A Letter from woman gamers to the industry.

[gwensdad]

Posting a link to this as a bit of a favor.

http://letterstogaming.wordpress.com/

Here's an excerpt


We are the women who play, write, design, create art for, and love your games. We play video games from first person shooters online to Wii Fit. We have top of the line gaming machines and old play stations we keep running with gum and shoe polish. We know every game coming out next month and we have been playing the same copy of Doctor Mario since we bought it years ago, used. We are also table top players and LARPers. We have invested thousands of dollars in collectible card games and miniatures for war simulation games. In some cases we are 40% of the market, and we are 50% of the population.

Despite all that, there are times when many of us feel neglected or forgotten.


Read, comment, share and enjoy.

[BuFFo]

So the six 'woman' gamers worldwide made a letter. Big whoop.

I like the skewed 'percentage' in that letter about 'in some cases even 40% of the market and 50% of the population'

1) 40% of what market? Such a blanket statement like that serves no purpose but to mislead. I guess the author must mean 40% of the Pokemon and Sims market?

2) 50% population? lol. Women out populate men 100% of the time on the planet. I guess by the author's view, a billion women must be dying and being born every day for such a fluctuating number to exist.

The point of this thread has 'what' to do with 40k?

[gwensdad]

It's gaming and we have some vocal female gamers.

[BuFFo]

I agree, but this has nothing to do with 40k specifically.

This should go here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/forumdisplay.php?f=34), where all non GW related topics should go.

[Sangre]

What's the problem exactly?

[Lord Azaghul]

What's the problem exactly?

I kind of agree here. Didn''t really see much in that.

Fact remains that the majority of gamer markets are male.

I say ask for better quality material, but don't try to politcize and feminize the gaming industry just to politcize and feminize it.

If you have a problem with a company, don't buy there products.

[MajorSoB]

It is a good letter and a good topic.

To explain what it has to do with gaming and 40K is simple. I could best describe it as Soccer Mom syndrome. I have worked at gaming stores and spend countless hours in them. Most young adolescents come in with their mother and its a woman who decides what they will spend their allowance on. Moms hand out the money for Magic cards, D&D books, 40K as well as video and computer games. In many marriages too women help regulate the discretionary spending on hobby related purchases. I know this is a hard concept for many here but someday you may actually have a woman in your life who doesnt require inflation and I can guarantee she will have some impact on your spending in relation to your hobbies. So what does this letter have to do with 40K, quite simply it has everything to do with it. Its a known fact in the industry that Chaos and Deamons were a poor selling army in the Southern US states? Why is that, because many women there as well as in other areas of the world were put off by the sexuality and nudity. Have you ever wondered why the new deamonettes are no longer naked? GW reviewed this army and GW didnt want to alienate over 50% of the worlds population. Women have a huge influence on what products are purchased, believe it!

[Lord Azaghul]

It is a good letter and a good topic.

. Its a known fact in the industry that Chaos and Deamons were a poor selling army in the Southern US states? Why is that, because many women there as well as in other areas of the world were put off by the sexuality and nudity. Have you ever wondered why the new deamonettes are no longer naked? GW reviewed this army and GW didnt want to alienate over 50% of the worlds population. Women have a huge influence on what products are purchased, believe it!

I'm a married man, but my reason for having 0 interest in Chaos and Daemons are far more of a religious root then a gender equality issue. Where or not the daemons are clothed has nothing to do with my decision not to purchase them.

I don't doubt a mothers influnce on what ever son (since its most likely a son playing the game and not a daughter) will be purchasing, but I also see mothers who care very little about that activities their children participate in - I think the daemonettes were clothed because of westerners preoccupation with nudity.

[MajorSoB]

I'm a married man, but my reason for having 0 interest in Chaos and Daemons are far more of a religious root then a gender equality issue. Where or not the daemons are clothed has nothing to do with my decision not to purchase them.

I don't doubt a mothers influnce on what ever son (since its most likely a son playing the game and not a daughter) will be purchasing, but I also see mothers who care very little about that activities their children participate in - I think the daemonettes were clothed because of westerners preoccupation with nudity.

Think what you like about the deamonettes but this is the information that came directly from a GW rep.

Many more women than you would like to acknowledge have direct influences on purchases made in the gaming industry. While 40K does not have many female gamers there are some ( we have several in our area) and many more who control their child's and husband's purchases. Fantasy has a higher female population, while games like Magic, Pokemon, YuGiOh and D20 style games share even more of a female audience. WoW has a huge female online presence, and currently there are games that cater exclusively to little girls like Bella Sara. Many miniature painters are women. Many women also play video games as well. To ignore the concerns of the female portion of the gaming community is anything but a sound business decision. All I see in this letter is a few concerned women asking to consider their views when decisions are made. It is not an unreasonable request.

[Lerra]

As a female I do get a very strong sense of "You don't belong here" from GW. The game is very clearly targeted toward men - and that's okay - but it doesn't need to be at the exclusion of females either. All GW has to do is throw us a bone every now and then to show that they want our business (and that we're not unwanted members of a boy's club). I'm fine with the half naked daemon models or the big chested women dripping with sexuality, as long as their are a few non-sexual models to balance things out. Give female gamers the choice of having a mixed-gender force without running Slaanesh (which isn't really female anyway ;))

It's the little things that GW could change to attract more female gamers. I felt kind of silly showing up for 'ard Boyz and declaring that I wanted to be the top "Boy". Have FW add a female Guardsman model or two. Make plastic Sisters. Drop the references to sportsmanship and "acting like a man". Maybe add one token female into the 6th ed rulebook photos.

What percentage of female gamers play either Sisters or Eldar? Over 75% from personal experience. That's because those are two of the only armies with options for female models.

Female gamers are a small market, but so are Dark Eldar players or Alpha Legion players, etc. How many guys would want to teach their girlfriends/wives/daughters how to play 40k? Why wouldn't GW try to expand their business as much as possible? It does seem like they are ignoring a segment of the population that they could be selling their products to.


So the six 'woman' gamers worldwide made a letter. Big whoop.

For what it's worth, my FLGS is about 30% female, more on D&D/RP days. Of the 40k players, only about 15% are female, but you can hardly say that we don't exist :P

[Old_Paladin]

I always liked the comment, "these industries (aimed at males) depict women in a streotyped way." Yeah, because all my friends and I personal look like a Space Marines and Commissar Gaunt; we're all seven feet tall, with washboard abs, chisilled jaw-lines and dark hair; plus we're all utterly brave, charismatic and commanding figures. That's I standard I'll be able to live up too!

The truth is nearly EVERY industry gives an artifical image of what people should be. The cosmetics industry (aimed at a womens market), shows the same images as Maxim. At the same time, the media is telling me that I should either be a doctor or Brad Pitt. The truth is that big business is greedy, greedy, greedy; if the act like they don't like you, then it's because they've crunched the numbers are they make almost no money from you.

I wonder how many people say, that Warhhammer/D&D/video games are sexist, but then go out and buy Cosmo or eyeliner or that new bra that lifts and seperates. Now, I'm not saying that these claims are unfounded; the world is a sexist place, ideals are almost impossible to achive, and sex sells. But lets not have a double-standard. If blueskinned female daemons in corsets demeans women; then by a similar token you don't get to dye your hair.

[Nabterayl]

You know, I'm not a woman, but my experience has been that women gamers (and women who might become gamers but feel put off by a brand) are generally sophisticated enough not to feel alienated by the mere presence of sexy female bodies in a brand. It's more complicated than that - it's a question of what the brand says about women, or the way its adherents treat women.

I don't know many women who think that being considered sexy is demeaning or off-putting. But there's a big difference between sending the message that women should aspire to be sexy and sending the message that a woman with traits X, Y, and Z is sexy.

<theory of gender depiction>
When games depict men as seven feet tall, with washboard abs, chiseled jaw-lines and dark hair, plus utterly brave, charismatic and commanding figures, there's a very old trope at work there, where a hero who is awesome in his personal characteristics also gets to have an awesome body and awesome gear. It's almost as if, aesthetically, the man is seven feet tall with washboard abs, a chiseled jaw and sexy dark hair because he is utterly brave, charismatic, and commanding.

Most men I know, if they think about that at all, don't interpret these sorts of depictions as saying, "You can only be brave, charismatic, and commanding if you look like this." If anything, they interpret it the other way around - "If you are brave, charismatic, and commanding, it is as if you looked like this."

I'm pretty sure that you could apply the same theory to women. The off-putting thing is not that a woman is depicted with a smoking body. The off-putting thing is the personal characteristics associated with the body. Is the brand saying, "If you are a weak-willed nymphomaniac with a flat personality, it is as if you looked like this?" or "You can only be sexy and desirable if you look like this?" or "If you look like this, you are a weak-willed nymphomaniac with a flat personality?" Or is the brand saying, "If you are brave, charismatic, and commanding, it is as if you looked like this?"

Sisters of battle wear corselets designed like corsets with boob armor big enough to hold a small cannon, chaplets that draw visual attention to their bikini areas, cuisses that emphasize their hips, boots with high heels, and pauldrons that exaggerate the curves of their figures. I haven't seen a single member of the Sororitas depicted without an unrealistically curvy body for a fighting woman.

Yet how many women find the Sororitas demeaning or off-putting? Not many that I've run into (and the ones that do are generally those who are familiar with the artwork only, not the background). The reason, I submit, is that the personal characteristics of the Sororitas are positive (or at least many women find them so).* An unrealistically sexy body and positive personal characteristics is not demeaning or off-putting. An unrealistically sexy body and negative** personal characteristics is.
</theory of gender depiction>

* Not wholly positive (nothing in 40K is wholly positive), but enough to be compelling.
** Or at least, negative in the mind of the beholder.

[Lerra]

The "sexist" problem of the 40k universe, imo, is that the men are the ones that impact the world, and women (for the most part) are just background players. Anyone who is cool, influential, or important is male.

There are a handful of named females, but most of those are in Ordos Hereticus (the token female army) and even they are not all that influential in the big scheme of things. Here are all of the named females that I was able to find in the rest of the world (let me know if I missed any):

All Space Marine codices = 0
Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters = 0
Tau = 1 (Commander Shadowsun)
Eldar, Chaos Space Marine, Necron = 0
Chaos Daemons = 0.5 (The Masque is a hermaphrodite, so we'll give half credit here)
Dark Eldar = ?

1.5 named females. Am I missing any?

[BuFFo]

For what it's worth, my FLGS is about 30% female, more on D&D/RP days. Of the 40k players, only about 15% are female, but you can hardly say that we don't exist :P

When I was living in NYC, the female gamers at my old major gaming store was 0%

When I loved in Kansas, same thing.

Here in Florida, both in Orlando and my local gaming shops, female gamers in 40k amount to 0%.

...

I still don't see the point of this thread with 40k at all. This 'letter' is so generic it can be applied to anything really.

What point is the OP trying to make? I don't see anything of topic here.

All this thread is going to do is allow people to speak about ANY topic concerning the human sex with a vagina in whatever form they wish. Just another 'females in the hobby' 'topic' that is so generic, 1)the hobby can be ANYTHING that it 2) it numbs the mind.

I guess this topic does serve a purpose.

+1

[Old_Paladin]

All Space Marine codices = 0
Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters = 0
Tau = 1 (Commander Shadowsun)
Eldar, Chaos Space Marine, Necron = 0
Chaos Daemons = 0.5 (The Masque is a hermaphrodite, so we'll give half credit here)
Dark Eldar = ?

1.5 named females. Am I missing any?

Space Marines isn't entirely fair; the fluff is pretty clear that women cannot be genetically butchered that way. And Necrons are robots bodies made to look like bones, so really, any of them could have been female in their past lives.

For Dark Eldar: Kruellagh and Lelith (edit: I'll also throw in No'akie from the 'Fall of Medusa V'); and don't forget Jain Zar of their Craftworld brethern.
There is also the Martyr Saint herself (not Sabbat!) Celestine.
That's 6, (not counting the Masque). You'd think the IG could have had at least one though (a tough female Catachan or Mordian, that beat the snot out of her male counterparts to get her rank).

That's just the Codexes, the Black Library stories often include strong and important women characters.

[eldargal]

All I want (and this is just my opinion) from GW would be the option to have a female leader and a few female troops in my army, where the fluff allows it. Female IG, female farseer, female archon etc. That, and plastic sisters.:) I don't want to see any changes to 40k, not even the art. What is needed is just a small acknowledgement that there are actually girls that play.

[TheBitzBarn]

Its a known fact in the industry that Chaos and Deamons were a poor selling army in the Southern US states? Why is that, because many women there as well as in other areas of the world were put off by the sexuality and nudity.

As a Southerner I can tell you One thing for Sure DAEMONS and CHAOS SELL VERY WELL. It has nothing to do with religion. TRUST me those FUNDEMENTALIST that would have an issue with the Game do not PLAY the Game. Daemons sell as well in the South as they do anywhere. You must be a Weak minded person to think soemthing liek that is fact.

As for women gamers in our circle of 40k/Fantasy Players we have one female. Se plays Sisters. I play Sisters becuase I love the fluff and Back Story. Yes the bodies are lil over the top but I can live with that and most women that I know do not mind it. If you read the fluff The Sisters are a Very Influential.

I wish they made female Guard as to mix up the army. The fluff for Cadia says all citizens train for the Army. The Dark Eldar the Wytches are almost all Female. The Writer of this letter has crazy Stats. They have female Guardians and in Fantasy they have the High Elf Queen and her Maiden Guard. Wood Elves have female torsos for the Glade Guard as due the Dark Elves. The Brets Castes are females. I like having female models as it adds flavor to the game.

I know every time a female has started playing every group I have been around supported it and enjoyed the change of pace

[eldargal]

This is one of the most sensible things I've seen on this subject.:) I get particularly annoyed with the amount of complaining that is done about exaggerated female figures in gaming advertising, as if the men are any different. The whole thing is fantasy, the boys want to be made to feel like heroes and I think we girls should try get away from feeling inadequate. Exaggerated female anatomy actually has a long historyof use to emphasise femininity, not just engender lust. In my view that is why SoB power armour is designed the way it is, to say 'these are women at arms, in accordance with Decree Passive*' rather than 'hey look at my bewbs lol'.
Ok, so I don't like the Blanche SoB codex cover art, not because the woman is curvy, but because her power armour doesn't look like power armour. I don't want to see Space Marines in skin tight latex power armour either.:rolleyes:
Space Marines are 7ft 6, according to Jes Goodwin.

*The Ecclessiarchy can not maintain any men under arms.


I always liked the comment, "these industries (aimed at males) depict women in a streotyped way." Yeah, because all my friends and I personal look like a Space Marines and Commissar Gaunt; we're all seven feet tall, with washboard abs, chisilled jaw-lines and dark hair; plus we're all utterly brave, charismatic and commanding figures. That's I standard I'll be able to live up too!

[Commissar Lewis]

Well, I was gonna type out an eloquent, lengthy response, but dammit Burn Notice is on. Main thing is I don't really think 40k is gonna truly attract a large amount of female players. I used to hope to find a chick that was into 40, but I've since realized that to be a pipe dream.

[Tweak]

I know this is kind of off point and doesn;t belong in the 40K thread, but really neither does this convosation. But Warhammer Armies opposed to 40K armies have quite a few female models and characters. In the Dark Elf book there are 2 Lord level Characters which are female opposed to the one male character, and variation of male and females in the model range. But Dark Elf wemon probably are a little rude to repesent females in the Warhammer world... maybe High Elves or Wood Elves would be a better example. :)

[MajorSoB]

1.5 named females. Am I missing any?

Dark Eldar- Kruellagh the Vile, Lelith Hesparex, ( the Dracon Model is female as well as most of the Wyches)
Adeptus Soretis- Celestine the Living Saint, (Sister Dialogous and Sister Hospitaler both retinue models, 3 different Inquisitors, in addition to the Repentia, basic Sisters and Seraphim models)
Guard- Warrior Woman Hero and Rocket Girl from Schaeffer's Last Chancers

This would add 5 more named characters to your list as well as some more examples of female based models but you are 100% correct that females are a sidenote in the 40K universe.

[slxiii]

Dark Eldar- Kruellagh the Vile, Lelith Hesparex, ( the Dracon Model is female as well as most of the Wyches)
Adeptus Soretis- Celestine the Living Saint, (Sister Dialogous and Sister Hospitaler both retinue models, 3 different Inquisitors, in addition to the Repentia, basic Sisters and Seraphim models)
Guard- Warrior Woman Hero and Rocket Girl from Schaeffer's Last Chancers

This would add 5 more named characters to your list as well as some more examples of female based models but you are 100% correct that females are a sidenote in the 40K universe.

There are quite a few women in 40k- just look at the eldar.
Also, perhaps I am missing something, but i've always thought farseers were predominately female- and they affect the fate of their entire species....
And seriously, sisters is an entire army of women. I'm pretty sure a large part of their creation was to try and get women to game more.
As far as the "women as a sidenote" consensus goes, how many here can name alexander the great as a great general? probably most... but how many could name his mother? I challenge anyone here to honestly name 5 great female warriors(without the aid of google, of course). 40k is about war, and women historically don't play a huge part in war, at least in the european influenced societies most of us live in. Reality reflects Fiction and vice versa...

[Vindur]

All Space Marine codices = 0
Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters = 0
Tau = 1 (Commander Shadowsun)
Eldar, Chaos Space Marine, Necron = 0
Chaos Daemons = 0.5 (The Masque is a hermaphrodite, so we'll give half credit here)
Dark Eldar = ?

1.5 named females. Am I missing any?

The old Eldar spirit seer from the previous dex and 2 in the dark eldar codex along with the heavily mentioned No'daki

[eldargal]

Yup, but check GWs site and find a female farseer model. There isn't one.
Sisters are all female, at least, they were when they had their own codex. Not to mention the model range is what, sixteen years old in parts and all metal.
Alexander the Greats' mothers name was Olympias.
Women warriors without google: Boudica, Joan of Arc, that Indian rebel leader (ok so I don't remember her name:rolleyes:), the Dahomey (sp) Amazons, the Scythian amazons (burials of warrior women with battle wounds suggest an element of truth to the old Greek amazon myths).
Now, I'm not asking for a lot more women in 40k or anything, but these few things would help:
Female farseer model(s), female IG models (hell even just 3-4 sculpts in metal to mix in), plastic sisters (and a new codex) and maybe even the odd female IG special character. Just a few little things to let us know GW actually acknowledges our existence. I mean it is all there in the fluff, female farseers, female IG (the Valhallan 296th were all female, merged into the 597th of Ciaphas Cain), etc. But no models, not withstanding Kruellagh (meh) and Lileth (best GW female sculpt there is).


There are quite a few women in 40k- just look at the eldar.
Also, perhaps I am missing something, but i've always thought farseers were predominately female- and they affect the fate of their entire species....
And seriously, sisters is an entire army of women. I'm pretty sure a large part of their creation was to try and get women to game more.
As far as the "women as a sidenote" consensus goes, how many here can name alexander the great as a great general? probably most... but how many could name his mother? I challenge anyone here to honestly name 5 great female warriors(without the aid of google, of course). 40k is about war, and women historically don't play a huge part in war, at least in the european influenced societies most of us live in. Reality reflects Fiction and vice versa...

[miteyheroes]

As far as the "women as a sidenote" consensus goes, how many here can name alexander the great as a great general? probably most... but how many could name his mother? I challenge anyone here to honestly name 5 great female warriors(without the aid of google, of course). 40k is about war, and women historically don't play a huge part in war, at least in the european influenced societies most of us live in. Reality reflects Fiction and vice versa...

Boudica led the Celtic revolt against the Romans.
Aethelflaed, Alfred the Great's daughter, became the ruler of Mercia and led the re-conquest & defence of Mercia against the Vikings. One of the real great warrior women, but sadly not often talked about.
Cleopatra was a key player in the Roman Civil War after Julius Caesar's death.
Joan of Arc drove the English out of Orleans and was crucial in turning French fortunes in the 100 years war.
The Begum Sombre of Sardhana is another personal favourite of mine. A young Indian girl, who shacked up with a mad Swiss man-who-would-be-king mercenary. After his death she took over his army, carved out a kingdom, was a major threat to the East India Company and got heavily into Catholicism. She led her troops into battle on horseback, wearing a turban and armour.

Then there's Zenobia of Syria, Tamar of Georgia, several Sikh Ranis plus loads of Far Eastern ones. And that's ignoring more modern fighting women, of which there are obviously many, and ignoring mythological fighters (Hua Mulan, anyone?)

Anyway. GW should totally bring out more female models. Female guardsmen obviously aren't covered enough, although people shouldn't forget the two Last Chancers (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1150013#) or the old Necromunda Clan Escher. Of course, they are rather impractically dressed... It'd also be nice to see more non-Banshee Eldar gals.
I doubt we'll ever see plastic Sisters. Plastic sprues are a huge investment, and Sisters have always been quite niche.

[Sangre]

Maybe tomorrow I'll write an open letter to the dressmaking industry, demanding that they change their overall style to be more accommodating to the 50% of the population who are ultimately excluded from buying their products.

[eldargal]

Nothing stopping you buying and wearing a dress if thats how you roll. Post pics.


Maybe tomorrow I'll write an open letter to the dressmaking industry, demanding that they change their overall style to be more accommodating to the 50% of the population who are ultimately excluded from buying their products.

[miteyheroes]

Nothing stopping you buying and wearing a dress if thats how you roll. Post pics.

Indeed. We shouldn't forget that dresses (in the form of long tunics) and skirts (kilts) have been popular and pre-dominant items of male attire for most of recorded history. Ask any Graeco-Roman and they'll tell you it's only barbarians who wear trousers...

[Cryl]

Indeed. We shouldn't forget that dresses (in the form of long tunics) and skirts (kilts) have been popular and pre-dominant items of male attire for most of recorded history. Ask any Graeco-Roman and they'll tell you it's only barbarians who wear trousers...

wasn't it the Romans who "invented" tights / stockings as their legions felt the cold during the conquest and occupation of Britain?

wait... what was this topic about again?

[TheBitzBarn]

. Plastic sprues are a huge investment, and Sisters have always been quite niche.


Good to see someone understand the manufacturing process I am so tired of hearing plastic is so cheap BLAH BLAH BLAH

[Denzark]

Its just occurred to me that, in the same way about topics on scale creep etc, GW uses strange exaggerated scales as miniatures are almost 'caricature-esque'.

What I'm saying is, when something is 28mm and not naked, and some of the men have long hair, the only way to tell the difference would be to ensure they have an earth-shatteringly huge pair of norks with a cleavage you could lose a baneblade cannon shell in.

Not a problem for this callsign.

[miteyheroes]

wasn't it the Romans who "invented" tights / stockings as their legions felt the cold during the conquest and occupation of Britain?

Trousers probably originated among horse-riding cultures in Asia. They spread to the natives in Northern Europe, and in turn were adopted by some Roman legionnaires to keep out the cold. But they were always looked down upon by Greeks and higher class Romans.


wait... what was this topic about again?

Games Workshop women. And, thinking about it, GW isn't really doing too badly.
Humans - there were the Escher in Necromunda, two guardswomen in the Last Chancers, the Callidus, a few Inquisitors and the Sisters & their Saint. They could probably do with more - maybe a female Guard character, or Forgeworld making female guardswomen pieces. That'd be cool. Remember that resin is easy to make moulds for, there's none of the expensive overheads of plastic. Forgeworld could even make updated Sisters relatively easily?
Eldar - there are female Guardian torsoes, Howling Banshees, Jain Zar, female DE torsoes, Wyches, Kruellagh, Lilith and a Dracon. Could do with a few more, especially Farseers or Warlocks, but all in all they're doing well.
Tau - Commander Shadowsun. Many of the other models *could* be female, but they're a bit hard to tell.
Orks - Asexual, although fairly decidedly masculine in flavour. Female orc cheerleaders were made for Bloodbowl. It really wasn't a good idea.
Necrons - Utterly asexual. Well, except these ones: http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/Wolfleader6/necrons.jpg
Tyranids - A race ruled by Norn Queens and Dominatrixes (Dominatrices?) But they don't really do gender or reproduction in the same way as us. Still, doing it as well as they could.
Chaos - Well, there's Slaanesh. Who's at least half way to being female. Other than that, not so much.

[Sangre]

Nothing stopping you buying and wearing a dress if thats how you roll. Post pics.

Yeah, and there's nothing actually stopping you, or indeed, any woman going out and buying 40k if that's how you roll. That's rather my point.

[eldargal]

You appear not to have paid attention. No one is disputing that we can't buy and play 40k, we are just saying a bit more of a nod from GW would be nice, in the form of a few more female models to match the fluff. Your point is quite invalid.


Yeah, and there's nothing actually stopping you, or indeed, any woman going out and buying 40k if that's how you roll. That's rather my point.

[Aeirling of Steirm Canoir]

You appear not to have paid attention. No one is disputing that we can't buy and play 40k, we are just saying a bit more of a nod from GW would be nice, in the form of a few more female models to match the fluff. Your point is quite invalid.

i agree with you. Some more female models would be nice, and at least the sisters codex needs to be updated If not the models range (Plastic sisters would be nice). I've been waiting for GW to produce a female farseer since i started 40k *Sigh*. Still, there's always fantasy and LOTR models for conversions.

Thats one thing i have noticed. Warhammer fantasy has loads of female models. (Female glade guard, female Dark elf warriors and wyches, female high elves, female spell casters, etc) Yet warhammer 40k is lacking. I feel this is an issue that needs fixing.

[Sangre]

My point is not invalid. 40k needs to change its model range to accommodate women just as much as dressmakers need to change their styling to accommodate men.

Although I will agree tracking down the parts to convert Colonel Selar Barion for my IXth Astraean is proving to be quite an embuggerance. If only there was something like a female Mordian torso I'd snap it up like a shot. The rest should be easy from there.

[Aldramelech]

My opinions on this subject are a matter of record on this site. I want to see more female gamers and I want female miniatures, However, The letter posted on this thread will not achieve any of those things because it is a politically correct, feminist rant. There are many ways to change attitudes and behavior, whining is not one of them.

[Aeirling of Steirm Canoir]

My point is not invalid. 40k needs to change its model range to accommodate women just as much as dressmakers need to change their styling to accommodate men.

Although I will agree tracking down the parts to convert Colonel Selar Barion for my IXth Astraean is proving to be quite an embuggerance. If only there was something like a female Mordian torso I'd snap it up like a shot. The rest should be easy from there.

I'm not asking that GW change it's entire range. I'm just saying they should add some more female models, both to show their appreciation for female gamers and also to add some new converting and modeling options. I'm not saying 40k should "Change it's entire range" simply add a few female models here and there.

So yes, your argument is invalid. And Your argument about men and dresses is more disturbing than accurate.

[Nabterayl]

Let's all bear in mind that the women posting in this thread already play. Nobody's saying, "Well, I would play, if only GW weren't such sexist *******s!" All anybody has said so far is that they'd like to see the women who already exist in the 40K fluff better represented in the miniature range.

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, I would like to see some more female models; my Guard army is a total sausage fest except for Corporal Vasquez, my Catachan grenade launcher chick. Killed a demon prince once, she did.

But I'd like variety in terms of models as my regiment's planet is sort of like Cadia in that both men and women enlist and fight equally.

Honestly, I'm thinking of just buyin' up some Fantasy models for some convertin'. Also I need Fantasy Ogres to make some Ogryns, but I'm offroading from my point here.

[Duke]

All I can say is something that has appeared in another thread...

"In the Grim darkness of the far future there are only males."


Duke

[Faolain]

Don't forget on the Eldar side that there are female Shining Spear models as well. I have two of them.

I also have a female High Elf sorceress that I plan on eventually converting into a Farseer.

[Grimwar]

Ok I read this with my eye's bleeding towards the end.

If this person thinks she represents all of "her kind" as "she puts it" then all women gamers are doomed. It's like having jerry springer during his showtime days represent all men. I am honestly insulted for the female gamers.

One example:
"I know its hard to represent women in stories" .

Really it's hard not to giggle when I read that. The writer is blamed for being flawed in a way thats not the writers fault. That's more bias feminism then latent sexism being represented.

She should have just said it bluntly.
Like: "Stop putting us in bikini armor in your illustrations."

People with her point of view only broaden the gender gap in a male dominated game. Touching on the sensitive "segrigational spots" that litter the entire field. The way to get to a point is not avoiding them entirely. But pointing them out like a logical teacher would. Not acting like she's a victim of the 'tyranny'.

I hate sugar coating what people say with nice acting. It blows you off balance and then you put 2 and 2 together to find what they actually said is not befitting how they put it.

I guess I'm just ranting at this point. My point is that she should not "reresent all women gamers" if she is going to butt-kiss and be unequal in her wording. I would put my sister up to rewording it for her, but she would be very 'equal' if you know what I mean. Coming from a family full of females, I say what I say without fear of retaliation.

~GW

[Sangre]

Yeah, I would like to see some more female models; my Guard army is a total sausage fest except for Corporal Vasquez, my Catachan grenade launcher chick. Killed a demon prince once, she did.

I swear to god everyone I know who has that model calls her Vasquez. Why is that?!

[Commissar Lewis]

Dunno, named her after the chick in Aliens of the same name, whom I found to be hot. That's where I got the name Vasquez from. As for other people, could be coincidence or they may have gotten the idea from Aliens as well.

[Katie Drake]

:confused: Dude, she was so manly! Eww! :p

[Morgrim]

Sounds like some males would like a few female models for convertion purposes too, so the issue is hardly a 'political whining of a female minority' and more a 'GW is missing out on a business opportunity'.

Personally, I might be female but I work and study in an industry with a strong male bias, yet also a very neutral attitude to gender. (Almost a 'if you get this far you are worthy, regardless of sex' situation.) I don't care about most of the issues that seem to get raised. No, I don't like over inflated breasts, but that is because I'm not a boob person, not because I am female. I don't feel discriminated against by GW with any of their product lines. And when I hear 'Ard Boyz I don't think of stereotypical gender roles, I think it amusing that for as much as GW hammers about the Imperium, their championship is named after orks.

Storm in a teacup, most of the time.
(Although can I put in a request for more sexy 'chains in flesh' models like the mandrakes and some of the wyches, both genders? kthnks :P )

[Jakain]

Speaking as a male, its sort of interesting that GW doesn't capitalize more on the very effective marketing method of 'sex sells'. There aren't enough sexy looking female models which is interesting since this is a product very much designed for the typical horny, sex-deprived wargaming nerd. However GW probably don't want to go too far in this area since they do have to rely on mom's pocketbooks to fund the next generation of GW customers. That said this is also a predominately 'white' hobby to boot and you'll find even less models representing other races; for example the only Asian Imperial Guard person I can list is 'Hero' from the Last Chancers whereas I can remember two female models in that same squad and the Catachan grenade launcher person.

As for the idea of wanting female options in rulebooks I really think thats dependent on the hobbyist. For example the IG it doesn't specifically say that they have to be men and the very nature of the 40k universe just about anything is accepted as long as its cool --- so feel free to convert your own female Commissars if thats your fancy. The most recent 40k female model I can think of would be that Tau special character who definitely had a great sculptor as its a very nice model.

However model production is pretty damn expensive; we still have ancient Catachans and the like being priced as much as brand new infantry sculpt, etc. So maybe investing in a more 'politically correct' representation is simply cost ineffective especially for a plastic set of both male and females.

[Slann]

I couldn't read the all the threads so many where becoming redundant that I just skipped to the last page , As for the letter I think it is a step in the right direction . Maybe her numbers where off ( well def. ) but who cares her point is made , GW should maybe throw more females onto there sprues , army's of the future are becoming more mixed gender as time goes on its not hard to believe women fight along side men .

Maybe by writing this letter other females will step up and write them too , this is how you get things done let GW know your out there . And know what if they don't wise up and cater more towards females than they should get together and slap them with a law suit , hell GW does it all the time .

[RogueGarou]

GW has made some female Guard models in the past. I have the Last Chancers, Tanith, Catachan, and three Rogue Trader-era female Guard models as well as a couple or three female Commissars. Apparently, they all sell fairly well on Ebay and some gaming groups have had limited run pieces made to use with the Cadian plastics to make female troopers. One of the Perry Twins even made a really nice Catachan female with a heavy bolter slung across her shoulder and standing on the skull of a Tyrannid for a Games Day Open Event a few years ago. Plenty of companies make female models which sell well. Many of them are pretty, attractive models but not really very realistic. For example, a fantasy male is wearing full plate armor while the female counterpart is wearing a thong and her hair or sword to protect her modesty. I freely and openly admit this: I enjoy the female form in all of its glory. I also admit that I like having models which are visually appealing. Sometimes that is because the armor looks cool, the shapes are visually comforting or jarring, and sometimes it is because the sculpt is just sexy. Fortunately, my wife of seven years (and friend of ten years) has similar tastes even though she is not a gamer. She wants to buy me the Forge World Keeper of Secrets because it is sexy but I don't want to spend the money at the moment.

Anyway, sometimes the models are inappropriate. I don't feel the Daemonettes were inappropriate because that is who they are. They are demons. They are sex demons like succubi. They do not have the social mores we have and they have little need for protection in the physical sense. Also,I don't think mammary glands are the eb-all end-all of existence or of what makes a woman a woman. I also don't feel they are obscene. So the Daemonette models were just fine with me. I did not have any of the Rogue Trader or 2e models because I did not find them appealing. I have the 3E and 5E plastics and the only thing I would change is the heads on the plastics; I just didn't like several of them. What I liked most about the old models was their litheness. They looked like they would move swiftly and slice you to ribbons. They seemed to fit what they were.

Back in the Rogue Trader days there was a female model in Power Armor but it looked horrible. I seem to recall that some of the marketing material did call it a Female Space Marine but that was many years ago and it could have been a typo. The Sisters then came along and I really liked them. Since they do not have the same genetic enhancements as a Marine, their Power Armor looks different. I can accept that. Dealing with the scale also means that some things might be exaggerated on the models. OK, I can accept that. I do not find anything untoward about the Sisters models except that they are all in metal. Again, they seem to fit. The armor is different than a Marines armor but the shape underneath the armor is also different.

The female Guard models are some of my favorite models because they are so uncommon. I don't think most of them are too exaggerated and for the most part they look nice. Take the Tanith female model. It is obviously a female model but there is no cleavage and the model is wearing the same uniform of the males. Being Guard, they should all be wearing flak armor but none of the Tanith appear to be wearing it. A note on the real world here about armor and the genders, body armor for women with breasts NEEDS to be different than armor for men without breasts (mammary glands or fatty tissues). This has been proven in combat by the military and in the private sector by several armor manufacturers. If the armor is not shaped differently to allow for the added tissues and to conform to those differences in shape between the two bodies, the armor will fail or will not provide adequate protection. For example, the standard issue armor of the U.S. military works well if the shape underneath it is roughly rectangular, or male shaped. If the shape beneath the armor is shaped differently, it allows gaps in cover to the sides and also can cause damage to the chest cavity when struck if the shape underneath the armor is not roughly flat. This is because the armor is supposed to deform and slow impacts. It does this partly by spreading the impact across the roughly flat surface of the body or chest. The mammary glands or other bodily protuberances of sufficient size will alter the form of the armor during deformation under impact stress. It changes the way it disperses the force and stops the impacting object. Long story short, something under the armor which changes its shape can cause a severe impact to the body under the armor. A man is shot in the chest and if he is relatively flat chested, he should survive. Same for a woman. However, if either of them has something under the armor that changes the shape enough, when they are shot in the chest, the armor bends too much and transmits the force into the body under the armor. The bullet may be stopped but the breastbone or ribs just got hit with the force of a hammer focused into a small area. Bruising of the heart or lungs can occur, broken bones, etc. So, WHEN GW makes some female Guard for us, they should be shaped slightly differently than the male models we currently have. But those differences should be over the whole body of the model.

There are lots of companies making female models out there. That fact alone is a big reason I do not like the GW-only Draconian policies of some folks. Demonblade had their version of Sisters, for example. The Libby models are generally nice models, Libby in Powered Armor comes to mind as being useful. The Libby models are also often described as more everyday woman shaped. I have been very tempted to pick up some Infinity models because their female sculpts are very visually appealing and they have a really cool female sniper; Jessi Banda anyone? I think we can give up any hope at all of Forge World EVER making female models unless the management changes. Several months ago, while a particular group was having custom sculpts done to make female Cadian-esque bits, a letter was received from Forge World which flatly stated they felt making female soldiers in a game where the female models could be killed in the game was inappropriate. Huh, there is that word again. Maybe that will change someday, maybe not.

There are people who will not purchase some models because they do not like them. One person in our gaming group with very strong religious beliefs will only pronounce Daemons as Day-mons and will not say it as De-mons. He also does not like the 3E Daemonettes because of the bared breasts. A tad prudish in my opinion but it takes all kinds of people and all kinds of opinions to make a fun world to live in.

As to the female gamers in 40k and in general, yes, they are out there. They are often treated to the Old Boys or GOLF mentality more often than not. Back when we had a local game shop, many women were treated poorly by a couple of the gaming geeks but those chaps were definitely the ones who would have trouble with getting even an inflatable girlfriend. Once a couple of ladies were part of the store regulars, they brought in others and we wound up with several women in our gaming groups. They were usually involved in the card games and RPGs or board games and I always suspected they did not delve too far into the miniature gaming because they associated them with toys like G.I. Joe or Barbie. Let's face it, we are playing with toys and some people are too "mature" to do that. I even painted every member of a Van Saar gang to resemble different G.I. Joe "action figures". Sadly Airtight was much more effective than Snake-Eyes but that is a different discussion.

I enjoy playing with female models on the table. I prefer they be aesthetically pleasing but I also like them to be somewhat realistic. I enjoy gaming with female players. Actually, I enjoy interacting with women in most any way. If you want an ulterior motive, think of it like this. If you go to most games or tournies, you spend all day chatting and playing with a fellow. I won't even go into some of the more, ahem, unsavory physical and social traits you very well may encounter but we will let the words deodorant, mouthwash, comb, general health, and lack of fill in the blanks. However, if you have the good fortune to square off with a lady, then you can say that you spent the day chatting with a member of the opposite sex who will probably at least smell nicer than the average gentleman you will meet on the game table. And in some areas it is becoming more common to have female gamers present. Across the U.S. it is certainly becoming more prevalent that women are spending more than men on recreation and discretionary items. Advertisers are aware of this and have been changing their marketing for several years due to this trend. I look forward to the diversity this may bring to the game table and to the miniatures ranges I can buy.

Just my views on things, though.

[RogueGarou]

As to Vasquez, one of my Rogue Trader minis is a female carrying an autocannon. Definitely inspired by Aliens, I think.

[Melissia]

Space Marines isn't entirely fair

When you design the fluff specifically to exclude one part of the population-- and they did-- it is a very fair and valid comparison. But then there's also Sisters, whom are female-only, which sort of counters it out, except for the fact that there's no Sororitas sub-codices, but around seven Marine codices in total.


While I agree with the idea behind the letter, I'm rather uncomfortable about feminists. Extremist feminists scare me :P But honestly, female Guard models would undeniably sell well. People have been asking for them regularly over the years. Plastic Sisters would sell a LOT better than the metal ones do. And so on.

[Rapture]

I'd rather GW have no female models whatsoever as opposed to the company producing the T'nA crap that I have to see all the time. The 100lbs, D cup, sword wielding female should left to games that I don't play.

It is surprising that GW hasn't included some female parts intheir guard kits. Maybe if there is enough support the next guard recut or new guard option (Elysian please) will be a little more diverse. However, that would mean new heads, torsos, legs, and arms all designed to fit together. It would hurt the number of different combinations for the kit unless they released a male and female version, but that would be too expensive.

[Aldramelech]

I'd rather GW have no female models whatsoever as opposed to the company producing the T'nA crap that I have to see all the time. The 100lbs, D cup, sword wielding female should left to games that I don't play.

It is surprising that GW hasn't included some female parts intheir guard kits. Maybe if there is enough support the next guard recut or new guard option (Elysian please) will be a little more diverse. However, that would mean new heads, torsos, legs, and arms all designed to fit together. It would hurt the number of different combinations for the kit unless they released a male and female version, but that would be too expensive.

Not a fan of "Bat winged Bimbo's From Hell" or "Macho Women With Guns" then? lol

[Maria]

I'm female and play Space Marines ... RAWR!

[Aldramelech]

I'm female and play Space Marines ... RAWR!

Ding Dong! Helloooo Dolly. Lmao ;)

[Maria]

Ding Dong! Helloooo Dolly. Lmao ;)

I knew there was an advantage to playing a male dominated game ;) hahaha

[Rapture]

Not a fan of "Bat winged Bimbo's From Hell" or "Macho Women With Guns" then? lol
I don't mind women having guns at all. I just think that thongs on 28mm models are a little silly.

[gwensdad]

I knew there was an advantage to playing a male dominated game ;) hahaha

Thankfully, there is no personals section on the forums :)
(Single Female Tau player seeking male 20-24 for "The Greater Good"-that just wouldn't sound right)

[Maria]

Thankfully, there is no personals section on the forums :)
(Single Female Tau player seeking male 20-24 for "The Greater Good"-that just wouldn't sound right)

Oh gawd, that would be terrible! hahaha

[Aldramelech]

I don't mind women having guns at all. I just think that thongs on 28mm models are a little silly.

Their RPG's from the Eighty's :rolleyes:

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Well...I'm going to go out on a limb here and sound off, as an advocate of gaming in all forms. Hopefully I have expressed this without terribly infuriating anyone. here goes...

Most us who game intently...do so often to get away from tyrannical women in our lives who find our hobbies childish and stupid.

I had a girl one time totally dump me the moment she found out I played video games. Like, at all. She didn't care what kind.

My last girlfriend broke up with me because she thought I loved Warhammer more than her.

I have deep disdain for women overall, I won't lie. many of the things in my life have been ruined by some vindictive female or another, oftentimes simply because she could do it and no other reason. I have had bosses who fired me despite massive negative impacts on their departments, bosses who repeatedly sent my award-winning design work back to me to be done over for no discernible reason, my mother ignores everything I've ever done and incessantly badgers me to "invent something" so I can "make her rich," and I don't even want to tread on the ground of girlfriends. Generally this is hugely galvanized (and ladies, please try not to take offense to this...) by the fact that I have never met a woman who was a generally productive human being in a professional environment.

[puts on blast helmet]

I realize this is likely just a coincidence or a matter of circumstance, but it is hard to ignore a lifetime of indoctrination to such a thing. I call it like I see it, and I haven't seen much to the contrary of this negative image.

All that being said I have every wish for women to be treated as well as men in the gaming world. But to basically ask the entire universe to alter its practices because there are bored housewives and neglected WoW player girlfriends who pick up their kid's/husband's/significant other's games because they have no real other hobbies or want to see what all the fuss is about...well that is just a very stereotypically female thing to do. "MAKE IT HOW WE WAAAAAAAANNNNNT!" to not acknowledge the realities of gaming clubs and video gamer marriages across the country full of "My wife/girlfriend won't let me play today" situations is just arrogant.

Warhammer 40,000 is a game of brutal violence, horrific war, murder in cold blood, and destruction on an epic scale. Even despite this, it has armies that can appeal aesthetically to traditional female values; the Eldar are very feminine models (and look awesome), and the Sisters of battle are a nearly entirely female army and are a very good one at that (and for the freaky deakies, the Dark Eldar will be along soon, rest assured, heh).

Video games and Warhammer has been here waiting for me with it's grimdark open arms every time a woman has let me down or ruined my career or stomped on my heart in my life. No offense to those who genuinely like gaming, but this is a man's world and we built it because you forced us to seek shelter from the domestic slavery we all endure at one point or another.

I mean...you are talking to a guy who sees fathers and sons game each weekend happily and having great relationships with their kids while meanwhile I'm getting dumped by girls who just can't stand how much attention I put into "that stupid game." Meanwhile every girl I have ever seen set foot in my LGS or with my team on Xbox Live has either A.) never come back, B.) was not even remotely serious about their games, or C.) was someone's girlfriend/wife/friend, who was "giving it a chance" / "checking it out."

I will just come out and say it flat out, I have never met a real female gamer in my life. This is probably likely because there isn't one.

it is very arrogant to insinute that either GW or the game community (be it video or otherwise) should adjust their practices just because a relatively pathetically small handful of women are doing what women do best, and demanding attention from a male-dominated social circle that does not want to particularly give it to them.

I don't usually like to agree with Buffo, but he is right: this is as selfish and unrealistic as it is arrogant. That being said, my gaming group and my Xbox Live team are more than open to female gamers, if they have any kind of devoted interest in the game. What I don't like is Girlfriend Gamers, or Fairweather Gamers who are just there to pass the time between boyfriend visits, or perhaps the worst ones...those girls who masquerade as dedicated players and show up to your Warhammer club with 212 points of unpainted models and no rulebook, because it's a place full of guys who are geeky and shy enough to be enamored with their presence with minimal effort. I've witnessed all of these more times than I can count, and I'm quite happy to say...if you love 40k, then come join us. But if you want it to be prettier and girlier so it's more "marketed" towarded you...then you don't really like what we like anyway, because the main thing I like about Warhammer is that A.) it's NOT pretty or feminine, it has balls the size of a strike cruiser, and B.) there are NO TYRANNICAL WOMEN INVOLVED.

[Sorry if I offended the ladies of the board, I'm not as sexist as I sound...wanting to be welcomed in gaming groups is one thing and is a great thing to strive for. But wanting the games themselves to be transformed to be more to your liking is simply stuck up.]

That's my $.02. See you guys on the other side! **runs as mob of angry women tries to chainsword him**

[Maria]

I play DAoC, WoW and now Warhammer 40k .. i will also add my hubby only plays WoW ( he doesn't like my dolls ) so i guess you could say i am a real gamer and i don't play because my hubby does ... you seem like an arse .. an honest arse but an arse nonetheless! ;)

EDIT: I don't expect GW to change anything.

[Aeirling of Steirm Canoir]

I'm a guy and i have a deep disdain for men who blame all the problems in their life on women. I feel it is an act of cowardice that indicates that said man is not man enough to face the problems of the world, therefore must blame everything that goes wrong in his life on the opposite sex. However, this is beside the point.

Women do play 40k, along with fantasy and other games of that nature.


again, I don't expect to see Gw radically change the entire game, i just think that the game needs more female models.

It would also be nice to see GW and other games makers encouraging and Appreciating the female gaming community. (Trust me, it's larger than you think)

[Aldramelech]

Well...I'm going to go out on a limb here and sound off, as an advocate of gaming in all forms. Hopefully I have expressed this without terribly infuriating anyone. here goes...

Most us who game intently...do so often to get away from tyrannical women in our lives who find our hobbies childish and stupid.

I had a girl one time totally dump me the moment she found out I played video games. Like, at all. She didn't care what kind.

My last girlfriend broke up with me because she thought I loved Warhammer more than her.

I have deep disdain for women overall, I won't lie. many of the things in my life have been ruined by some vindictive female or another, oftentimes simply because she could do it and no other reason. I have had bosses who fired me despite massive negative impacts on their departments, bosses who repeatedly sent my award-winning design work back to me to be done over for no discernible reason, my mother ignores everything I've ever done and incessantly badgers me to "invent something" so I can "make her rich," and I don't even want to tread on the ground of girlfriends. Generally this is hugely galvanized (and ladies, please try not to take offense to this...) by the fact that I have never met a woman who was a generally productive human being in a professional environment.

[puts on blast helmet]

I realize this is likely just a coincidence or a matter of circumstance, but it is hard to ignore a lifetime of indoctrination to such a thing. I call it like I see it, and I haven't seen much to the contrary of this negative image.

All that being said I have every wish for women to be treated as well as men in the gaming world. But to basically ask the entire universe to alter its practices because there are bored housewives and neglected WoW player girlfriends who pick up their kid's/husband's/significant other's games because they have no real other hobbies or want to see what all the fuss is about...well that is just a very stereotypically female thing to do. "MAKE IT HOW WE WAAAAAAAANNNNNT!" to not acknowledge the realities of gaming clubs and video gamer marriages across the country full of "My wife/girlfriend won't let me play today" situations is just arrogant.

Warhammer 40,000 is a game of brutal violence, horrific war, murder in cold blood, and destruction on an epic scale. Even despite this, it has armies that can appeal aesthetically to traditional female values; the Eldar are very feminine models (and look awesome), and the Sisters of battle are a nearly entirely female army and are a very good one at that (and for the freaky deakies, the Dark Eldar will be along soon, rest assured, heh).

Video games and Warhammer has been here waiting for me with it's grimdark open arms every time a woman has let me down or ruined my career or stomped on my heart in my life. No offense to those who genuinely like gaming, but this is a man's world and we built it because you forced us to seek shelter from the domestic slavery we all endure at one point or another.

I mean...you are talking to a guy who sees fathers and sons game each weekend happily and having great relationships with their kids while meanwhile I'm getting dumped by girls who just can't stand how much attention I put into "that stupid game." Meanwhile every girl I have ever seen set foot in my LGS or with my team on Xbox Live has either A.) never come back, B.) was not even remotely serious about their games, or C.) was someone's girlfriend/wife/friend, who was "giving it a chance" / "checking it out."

I will just come out and say it flat out, I have never met a real female gamer in my life. This is probably likely because there isn't one.

it is very arrogant to insinute that either GW or the game community (be it video or otherwise) should adjust their practices just because a relatively pathetically small handful of women are doing what women do best, and demanding attention from a male-dominated social circle that does not want to particularly give it to them.

I don't usually like to agree with Buffo, but he is right: this is as selfish and unrealistic as it is arrogant. That being said, my gaming group and my Xbox Live team are more than open to female gamers, if they have any kind of devoted interest in the game. What I don't like is Girlfriend Gamers, or Fairweather Gamers who are just there to pass the time between boyfriend visits, or perhaps the worst ones...those girls who masquerade as dedicated players and show up to your Warhammer club with 212 points of unpainted models and no rulebook, because it's a place full of guys who are geeky and shy enough to be enamored with their presence with minimal effort. I've witnessed all of these more times than I can count, and I'm quite happy to say...if you love 40k, then come join us. But if you want it to be prettier and girlier so it's more "marketed" towarded you...then you don't really like what we like anyway, because the main thing I like about Warhammer is that A.) it's NOT pretty or feminine, it has balls the size of a strike cruiser, and B.) there are NO TYRANNICAL WOMEN INVOLVED.

[Sorry if I offended the ladies of the board, I'm not as sexist as I sound...wanting to be welcomed in gaming groups is one thing and is a great thing to strive for. But wanting the games themselves to be transformed to be more to your liking is simply stuck up.]

That's my $.02. See you guys on the other side! **runs as mob of angry women tries to chainsword him**

Wow! Dude you got serious issues! lol

For all that some of what you've said does make sense....... sort of.

The Game and indeed games in general are the traditional preserve of men/boys. It has its roots in playing with toy soldiers and with the Military as a training tool (Sand Table exercises). GW was started and grew by men for men, girls have Barbie, My little pony, boy bands, make up and hair straighteners. Thats life, thats how things are. Now Ive stated many times that I would like there to be more female gamers and I want some female guard figures But, and its a big one, what I don't want is an influx of politically correct feminists invading the hobby and demanding that we all change our Neanderthal ways. If you want to take part, great! If you want to whine and ***** that you don't like this and you want that changed, oh and by the way your figures are demeaning to women and encourage little boys to be rapists, then Jog on!

Thankfully most serious female gamers in my experience are not like this at all and would not want to be connected to this letter, so I'm kinda wondering where the feminist rant originated from?

[Aldramelech]

I'm a guy and i have a deep disdain for men who blame all the problems in their life on women. I feel it is an act of cowardice that indicates that said man is not man enough to face the problems of the world, therefore must blame everything that goes wrong in his life on the opposite sex. However, this is beside the point.

Women do play 40k, along with fantasy and other games of that nature.


again, I don't expect to see Gw radically change the entire game, i just think that the game needs more female models.

It would also be nice to see GW and other games makers encouraging and Appreciating the female gaming community. (Trust me, it's larger than you think)

Tad harsh my friend, we dont have all the facts.

[Maria]

I'd like to think of the post as a tongue in cheek, sarcastic one with no real meaning :)

[Old_Paladin]

Well...I'm going to go out on a limb here and sound off, as an advocate of gaming in all forms. Hopefully I have expressed this without terribly infuriating anyone. here goes...

That's my $.02. See you guys on the other side! **runs as mob of angry women tries to chainsword him**

I think it tooks some guts to say what he did. He knew it was probably going to be seen negitively; but he said what he had too.
I feel that he's just had a really bad run of luck; but I've been through everything he has, just to a lesser extent. My mom started playing head-games with me when I turned 20, cuz she wanted me to leave the house. I've had several ex-girlfriends that we're just petty and crule. I've had female teachers that were quite open about giving male students lower marks because "it helped even out all the damage we men had done to women in the past and will do again in the future!"
Luckily, I have a great wife now; and it really helped make my life better. But I could see me having similar views if pushed a little harder.

That said, I also feel there is a good number of serious female gamers (although it probably tends to vary in different locations and hobby [tabletop vs. video games]).

As a final note, GW doesn't care about your gender [or age, race or religion for that matter]; they only have one group that they want to please: SPACE MARINES! You fit into that 50% of corporate sale demonination they they might listen to what you say.

[Melissia]

Although this might sound unnecessarily harsh, I feel like I need to say it: If he wants to literally exclude me from my hobby because he's had a ****ty life, I can't say I care or feel any sympathy for him. Maybe I'm just reading too much into what he's saying, and if I am, I apologize.

Still. It's like the idiotic men in my life whom claim that I shouldn't be going to a shooting range because I'm a woman and firing guns is a man's thing. Because obviously, the zombies won't go after me during the apocalypse on account of my boobs, right :P Or the driving instructor whom gave me a lower score because "women can't drive" (funny, I haven't gotten in a wreck or gotten a ticket in.. eight years of driving?), or college teachers whom give certain pretty female students lower grades and then try and blackmail sex out of them (though that might just be an urban legend nowadays, it still goes about the rumor mill every now and again). Your life sucks, yeah. But you're not alone in that. Not tryin' to make a feminist rant, I'm just pointing out that you're not the only one whom has received **** from the opposite sex.

And well, the world is changing. For the better, I would hope. Women are getting more and more into gaming, computer, console, tabletop, pen and paper. My sixty something year old mother plays casual games on her cheap computer every now and then. My sister owns a wii of her own. The person whom introduced me to 40K was female, and I know several females in my TF2 clan, and run across more and more as time goes by. Gaming in general is becoming mainstream for that matter...

[Commissar Lewis]

To some degree, I agree with some points Emperor made. However, though, not all women can be vicious and outright evil. Though I did have one chick that pretended to like me, and when I asked her out she told me she was just pretending and it was a joke. Sent me into a two-year spiral of depression and feeling worthless and bitterness. Now I've rallied back and am just pessimistic and cynical. But hell, I don't blame all women; just that harpy who can frankly eat a shotgun barrel.

Point I'm making here is, not all women would want to wreck the hobby, and it would still be a bastion from the occasional oppressive wife. Hell, if they ain't there, it's a refuge. And failing that, one could always commit a minor crime and get some jail time, haha.

Point #2 I'm gonna make is whenever someone raises the issue of making it more accessible to women the debate somewhere degrades and derails into a gender issue. And frankly, there would be issues needed to be resolved. Hell, as someone pointed out I'm sure, the 40k community's largest demographic is the nerdy guys. Some of them, if CE has taught me anything, have gotten rejected and are so bitter it borders on outright misogyny. Now not all of them are like this; I'm not making a blanket statement ( or trying not to generalize, anyway), but there are a good amount of them. So those issues would need to be squared away.

And point #3 is the community itself, similar to point 2. You would have some extremes that honestly would throw a Spanner in the Works: the bitter geeky type guys, the Leisure Suit Larry wannabes that be hitting on the women all the time, the hardcore feminists that want the game changed, and the casual women through maybe painting pink marines might piss off your hardcore 40k guys. Now these might not exist exactly, I'm just making a guess about what kinds of people would raises problems.

In conclusion, I'm all for more women in 40k. However, it would take some work from the community to make it more accessible, attitude-wise. Maybe GW by making some more female models. However if they make a new army just for the sake of attracting more females, that army would quickly become The Scrappy, if not The Wesley based on how much attention it is given by GW.

Disclaimer: this is opinion; I'm not making a dig at anyone here. My examples of people are just wild *** guess at the possible problematic types.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Wow, there's alot of emotional baggage in this thread.

[Rapture]

... a relatively pathetically small handful of women are doing what women do best, and demanding attention from a male-dominated social circle that does not want to particularly give it to them.


Please come back and say that you were being sarcastic or making some feble attempt at humor.

[Lerra]

To all the male gamers out there: Please, for the sake of humanity, don't date a girl who hates gamers! You will be miserable, she will be miserable, and we'll all have to live with your misery. You deserve to have a girl who respects you, your choice of hobbies, and your free time. If you can't find this, stay single for pete's sake! There is nothing wrong with being single, and it is much preferable to being miserable. Sure, people poke fun at gamers for being single, but who cares what the rest of the world thinks? This is about your life and your happiness and that's way too important to let societal expectations get in the way. There are tons of perfectly fulfilled single people out there.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

To all the male gamers out there: Please, for the sake of humanity, don't date a girl who hates gamers! You will be miserable, she will be miserable, and we'll all have to live with your misery. You deserve to have a girl who respects you, your choice of hobbies, and your free time. If you can't find this, stay single for pete's sake! There is nothing wrong with being single, and it is much preferable to being miserable. Sure, people poke fun at gamers for being single, but who cares what the rest of the world thinks? This is about your life and your happiness and that's way too important to let societal expectations get in the way. There are tons of perfectly fulfilled single people out there.

Haha


Welcome to E-Harmony: BOLS Chapter. Where male gamers get advice from female gamers on how to catch that certain someone's eye. Be it a snazzy paint scheme or surprisingly good hygiene you are sure to snag some lucky lady at your local game club.


Seriously guys, is it really so bad? Is life so hard that you have to pidgeon-hole all women into attention grabbing control freaks, or you feel the need to teach male gamers how to meet female gamers? It really is pathetic, there is a social dynamic to this hobby, but this isn't it. Games Workshop does need to do a better job of marketing its male centered game to females, because more customers is good for all customers.

[Maria]

I'm happy with how GW market things, i'm also happy with the reception i get from my local GW when i go to buy, paint or play. My hubby has no interest in table top gaming whatsoever so it's nice to get out and talk to like-minded people. This thread is getting out of hand a tad.

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, this topic has a lot in common now with one of my favorite songs. Crazy Train, in that is has gone off the rails a bit.

[entendre_entendre]

yeah, this topic has a lot in common now with one of my favorite songs. Crazy train, in that is has gone off the rails a bit.

aaaallllllllll aabooooorrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahaha!

[Commissar Lewis]

*begins playing riff to crazy Train*

[Morgrim]

One thing that is confusing me... why do so many people think female models with equal more female gamers? *scratches head*

Slightly off topic, but genuinely perplexing. I can't help the feeling that I've missed something.

[Lord Azaghul]

One thing that is confusing me... why do so many people think female models with equal more female gamers? *scratches head*

Slightly off topic, but genuinely perplexing. I can't help the feeling that I've missed something.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

Honestly I don't want every 5th cadian in my 10man box to be a female...I just don't. Throw some character in a blister and if the models has good rules it'll sell.

The models are male because the large majority of players are male, and males identify easier with other males...
would I care if gw release an entire boxset of female cadians - no, in fact I've probably buy a small box and make a squad of veterns out of them, but is gw going to redesign the 10 man box set because 1 letter posted by their smallest market...doubtful.

In all my years of gw gaming I've met all of 2 female gw gamers, one of married to a gamer, had a kid and stopped playing. The other...was one of the poorest opponents I've ever played, she gave up the second she took a casualtiy...How many men have I met in this hobby...?

Now LARPing however...that's where the girls at at!

[eldargal]

Do you mean why do people think more female models will result in more female gamers, or why do people start talking about female models in a thread about female gamers?

Well, while the reason I want more female models is because they are in the fluff, I do think it will help give a more positive image to girls. I know seven or eight other girls who actively play, and another ten or so who love the fluff but won't play or collect because they can't have a major feminine presence in the army without collecting sisters (as Even Eldar are limited to 3 elite slots worth of Howling Banshees, assuming you don't want any other elite choices). At the same time they see and hear about sisters being one of the most neglected armies. What kind of message does that send to a girl contemplating entering the hobby?


One thing that is confusing me... why do so many people think female models with equal more female gamers? *scratches head*

Slightly off topic, but genuinely perplexing. I can't help the feeling that I've missed something.

[Lord Azaghul]

What kind of message does that send to a girl contemplating entering the hobby?

I'm sure that their self esteem will be absolutely crushed, and a made for tv movie will appear on the lmn network talking about how gw has ruined the lives of millions of young girls and the next day gw will be picketedd by angry mothers, concerned fathers and feminst everywere...but not a single male gamer!

Why 'Cause LMN network doesn't cater to the majority of gamers...that how marketing demographics work.
There doesn't 'need' to be a more 'feminane presense' That's like democrates complaining about how republicans aren't enough like democrates: silly and pointless, generates 2 random cnn stores, and turns a non-issue into an PC issue (which is also a nonissue).

Wargames marketing: 90% male.
Yogut Commerail: 90% women.
Axe Deoterant 90% teenage boys.
and many many more, and that's just the simple fact of who buys these products

[eldargal]

Right, god forbid Games Workshop encourage sales growth in a new demographic.


I'm sure that their self esteem will be absolutely crushed, and a made for tv movie will appear on the lmn network talking about how gw has ruined the lives of millions of young girls and the next day gw will be picketedd by angry mothers, concerned fathers and feminst everywere...but not a single male gamer!

Why 'Cause LMN network doesn't cater to the majority of gamers...that how marketing demographics work.
There doesn't 'need' to be a more 'feminane presense' That's like democrates complaining about how republicans aren't enough like democrates: silly and pointless, generates 2 random cnn stores, and turns a non-issue into an PC issue (which is also a nonissue).

Wargames marketing: 90% male.
Yogut Commerail: 90% women.
Axe Deoterant 90% teenage boys.
and many many more, and that's just the simple fact of who buys these products

[Pi666]

Spiky thread...

In my opinion, saying that there would be more female players if there were more women minis is like saying there would be more chinese playing backgammon if there were yellow counters or more Muslim Radicals playing IG if there were an suicide bomber unit... completely nonsense.

I don't know any female gamer, i know some girls that paint minis (very well actually, women are genetically enhanced for craftmanship!).

I think there are two big reasons why women doesn't play.

1.- 75% of the gamers are teens (or in the worst cases, mid-20's or more) who the closest they had a woman is their computer screen. It's very very scary entering a store, a tournament and watch dozens of boys sweat an stare.

2.- Most of women don't like killing.


What to do to make more women play? I don't know, equal I don't know how to make more men being nurse.


My final thought is: if you don't like anything, pass, don't try to change that thing in order you'd like it.

[Lord Azaghul]

Right, god forbid Games Workshop encourage sales growth in a new demographic.

God forbid they alienate their current one.

[eldargal]

Yes, I foresee mass walk outs from game clubs accross the world when the first female farseer and IG blisters come up for sale.:rolleyes:


God forbid they alienate their current one.

[Maria]

Oh dear, some men really don't like women invading their territory do they? well i will gladly share my barbies with anyone who asks ;)
On a serious note i did consider Sisters of Battle but decided they looked too much like Glynis Barber! Space Marines look way better :)

[Lord Azaghul]

Yes, I foresee mass walk outs from game clubs accross the world when the first female farseer and IG blisters come up for sale.:rolleyes:

Dang straight, it would get a made for tv movie...also on the LMN network.

My point was if they PC the game, the majority of gamers won't be interested in the products.
The point has also been made that making a few (or many) female blisters, will in all likely hood NOT increase female players.

If you want female models dig around REAVER mini's and do yourself a few conversions. Which brings up the thought, I still don't see many more women playing D&D (or similar) dispite the vaste amounts of female models and character builds.

[DoctorEvil]

Well, while the reason I want more female models is because they are in the fluff, I do think it will help give a more positive image to girls. I know seven or eight other girls who actively play, and another ten or so who love the fluff but won't play or collect because they can't have a major feminine presence in the army without collecting sisters (as Even Eldar are limited to 3 elite slots worth of Howling Banshees, assuming you don't want any other elite choices). At the same time they see and hear about sisters being one of the most neglected armies. What kind of message does that send to a girl contemplating entering the hobby?

I guess my question is, why are female gamers continuing to support GW products if they aren't giving them what they want?

In fact, why aren't those female gamers flocking to a game like Warmachine, where nearly half the warcasters models are female with a very low percentage of them being moded in a inapproriate manner.

[Gotthammer]

Probably has something to do with Warmachine's slogan being "play like you've got a pair" (http://1d4chan.org/images/0/03/Skubmachine.jpg) (also epic ironic fail at Warmachine now releasing plastics). They're probably supporting GW for the same reason all the people who complain non stop about prices, codex updates, White Dwarf, prices, marine overload, LoTR etc complain - they love the game and want to see it better. It's just that their vision of better does not marry up with GW corporates, so they get annoyed.


@ Lord Azaghul - I see an almost 50/50 split in genders in roleplayers, but that can be very localised due to roleplaying often needing a much more involved group that knows each other, than pickup games once a week at the local GW with whoever brought 40k.

Personally I'd like to see Forge World do a conversion kit for the Catachan and Cadian kits for female troopers ( and whole Mordian and Valhallan lines with the option of). It would satisfy the fairly niche market without annoying those who don't want the option in the box kits.

It's not that I want it to PCify the game, but rather painting dozens of bald screaming dudes get old after a while, and there are only so many conversion options out there before they all start looking the same*.

* Many people point out the female guard minis - Rocket Girl & Warrior Woman from the Last Chancers, the female Tanith Ghost, the female Commisar and the female Catachan w GL. The downside is they are all terrible miniatures by and large.
Rocket Girl kinda fits with the Catachans, but she's not buff in any way shape or form, especially for someone with a heavy weapon, and especially someone from Catachan.
Warrior Woman has a Cadian helmet on, but she would look stupid with my Cadians due to her miniskirt and tank top.
The female Commisar is an ugly model - not that the figure need to be sculpted attractively, but the model just looks bad. Poor pose, poor proportions and ridiculous outfit. She's meant to be a fearsome authority figure with the power of summary execution over any IG personell, yet she's dressed like that?
The Catachan w GL is the same as Rocket Girl.[/rant]

[Aeirling of Steirm Canoir]

Dang straight, it would get a made for tv movie...also on the LMN network.

My point was if they PC the game, the majority of gamers won't be interested in the products.
The point has also been made that making a few (or many) female blisters, will in all likely hood NOT increase female players.

If you want female models dig around REAVER mini's and do yourself a few conversions. Which brings up the thought, I still don't see many more women playing D&D (or similar) dispite the vaste amounts of female models and character builds.

Actually, i know alot of women who play D&d.

[Aldramelech]

Oh dear, some men really don't like women invading their territory do they? well i will gladly share my barbies with anyone who asks ;)
On a serious note i did consider Sisters of Battle but decided they looked too much like Glynis Barber! Space Marines look way better :)

Lmao! Maria you rock!

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Well, while the reason I want more female models is because they are in the fluff, I do think it will help give a more positive image to girls. With respect...what do you think happens to a woman in a regiment full of men who are desperate and sent to almost certain death on a daily basis in the Imperial Guard?

The Imperium of Man is one of the most hateful, racist, discriminatory organizations in all of science fiction's history. And you think it is just fine to change the fluff so that it is all of a sudden an equal opportunity employer? I find this a little crude, considering that allegedly if female gamers like the game itself, then surely the game itself must have appeal beyond "I want to play as girls!!"

I don't like Warhammer because the models are male. I like Warhammer because it's story is awesome. It should not be changed for any alleged 'fans' who want to be 'marketed to'...it would compromise the integrity of the whole game.

As far as female gamers go, I recently met two girls who are supposedly very into the game. Those are the first and only two that were independently interested in the game since 2006 when I started. I have already said many times that I welcome women into the hobby...but part of what makes Warhammer great is that it is what it is regardless of public opinion, it is uncompromising and unyielding like the characters good and evil that are represented within its fiction. I don't want it compromised for anyone, not even me.

[Crevab]

I'm pretty sure Rape is pretty far up there on the Commissar's "Reasons to Shoot You" list.
I take it you've never read anything like say the Ciaphas Cain books?

[Aldramelech]

Wargaming in general is the last bastion against political correctness and this is why so many men find it appealing, and possibly why lots of women don't. We are, when all is said and done, boys who are still playing with our toy soldiers and again this does not appeal to women in general. How many clubs are there in the world for women to play Barbie? How many women still play Barbie (apart from Maria! lol)?

The reason there are so few females in the hobby is that a large percentage regard it as childish, geeky and very uncool, not because we are a bunch of troglodyte misogynist borderline rapists. By and large we are not the problem, they are!
Their perceptions of the hobby are as biased as mens perceptions of women.

Female figures - I don't think anyone would argue with that.
More Female gamers - Yes please, I enjoy the company of women.
Political Correctness, minding my P's and Q's, putting dresses on Demonettes? No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO!

[Maria]

I believe wargaming was created by men for men .. women are venturing in with full knowledge of that and any female who steps in and says 'Hey, liking the game but i wanna be able to have female figures' should really rethink why they want to play in the first place.

The only thing i decided to have girlie is my dice, i have lovely frosted baby pink ones and get ribbed for them too, hehe

[Lord Azaghul]

Political Correctness, minding my P's and Q's, putting dresses on Demonettes? No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO!


I believe wargaming was created by men for men .. women are venturing in with full knowledge of that and any female who steps in and says 'Hey, liking the game but i wanna be able to have female figures' should really rethink why they want to play in the first place.

The only thing i decided to have girlie is my dice, i have lovely frosted baby pink ones and get ribbed for them too, hehe


I completely agree with both of you!
And yes to reiterate, Maria you rock!

[Duke]

@ Maria: You are spot on, I believe that if you choose to play a game then play it for what it is... Don't start playing American Football and compalin that it doesn't have a goalie in the endzone. Sure it would be neat to see more 'variety,' in modelling.

For Example: There are certain activities that are female driven and dominated. One I have seen is Scrapbooking, should I go to my wife and complain that there aren't enough stamps that have male themes? "Why aren't there any stamps with a mushroom cloud and body pieces! IM PISSED!" perhaps I should demand that half of the stickers should include masculine themes (more than just sports).

Everyone is welcome to play, this game (like everything) gets better with diversity, but don't try to bring 'balance to the force' of 40k... the galaxy is sick and twisted and I like it that way.

Duke

[Gotthammer]

Modern miniature wargaming is generally held to have been started by HG Wells (a noted pacafist) with his 1913 book "Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books."

So created by a man, for boys and girls of all ages who like that sort of thing.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I believe wargaming was created by men for men .. women are venturing in with full knowledge of that and any female who steps in and says 'Hey, liking the game but i wanna be able to have female figures' should really rethink why they want to play in the first place. A much more succinct and much less offensive way of saying how I feel on the matter, for the record. Thank you for acknowledging this, Maria.

[Lerra]

Modern miniature wargaming is generally held to have been started by HG Wells (a noted pacafist) with his 1913 book "Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books."
.

I love that quote. :D Can I add that to my signature, with your permission?

I don't think anyone is saying that 40k needs to be more PC or softer in any way - just that GW could make money by adding a greater variety of models to the range. There is demand for more female models from both men and women. It wouldn't be that hard to add one extra (optional) female torso and head to the Cadian box, for example. I'm pretty sure that box comes with extra torsos and heads already.

Personally, I buy about 50% GW models and 50% other companies (mostly Privateer Press and RAFM's Cthulu minis) to use in 40k. I buy PP mostly for the female models. If they were available from GW, I would buy them from GW instead.

[Lord Azaghul]

I'm pretty sure that box comes with extra torsos and heads already.

.

Nope, just extra heads and arms. GW doesn't want anyone getting a 'free' model out of box...cause if they gave you an extra torso you'd somehow find extra legs and you'd never buy another box of models ever again, ever.

[Gotthammer]

I love that quote. :D Can I add that to my signature, with your permission?

Go for it, most of it's the book's title anyway :)

[Nabterayl]

With respect...what do you think happens to a woman in a regiment full of men who are desperate and sent to almost certain death on a daily basis in the Imperial Guard?

The Imperium of Man is one of the most hateful, racist, discriminatory organizations in all of science fiction's history. And you think it is just fine to change the fluff so that it is all of a sudden an equal opportunity employer? I find this a little crude, considering that allegedly if female gamers like the game itself, then surely the game itself must have appeal beyond "I want to play as girls!!"
Without arguing about the whole wargaming thing, I don't actually think you're picturing the Guard correctly. The Guard imposes certain organizational restrictions on the cultures it recruits from, but not many. You aren't allowed to fight using swords and shields, but you are allowed to fight using hunting lances, for instance. Nobody's going to make you use proper small unit tactics if you come from a planet that's barely invented the battle line. You prefer the term "warlord" to "colonel?" Fine by the Guard. Come from a planet that doesn't even have widespread internal combustion? No problem - the Munitorum will just collect all-infantry regiments from you.

My point is that the Guard and the Munitorum interfere surprisingly little with the martial cultures from which they draw their regiments. It's actually one of the many sources of martial inefficiency in the Guard as a war machine, though it does ease the administrative burden of raising so many regiments. Beyond requiring that all Guardsmen fight with certain weapons (which is itself a concession to the administrative burden of having so many regiments), regiments are essentially free to preserve their local martial cultures.

As a result, I don't think you're going to find many situations where women are "dropped into" all-male regiments. If a woman is in a Guard regiment at all, it's because that's how her planet rolls. Are there plenty of hateful, sexist, misogynist martial cultures represented within the Guard? Sure, undoubtedly - but those aren't the sort of cultures that are likely to allow women to fight anyway.

There will be borderline cases, of course, where a planet's culture is in a transition period so women can join regiments but still face lots of resistance from certain segments of the military. And of course, even in the tolerant cultures, people are going to be raped and abused and murdered by their fellow soldiers - that's just the sort of thing that happens when you get enough people in the same place, even in cultures with no particular sexist tendencies.

But it's hardly "changing the fluff" to say that there are women in the Guard. The Imperium isn't an equal opportunity employer, but it isn't a discriminatory employer either. The Munitorum doesn't care if you come from a planet of sexist pigs that would make the Taliban blush or if you come from an Amazon planet where men are allowed to do nothing but breed, as long as you pony up your tithe of Guard regiments.

[Melissia]

If anyone wants to argue that it's "changing the fluff", then I think they probably want to send an angry letter to Sandy Mitchel, whom has done six books thus far involving mixed units and has plenty of notes and fluff tidbits about females in the Guard.

The Guard just wants you to point your *******ed lasgun in the right direction and not route when push comes to shove. At an organizational level, the Guard doesn't care if the person holding that lasgun has tits or not.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

That is sort of my point. If it is that irrelevant to the game, then why does it matter if the model is female?

Moreover why does everyone seem to be hung up on it for the Guard, when the Eldar and Tau have tons of females? The Eldar models are also quite gorgeous, most of the time.

[Nabterayl]

Moreover why does everyone seem to be hung up on it for the Guard, when the Eldar and Tau have tons of females?
I don't actually think anybody is, or at least not anybody in this thread. All I've heard so far is "It'd be nice if ..." That hardly qualifies as "hung up" in my book.

I hear what you've said in this post and in others about having bad experiences with the nexus of women and gaming, and I respect that. Respectfully, though, I wonder if your experiences are leading you to hear the comments in this thread as more complaining than they actually are.

[Melissia]

As said above, I would LIKE female Guard models. Not like I want to boycott GW for them not having any. Just that I, and a great deal of people aside from myself, would purchase them if they were tastefully done. For myself, I'm thinking especially of a female officer whom isn't dressed like a skank (looking at you, commissar). My regiment is a mixed regiment, and having the occasional female member thrown in to random squads would be great-- a box of female Guardsmen could just as easily be split apart and mixed in to other squads as it could be kept together. And a female officer would be awesome-- I have to convert a non-GW model in order to represent my regiment's colonel properly. That's money that's going towards GW's competitors.

[Mystery.Shadow]

Plenty of women gamers out there....

Just ask anyone who plays MMO games. And if GW would take a page out of the MMO book, nearly all MMOs allow a choice of being male or female. Wether it be Human, Dwarf or Elf, etc.

[eldargal]

Exactly.
No one wants to change 40k*, no wants to boycott 40k*, some of us would just like to have access to some more female models that are ALREADY present in the fluff. A few examples:
Valhallan 296th: One of Valhallas 'few all female regiments' (which implies most with mixed gender)
Half a dozen female Gaunt's Ghosts
Female farseers (mentioned a lot but never seen in model form)
"On the Chaos-plagued world of Cadia every man, woman and child is expected to serve in the Cadian Defense Force and, by extension, the Imperial Guard." Codex: Imperial Guard, page 8.
"The entire population of Cadia is destined for a military life, the birth rate and recruitment rate being synonymous" Page 14.
So fully half of Cadian recruits would be female if the entire population is drafted.

It would cost very little effort and money for GW to produce a few female IG choices (torsos and heads in plastic or a few metal models) and a female farseer. But it would show that there is a place for women in 40k, and this may help entice more women into the game.


As said above, I would LIKE female Guard models. Not like I want to boycott GW for them not having any. Just that I, and a great deal of people aside from myself, would purchase them if they were tastefully done. For myself, I'm thinking especially of a female officer whom isn't dressed like a skank (looking at you, commissar). My regiment is a mixed regiment, and having the occasional female member thrown in to random squads would be great-- a box of female Guardsmen could just as easily be split apart and mixed in to other squads as it could be kept together. And a female officer would be awesome-- I have to convert a non-GW model in order to represent my regiment's colonel properly. That's money that's going towards GW's competitors.

*It is so stupid that every discussion on female gamers devolves to this, and is a sign of the insecurity of certain male gamers more than anything else. I love 40k and do not want to change a thing, I just want what the fluff says I can have

[Rapture]

That is sort of my point. If it is that irrelevant to the game, then why does it matter if the model is female?

Moreover why does everyone seem to be hung up on it for the Guard, when the Eldar and Tau have tons of females? The Eldar models are also quite gorgeous, most of the time.

Whether or not the model has a head is irrelevant to the game but most people still glue them on top of the torsos.

[BuFFo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Morgrim]

I think the 'female models' argument is entirely irrelevant to this topic. It isn't going to change how many females play. And quite frankly I find the insinuations that all these things must change for the sake of females to be insulting. I am female and I play the game because I like the game. I do not like political correctness. I am amused that the last bastion of man is a fascist regime. I enjoy the 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and will shoot it just in case' mentality. And I quite enjoy pouncing on them out of the webway and dragging them away.

If someone doesn't like the hobby, they won't play it. Hell, there are a lot of males who look down on it, sneer, call it geeky, etc etc. Different strokes for different folks.

@Buffo: Your avatar makes me think of the FSM.

[Cryl]

I think the 'female models' argument is entirely irrelevant to this topic. It isn't going to change how many females play. And quite frankly I find the insinuations that all these things must change for the sake of females to be insulting. I am female and I play the game because I like the game. I do not like political correctness. I am amused that the last bastion of man is a fascist regime. I enjoy the 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and will shoot it just in case' mentality. And I quite enjoy pouncing on them out of the webway and dragging them away.

If someone doesn't like the hobby, they won't play it. Hell, there are a lot of males who look down on it, sneer, call it geeky, etc etc. Different strokes for different folks.

@Buffo: Your avatar makes me think of the FSM.

Agreed. It's two different issues. Lack of female models is something that doesn't actually affect the game just the hobby side, personally I'd like to see more options for IG particularly.

Lack of female players isn't going to change because we add some more female sculpts, this is a male dominated game because of the subject matter, simply put a grim dark universe with lots of killing and war is going to appeal to more men than ladies... same thing with a film, the viewing figures will be in favour of a male audience for something like transformers whereas Hannah Montana will have a mainly female viewing audience (these are examples of the top of my head and I have no real numbers to back this up so please don't flame me!)

[Aldramelech]

Agreed. It's two different issues. Lack of female models is something that doesn't actually affect the game just the hobby side, personally I'd like to see more options for IG particularly.

Lack of female players isn't going to change because we add some more female sculpts, this is a male dominated game because of the subject matter, simply put a grim dark universe with lots of killing and war is going to appeal to more men than ladies... same thing with a film, the viewing figures will be in favour of a male audience for something like transformers whereas Hannah Montana will have a mainly female viewing audience (these are examples of the top of my head and I have no real numbers to back this up so please don't flame me!)

Agreed. Men and Women are different, there is no escaping that fact.

[Cryl]

Agreed. Men and Women are different, there is no escaping that fact.

a good point and well made :p

[Miggidy Mack]

One of the things that has always gotten to me is this idea that busty women in fantasy is sexist. How many guys do you know that actually look like Conan? There are just as many ultra-ripped hyper masculine guys in popular fiction.

The art form accentuates the sexually defining body parts. Men have broad shoulders, squarer jaws and tree trunk arms and legs. Women have big boobs and accentuated waists. It's the art style, it's not sexist. It's seen in both men and women.

An observer needs to look no further than the Inquisitor models. The Ordo Hereticus female model is clearly older (in her 50's) but still attractive. She has that tall hairdo and is armored neck to toe. The male models are the exact same way. It's the art style. This isn't seen as sexist though, because both are clothed. The second both are half naked it's sexist?

[EmperorEternalXIX]

It's bull**** propagated by the group responsible for an awful lot of that sort of thing: Those aforementioned females not getting their proper fill of attention I mentioned earlier in the thread.

That isn't to say all women fit into this category, of course. But you ignore a girl for long enough...something's going to hit the fan. I promise you this, every time. It is just a matter of when.

Now you add that to a game that takes up a huge amount of your time, effort, and money, and is for all of us whether we admit it or not a labor of deep love for the game itself...and well you just have a polarized combination that is going to always run contrary to one another.

If the girls of the world want to come play this awesome game I'm all for it. But as I have said a million times: Demanding to be "marketed to" and having games altered to be more appealing to girls is simply pure arrogance (I'm looking at you, Vampire rules books that ubiquitously use "her" !!!).

[Maria]

Been married 15 years, hubby is a Guild Master on WoW .. i see more of the back of his head than anything else .. his raid times are 11pm til 3am which means i don't get any attention from him .. and tbh i don't care so i guess your theory isn't true of every girl .. just broke your promise :P

[Melissia]

Is EmperorEternalXIX even bothering to read peoples' posts now?

But I'll bite. Yes, GW should market a bit more to females. Why not? Getting more female gamers into it would be profitable. I don't see what the problem would be to have more to offer that half of the population, and besides, men also want female models in their armies, too-- just read this thread and you'll know that. 40K is becoming less and less a "man's world" or whatever bull**** label you want to use as time goes by, as women (Even if only gradually) get into it. I've introduced it to some of my friends, and many of them absolutely love the hobby portion of 40K. Painting, collecting, modifying, and all other artistic aspects of it appeal greatly to both genders and some of the more competitive women enjoy the gaming aspect as well-- and before you say anything, the hobby aspect is actually where GW gets a good deal of their profits IIRC.

And let's face it. Women today frequently act rather differently from women even ten years ago, nevermind more than that. Women are a sizeable and still-growing market for computer/console games today, for example, whereas we were almost unknown to the market a decade ago.

[Maria]

No idea but a few things are being brought up that really aren't relevant to the topic at hand, i get the feeling we are going around in circles, hehe

[Aldramelech]

I feel that all has been said that needs/shouldn't have been said at this point........

I think its time it went away.

[Maria]

Agreed :)

[Melissia]

Yeah, it probably is. Meh, I've had bad experiences, but I don't let it color my opinion of half the friggin' population.

[Valhallan42nd]

My point is not invalid. 40k needs to change its model range to accommodate women just as much as dressmakers need to change their styling to accommodate men.

Although I will agree tracking down the parts to convert Colonel Selar Barion for my IXth Astraean is proving to be quite an embuggerance. If only there was something like a female Mordian torso I'd snap it up like a shot. The rest should be easy from there.

http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/genocidal-overlord.jpg

http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

Ask and ye shall something, something.

[Lord Azaghul]

Ask and ye shall something, something.


And suddenly millions of women and girls everywhere went out and bought games workshop products, not only for themselves but for there sons, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends and daughters...and they all lived happily after.



Sorry I couldn't resist, I just thought this topic was over.

[Commissar Lewis]

Hm, this topics has both good points and some tangents that have not only gone off the road but have wrapped around a tree.

Although my pointing this out is in and of itself going off the road, so to speak.