Bikes are not Cav (a mini rant)

[gwensdad]

Just something that's been irking me lately from a rules and modeling POV...

I think it started when I was looking for rules for my boarboyz. The main resident Ork player said "Just use them as warbikes". But I disagree, using them as a bike is not the same as using them as a mounted unit. Then I found myself online and seeing people talking about using some other types of mounted creatures and just using them as bikes or mounting guard on bikes and calling them rough riders.

And it's irking me. Am I getting too worked up into a non-issue or do I have a point? They don't play the same. If I see bikes I expect them to move as bikes and if I see cav I expect them to move as cav.

OK, I think it's out of my system now. Thoughts?

[Nabterayl]

If an army has both in it, then I'd be irked. As long as the model only has one or the other, I don't find it hard to keep straight, personally. And I think it's worthwhile to encourage people to convert creatively, and/or find a use for old models that no longer fit the codex.

[Lerra]

I've seen a lot of fantastic conversions, and I'm more than happy to use counts-as rules for an awesome model.

Besides, when was the last time you actually saw cavalry on the table? Of course, that's likely to change with Space Wolves now, but I still would be surprised to see an army that runs both cavalry and bikes. As long as the opponent clarifies what all of their units are before battle, it should be fine.

[lobster-overlord]

I have had some old SM Jet bikes, and they work well as regular bikes, due to styling. However, I do have some OLDER SM motorcycle (wwII style) that would be perfect for Imperial Guard Rough Riders. They are not currently used in any army, and have IG style to them, so I don't see them as out of place for any IG army, but they would look odd as Space Marine due to the newer style of vehicle used. I also see horses out of place in some IG units, so these bikes would be right. Nothing wrong with counting them as Rough RIders amongst the players I play against either. THey are WYSIWYG based on weapons and bases as well.

Now if it is a current space marine bike, I'd like to see it as a current space marine bike (or other bike unit). Unless heavily modified to fit the unit it is replacing, such as a heavy weapons team.

John M>

[TheBitzBarn]

I personall Hate the Idea of Human on Horse in 40K I think it is Stupid as Hell. I love converts of WWII looking bikes for Rough Riders make MUCH more Fluff sense then horse back cav. That reminds me of Polish Cav charge on N.A.Z.I(N.A.Z.I. get edit but Hell is of what is wrong ?) German Panzer in 1939. STUPID Valiant but Stupid.

If the cav are alien then that works like a Lizard creature or Mechanical mounts like Ork on Cybork Pigs or something ALIEN it is ok but Humans on Horseback make me angry about how stupid that is and I REALLY get upset about it. It seems LAZY of GW's part to include them.

So i have to say I MUCH prefer the conversion and find myself on the other side of the issue

[BuFFo]

And it's irking me. Am I getting too worked up into a non-issue or do I have a point?

Its a non-issue.

40k is abouit converting as well as painting, playing and collecting.

You'll get used to it in time :)

[DarkLink]

And it's irking me. Am I getting too worked up into a non-issue or do I have a point? They don't play the same. If I see bikes I expect them to move as bikes and if I see cav I expect them to move as cav.

OK, I think it's out of my system now. Thoughts?

One of my friends [ex]girlfriends refered to his hobby as "playing with war-barbies".

Not really worth getting worked up over something minor, like how you conseptualize the difference between cavalry and bikes (neither of which make much sense from a realistic perspective anyways), and how those differences are handled in an abstract rule system.

[Old_Paladin]

I always felt that the bike conversions of rough riders usally looks really, really cool; and Ork boarboys are just fun and orky.

But I never understood the hate, so many people have for actual cavalry in the IG (other then the butt ugly models). The idea doesn't work for every imperial force; but it does work with a lot of them, Death Korp for example. If an imperial commander cares nothing for the lives of his men, just wants to feed them to the grinder by the millions until the enemy runs out of ammo, horses essentually double your manpower. They breed, so you don't have to have factories making bikes, grain and corn is used instead of valuable Prom, if the rider is killed the horse might still stomp on the enemy, if the horse is killed the rider can eat it, etc....

[brackfalker]

I personall Hate the Idea of Human on Horse in 40K I think it is Stupid as Hell. I love converts of WWII looking bikes for Rough Riders make MUCH more Fluff sense then horse back cav. That reminds me of Polish Cav charge on N.A.Z.I(N.A.Z.I. get edit but Hell is of what is wrong ?) German Panzer in 1939. STUPID Valiant but Stupid.

<snip>

While I agree that I think Rough Riders look really out of place in the 40K setting, there's a lot in 40K that's not realistic to real-life war. For instance brightly coloured marines, or even chainswords (why would you ever try to hit a guy with a glorified chainsaw in combat today let alone 38 millenia in the future)?

Also, there is no basis for the myth that Polish cavalry units charged Panzer tanks. It was purely a propaganda fabrication. I don't know how anyone could honestly believe that cavalry would charge tanks. Do you think you would ever follow an order like that?

[SeattleDV8]

True , didn't use lances but there were cavalry charges. They used the horses as a fast response force that did charge but would dismount to fight, they were augmented by anti-tank gun and machine gun sections as well as light tanks and infantrymen mounted on bicycles.
The last cavalry on cavalry charge was the Polish vs. a small German cavalry during the '39 invasion.
No they didn't charge head on into tanks but would break though the German lines , dismount and fight from behind them.

Sorry for the off topic post.

[brackfalker]

Never denied that the Poles used cavalry in 1939, merely that they charged tanks. I've heard people comment numerous times on how backwards and stupid the Poles were were Germany and USSR invaded, when in fact they were very capable. England and France failed to back-up their diplomacy, and Poland was left to fight a two-front war, advised by French generals who failed to adapt to blitzkrieg tactics despite having seen their effect in Poland. Just wanted to set that straight, as it irks me every time I hear it.

[SombreBrotherhood]

I think that the bikes = cavalry so long as it's made clear from the get-go, though a visual distinction (ie 4-wheelers) would be preferred.

After seeing the SW codex for the very first time I was unimpressed with the 'rides giant wolves into combat'...and then I thought it might be okay. Then I saw the ATV conversion from irondog studios, and thought that would make an awesome Thunderwolf. AND THEN I thought that I would build a Space Marine army using Chapterhouse Studios dragon/salamander bits, then put dudes on Dark Elf Cold Ones...they could be Dragon Marines that used SW rules, and you could leave your dino-riders at home and play Salamanders!

But then I regained my sanity and realized that I already have armies I've never painted and didn't need another.

[TheBitzBarn]

Also, there is no basis for the myth that Polish cavalry units charged Panzer tanks. It was purely a propaganda fabrication. I don't know how anyone could honestly believe that cavalry would charge tanks. Do you think you would ever follow an order like that?

Actually that is Historical fact they did They knew they were dead and they did it out of valor and the German commander said he had s soft spot for them and felt sad for the deaths and respect their valor

Do not get me Wrong I do not think the Poles were stupid. They were outgunned over powered and in a Horrible position they were, Like most European countries in 1939 NOT ready for a Mechanized Force like the Germany's. The Cav charge was a Stiff upper lip and We will go out with Honor thing not a stupidity thing. They were Doing the best they could and knew they were beat.

[Phasma Felis]

Actually that is Historical fact they did They knew they were dead and they did it out of valor and the German commander said he had s soft spot for them and felt sad for the deaths and respect their valor
It's a historical fact that they didn't. (http://www.historynet.com/polish-cavalry-charges-tanks.htm) The Germans whipped up a fake propaganda reel after the fact to make their enemies look stupid. It's a very persistent legend, for some reason. I wouldn't think Na zi propaganda films would be so convincing.

By the way, no offense, but in English we generally use capitalization at the beginning of sentences and for proper nouns. Capitalizing words at random is frowned upon. Sorry to change the subject.

[Denzark]

It's a historical fact that they didn't. (http://www.historynet.com/polish-cavalry-charges-tanks.htm) The Germans whipped up a fake propaganda reel after the fact to make their enemies look stupid. It's a very persistent legend, for some reason. I wouldn't think Na zi propaganda films would be so convincing.

By the way, no offense, but in English we generally use capitalization at the beginning of sentences and for proper nouns. Capitalizing words at random is frowned upon. Sorry to change the subject.

Your history is good. Your pedantry is annoying.

[Commissar Lewis]

Dude, now I need to convert some RRs on motorcycles for my Guard army. Sounds like an awesome idea.

Adding that to my conversion list, alongside guardswomen and Ogryns from Fantasy Ogres.

[sangrail777]

I got 18 "Rough Riders" converted on space marine bikes. just like the look better, still it be kool to use the turbo boost rules and all. actually i do it friendly games.
also, don't know about the polish charge but there was a Hezbulla(spelled wrong) cav charge against Israeli tanks and gun line not too long ago. ended with all cav slaughtered and no casualtys for the israel's i believe.

[eldargal]

Getting back to the OP and away from history, I think it is completely undesirable* to use bike rules to represent cavalry. Horses are alive and their psychology and physical capability plays a huge role in the way they were used in warfare. Horses can be spooked or simply become exhausted, bikes do not do either. Horses have a far lower maximum speed.
A horse in 40k should, in my opinion, be fleet infantry (Or move 8 inches, or whatever) rather than a vehicle. Afterall, if a bike moving at full speed can do 12 inches, it is foolish to have horsies matching that. (if you use bike rules then your cavalry gets turboboost too. Carrot on a stick yay.) Lose the extra point of toughness and give the rider an extra wound or maintain a seperate statline for the horse. Perhaps a D6 test for horse psychology each time the unit has to take/ a leadership test. Example:
1-2: 'Where are the brakes on this thing? Horses bolt, unit routs moving in a random direction (horses don't fall back in good order).
3-4: 'Calm down, girl! Have a sugar cube' Horse is spooked, loses fleet for its next turn.
5-6: 'Mah horsie don't fear nuffink' No adverse effects.


I think horses could have a place in 40k, when you think they are still used today by police in major cities. Perhaps not a typical front line choice, but groups of infiltrators using relatively silent horsies for added mobility when bike engines, exhaust fumes and such may give them away. That kind of thing. Scout cavalry.

*By which I mean innapropriate and unfortunate that bike rules are used, but understandable given the lack of clear mounted cavalry (lumped in as they are with beasts). Which is hardly an unforgivable oversight by GW.:rolleyes: I'm not trying to criticise players who do use bike rules to represent cavalry.

[Nabterayl]

A horse in 40k should, in my opinion, be fleet infantry (Or move 8 inches, or whatever) rather than a vehicle.
I don't mean to be dense, but I can't tell if you're criticizing the current implementation of the cavalry rules (where horses are fleet infantry, with a 12" charge, as I'm sure you know) or just criticizing the idea of using cavalry models as counts-as bikes. Or both?

[eldargal]

Sorry I was so unclear (I'm sleep deprived), yes I'm criticising 'counts as bikes'. I do think the cavalry rules could be improved though. The current rules suffice, but I think to differentiate themselves from bikes while representing the two lifeforms involves an extra wound or perhaps a save bonus would be warranted. I also think equine psychology would be a good thing, to represent the unreliable nature of horses in 'modern' warfare. I've edited my previous post to clarify it, I hope.


I don't mean to be dense, but I can't tell if you're criticizing the current implementation of the cavalry rules (where horses are fleet infantry, with a 12" charge, as I'm sure you know) or just criticizing the idea of using cavalry models as counts-as bikes. Or both?

[RogueGarou]

I'm cool with it as long as it is obvious what is being fielded as what. If I got wound up over that, then where would it stop? For instance, a very old friend of mine is getting back into 40k finally after several years hiatus. He is using his old Stunties army as Imperial Guard since they almost all have lasguns. If he decides to use his bikes/trikes they will probably be Sentinels or Rough Riders. Groovy. His armored Dwarves are Ogryn. Cool. Makes some kind of sense and I love seeing those old models on the table again.

Rough Riders were my second purchase when I started my IG army back in 2E and they have always performed well for me... except for the last time I played them and they took three Earthshaker and six mortar hits on turn 1. I did have two models left alive after all of that somehow but they turned and ran off the table. Oh, well, that makes up for some of their better performances. I only have the Attilan models and rather like them. I never fielded a Tallarn force so I never picked up their models but the whole Lawrence of Arabia/ Desert Raiders thing works for that theme, too.

As to the idea of horses being used it does have some explanation in the fluff. First, Attila is kind of a back-water world in the Imperium. They are used to using horses, breeding excellent warhorses, and carrying out all aspects of warfare from horseback. The horses may also sometimes have advantages over mechanized units such as bikes or Sentinels. For example, the horses could graze on local flora and not require as much support logistically. They can also travel into areas where many vehicles can not. The riders can subsist for a time by bleeding the animals and if needed the animals can be eaten to sustain the rider. I would imagine a transmission or heavy duty rubber tire would be quite filling and heavy on the stomach but without the right gravy or those little bottles of Tabasco sauce we used to get in MRE's, not all that tasty. :) Plus, the horses could also move more stealthily than many other units. For a skirmishing or scouting role, they are a good choice.

I like my Rough Riders but a lot of people do not like them. I like my Ratlings, too. I miss Beastmen and the old Human Bomb penitents, too. Electro Priests and some of the cool Mechanicus units would be nice to see make a comeback. And after seeing Goatboy's Space Goats, I am really thinking about converting some Beastmen to use for a Penal Legion squad, especially if they rolled up psychotic. But if anyone out there has Rough Riders and they dislike them enough, I am sure some of us who do like them would be glad to take them off your hands.

By the way, my Rough Riders do a pretty good job as a counter charge unit. If they ever get their pistol, chainsword, and lance all at the same time again, they would be even better. They can even make a good speed bump or objective contesting unit thanks to walk-run-fleet-charge. I've used them for a late game grab and no one ever seems to expect it.

[chromedog]

My rough riders are on bikes.
Not horses. I don't like horses. At all. They are bad mannered, foul smelling beasts. With teeth.
This is just the people who tend to own them irl. The animals are worse. :D
If I wanted to run horse cavalry I'd still be playing napoleonics or ancients.

My Guard regiment are recruited from a Hive world. the Rough Riders are drafted from the "ash waste nomads" and outlaw bikers (as horses don't survive long in the wastelands - they tend to get eaten by mutie raiders).
Besides, my models tend to be shared amongst several games (better value for money that way) - so I can use my bikers in Necromunda as well (and as I usually run a cyberpunk rpg with minis, they stand in for Nomads or outlaw bikers just as easily).

[Kahoolin]

I just can't take rough riders on bikes seriously, sorry. I just get this picture in my head of the guardsman hilariously flying backwards off his bike at the moment his lance impacts. Maybe bike RRs as dragoons or scouts, but the new codex made ALL RRs lancers, something I don't like. I like the idea of mounted riflemen using their horses to quickly move around the battlefield. Sucks that you have to have the lances.

I really like the idea of rough riders in general actually. The guard use pretty much every kind of human military technology, so why not horses? They worked in certain situations in the past (and even today, e.g. police crowd control as Eldargal mentioned), so why not in similar situations in the future? I see no reason such regiments would not exist.

I don't care if someone wants to use bikes as lancers, I mean it's a pretty obvious counts-as. I just think it seems silly.