

"Remember, Eldar are highly psychic and will detect things on the warp level. No Necron or C'Tan has ever been able to do this, or even create technology that utilises the Warp. Ever. For all their technology, this was something the Necrontyr and C'Tan never manged."

Idk theres a bunch of other stuff in there going for and against it. I felt like the stuff for it was mostly wishful thinking, which required some kinda leap. Felt ridiculous, like I might as well suggest that Tzeentch is the Deceiver AND the Laughing God because he tricks the other chaos gods into infighting or co-operation, can influence other races into doing what he wants... I am in no way suggesting that, but if you stare at fluff long enough you can find parallelisms.

Nabterayl
10-25-2009, 12:26 AM
In furtherance of eagleboy's argument, aren't the eldar basically biological weapons created by the Old Ones to combat the C'tan and the necrons?

Lord Anubis
10-25-2009, 01:08 AM
Not to sound harsh but... these were the best arguments?


"we know that Cegorach interacted with other Eldar deities (Old Ones) for many thousands of years while the C'Tan were sleeping."

We also know the Deciever went to sleep long after the other C'Tan, and woke up millennia before them, too. Don't forget, there's fluff evidence that the Deciever was already awake at the time of the Horus Heresy.


"at the birth of Slaanesh, She-Who-Thirsts attempted to annihilate all the Old Ones by consuming them. Do you really think that Slaanesh would have made the mistake of thinking an C'Tan was an Old One? Even further, it is noted that Cegorach will, on occasion, attempt to rescue the soul of a dead Solitaire from the grips of Slaanesh, and I can't imagine how a being that has no ability to interact with the Warp would have any chance of retrieving a soul that, by all rights, belonds to a Warp God."

Two points, addressed seperately. First, if I say I'm going to kill everything in group A, what does it matter what the things in group A are? Eldar Gods, Old Ones, C'Tan, mole people... I just said I'm going to kill them all. That's it.

Second, yes, there are stories that the Laughing God will save the souls of dead Solitaires. There are also stories that the Emperor still walks among men and that machines won't turn on if you don't dance around them and sprinkle them with sacred oil while chanting. This goes under the mythology point I brought up in my earlier post.


"the Deceiver went to sleep, for millions of years. The Eldar wouldn't find it odd at all that one of their Gods suddenly disappeared for millions of years?"

Except that the Eldar myths also say the Laughing God vanished for millions of years,as brought up in the original post. Funny that. Moving on. ;)


"Remember, Eldar are highly psychic and will detect things on the warp level. No Necron or C'Tan has ever been able to do this, or even create technology that utilises the Warp. Ever. For all their technology, this was something the Necrontyr and C'Tan never manged."

Hmmmm... so in order to convince them you had warp powers, you'd have to... decieve them somehow. Who would be good at that? Y'know, the whole creating illusions and messing with minds thing. There must be a character in the 40K universe like that...

Hmmmm... :)

Again, I won't disagree it's a gray area. A huge gray area. However, I've always found that most arguments against it tend to fall into the "because they AREN'T" category, and, as I mentioned originally, try to use the Warp as the deciding factor. It just seems baffling to me that GW would go through all this effort to draw so many parallels between the two. In Codex: Necrons, no less. It's kind of like when Lois Lane points out how funny it is that we never see Clark Kent and Superman at the same time. Do they write that into the comics to remind us they're two separate people...?


aren't the eldar basically biological weapons created by the Old Ones to combat the C'tan and the necrons?

A very good point. Which is why any intelligent opponent would try to deflect that weapon, or possibly turn it back on the creators. Wouldn't they? ;)

Dan-e
10-25-2009, 04:49 AM
I personally prefer to think of them as two different "gods" that have a kind of rivalry between them. Often posing as each other when it fits their need and works well since they do have common foes in the Warp. Cegorach could trick a Necron lord into attacking Minions of Slaanesh or The Deceiver could use the Harlquins and their connections for what ever means he may want... still don't think the Harlquins helped create the Tau for their own purpose... i mean a whole race with out warp presences? seems like something the Deceiver would have them do for him.


And to clear a point someone made earlier; its the Deceiver who tricked the Nightbringer and Cegorach who tricked the Outsider... and for people who don't know the Outsider is by no means the Nightbringer.

... both story should be noted are in Codex : Necron (page 25 for the Outsider & 28 for the Nightbringer)

So i guess i have to ask if you think that the Deceiver & Cegorach are the same "Thing" then why would the stories list them like this? seems like if they wanted they could have just said that Cegorach tricked both or that the Deceiver did? why would he hide from the Outsider and not the Nightbringer?

eagleboy7259
10-25-2009, 10:33 AM
Not to sound harsh but... these were the best arguments?

I meant to put more but that dang thing went on for 40 pages... what can I say? I got lazy and bored and just put the thread up there. Best Arguments really = the things eagleboy could find while looking at the page for 5 minutes


To add my thought to it though... doesn't the Laughing God hide out in the webway, which to my understanding is a section of the warp that the eldar tamed and use for themselves. And in my little understanding of the fluff, the Old Ones created the Warp to hide away from the C'tan because the C'tan can't follow them in there. Wouldn't the Harlequins notice if their God just wasn't there... ever?


Two points, addressed seperately. First, if I say I'm going to kill everything in group A, what does it matter what the things in group A are? Eldar Gods, Old Ones, C'Tan, mole people... I just said I'm going to kill them all. That's it.

I don't think its that simple, again to my (mis)understanding, the Eldar Gods were Warp Gods, the gestalt presence of the Eldar consciousness, and it is because they existed in the Warp that Slaanesh could do battle with them and destroy them. The Deciever was a God in the material universe, how could Slaanesh get to him? And I also thought that the C'tan were much more powerful originally then the Chaos Gods, how could Slaanesh almost destroy the Deciever and force him to flee into the webway?

Don't kill me, I swear I'm only trying to help. It's just my understanding, and I bet someone is just dying to prove me wrong.

Faultie
10-25-2009, 11:20 AM
It seems a lot of the arguments for them being the same are framed such that "the Laughing God is the Deceiver", i.e. he's not really a god but a Ctan. However, that's goes well past the "are they the same" into "what are they."

Why could the Deceiver not actually be the Laughing God, who is actually an Eldar god that masqueraded as a Ctan?

They would both be the same thing, supported by the evidence. I'm not sure-fire that they're the same, but to say "they are the same, and thus Ctan" is different than simply "they are the same." What evidence do we have that rules out that the Eldar Laughing God isn't an incredible trickster, fooling the Ctan into believing he's one of them at times?

Just_Me
10-25-2009, 11:38 AM
First, my interpretation has always been that the elder gods and the Old Ones are different entities. They bare many similarities because the Eldar gods are created from the gestalt unconscious of the elder (sort of Jungian archetypes given form), and they were probably shaped by the race memory the Eldar had for their creators the Old Ones.

Second, the idea of similar but different trickster deities is hardly revolutionary, tricksters exist in nearly every pantheon, from Loki in Norse mythology, to Anasi in West African tradition, to Rabbit in eastern Native American folklore. All of these tricksters come from very different traditions but are extremely similar (cunning, shape-shifting abilities/masters of disguise, etc.).

Cegorach is a benevolent deity who used his talents to protect as many of the Eldar as he could during the fall (the Deceiver would certainly not have done this) and continues to interact with the Harlequins to this day from his/her hiding place in the Webway (which is implied to be the Black Library). Specifically Cegorach actually confronted Slaanesh, something which would be impossible for a being with no warp presence like the C’tan.

While it is true that both Cegorach and the Deceiver convinced their fellow C’tan to feed on each other there are some crucial differences in the results depending on who did the convincing; the Nightbringer and Void Dragon (convinced by the Deceiver) became exponentially more powerful, while the Outsider (convinced by Cegorach) became very, very insane, to the point that even his fellow C’tan locked him away in a cosmic white padded room.

Finally, if anyone has had the opportunity to read the obscure background book Xenology, on a close reading it makes some clear distinctions between the two entities.

Nabterayl
10-25-2009, 11:46 AM
A very good point. Which is why any intelligent opponent would try to deflect that weapon, or possibly turn it back on the creators. Wouldn't they? ;)
I suppose ... but when exactly did the Deceiver deceive the eldar into turning on the Old Ones?

Lord Anubis
10-25-2009, 02:45 PM
And to clear a point someone made earlier; its the Deceiver who tricked the Nightbringer and Cegorach who tricked the Outsider... and for people who don't know the Outsider is by no means the Nightbringer.

... both story should be noted are in Codex : Necron (page 25 for the Outsider & 28 for the Nightbringer)

Page 31, where it points out the Deciever tricked several C'Tan into turning on their own kind. Same page it also mentions that the Jackal God would switch sides randomly to help whoever it thought would best serve its/ his interests. ;)

I'd also point out that the story on page 25 is a millennia-old story that's been told, retold, reinterpreted, and become a legend--just as it says on the page. I refer to my Lois Lane analogy above. :)


...I also thought that the C'tan were much more powerful originally then the Chaos Gods, how could Slaanesh almost destroy the Deciever and force him to flee into the webway?

My answer to this, as above... this is the myth of the Eldar from a million years back or so. This is not a recorded, established bit of GW history, it's an established fairy tale in the fluff. As mentioned above, the whole "Cegorach fled to the webway" bit could very easily just be the poetic explanation of "he vanished somewhere and no one saw him again for a long, long time."

Again, there is established fluff that the Deciever was there during the War in Heaven, switching sides, screwing with his own kind, and so on. There are myths from that time of an Eldar God, who matches the Deciever's description, doing the exact same things we know the Deciever did.

Occam's razor. Are the myths referring to the being we know was there, or to an entirely separate being who just happens to match all the same points and has no confirmed existence past the myths?


I suppose ... but when exactly did the Deceiver deceive the eldar into turning on the Old Ones?

He hasn't. Did not mean to imply that there was some such tale floating around. Sorry. I was just referring to basic strategy. If someone's got a weapon made specifically to kill me, I want that gun targeting anything at all except me.

There are tales where the Deciever has helped Chaos and has ruled planets in the name of the Imperium. It's looking at the big plan. People are applying X vs Y arguments to a being that, by all available stories, is working with three or four different alphabets.

(that analogy sounded much cooler in my head)

So the real question would be-- Is there a potential tactical advantage to the Deciever convincing the Eldar it is one of their gods? I think most people would say yes. Why would he do it? Assuming he did it deliberately-- and this isn't just a peversion of stories where the myth is almost the opposite of the truth--

I don't know. Why the heck did he give Abaddon the dread sword Unpronounceable? He's the Deciever. He's from the Moon. He's beyond everything. :)

eagleboy7259
10-25-2009, 06:24 PM
I'm just going to say that creatures like Tzeentch, the Laughing God, and the Deceiver are far beyond the understanding of man and there will never be a definitive answer due to the nature of these beings. With them you can always say one thing and then go on the assumption that "oh no it didn't happen because he could have just been tricking them".

Lord Anubis
10-25-2009, 07:24 PM
I'm just going to say that creatures like Tzeentch, the Laughing God, and the Deceiver are far beyond the understanding of man and there will never be a definitive answer due to the nature of these beings.

I'd completely agree with that. Probably the most solid thing people can say on either side.

At least, until the Black Library puts out their War in Heaven series of books and we find out the Deciever had a twin brother... :D

matty
10-27-2009, 07:50 PM
so know we get to the question. could the deceiver and Cegorach be one and the same? both share characteristics with one another, and both hope to end chaos, so it doesn't seem impossible that this could be true, despite other evidence (timeline). or could Cegorach and the deceiver be playing games with each other by dressing up as one another to determine who is the greatest trickster and mastermind in the universe, while Tzeenech sits on the sidelines eating mutated popcorn? :p



aight, first real post here but its coming from the soul.

they are in no way shape and form the same god, despite their characteristics.

look at it like this, the Primarchs in a way were all just divisions of the emperors personality, but they shared all his key beliefs ect. i propose that both the eldar and the necron gods came from one race of god and share a twin god (same traits personality) as a god from the other faction, so i'm thinking 2 more eldar gods come back when the jackal god and Void Dragon (in caps cuz its so badass) awaken because of that

finally i think it's just going to end up being the eldar species dying out and the necrons defeated by their own gods