flamers what can they wound

[Forlornhope15]

can flamers wound stuff they don't touch or are out of range of?

IE if you have a unit with 4 flamers, who all put the tear drop templates on the same enemy model but the defender has more models in the same unit that are not touched by the template. Does he take 4 hits on the unit or 4 hits on the model. Also who takes the wounds, the model who gets hit by template or the model that is closest (assuming they arent the same)

furthermore does the new range qualification in the FAQ change this?

[Nabterayl]

can flamers wound stuff they don't touch or are out of range of?
Yes. Page 16, as clarified by the recent FAQ, requires that a model be out of all models in the attacking unit before it is ineligible to die due to being "out of range."


IE if you have a unit with 4 flamers, who all put the tear drop templates on the same enemy model but the defender has more models in the same unit that are not touched by the template. Does he take 4 hits on the unit or 4 hits on the model. Also who takes the wounds, the model who gets hit by template or the model that is closest (assuming they arent the same)
Flamers generate hits on units, not models, and the flamer wounds are allocated to the closest model just like any other weapon.

[DarkLink]

You get one wound per model under the template, but it is possible via, say, Look Out Sir that the wounds can go on models not actually under the template.

However, the new FAQ specifies that you can't hurt models out of the range of your unit's shooting, so you should check that ruling as well.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, but all it says is that wounds cannot be allocated to models that were not in range of any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made.

[Forlornhope15]

yea templates actually have no range, it says on page 52 of the BRB that their range is template...so you can't be out of range of it.

ergo the new FAQ rule doesn't really apply to it, only normal shooting attacks like assualt 2, heavy 4, rapid fire, salvo

anything that uses a flamer template, or one of the blast templates can ignore secondary range limitations...blast templates can easily bounce outside their max range even if they are targeted within it. why couldn't flamers set someone else on fire

[vharing]

In real life terms it would be like someone in the front getting lit on fire and running through the unit and lighting his buddies on fire by accident.

[Nabterayl]

I don't honestly understand what the new FAQ was about. Was there some argument whereby you could allocate a wound to a model that was out of range of every single model in the firing unit?

[DarkLink]

A lot of people misread those rules. While it was clear you couldn't allocate to something out of LOS, it wasn't nearly as explicit that you couldn't allocate to something out of range.

[Caitsidhe]

yea templates actually have no range, it says on page 52 of the BRB that their range is template...so you can't be out of range of it.

ergo the new FAQ rule doesn't really apply to it, only normal shooting attacks like assualt 2, heavy 4, rapid fire, salvo

anything that uses a flamer template, or one of the blast templates can ignore secondary range limitations...blast templates can easily bounce outside their max range even if they are targeted within it. why couldn't flamers set someone else on fire

This is wishful thinking. Are you a Daemon player perhaps? The new ruling applies equally to templates. This means that no models outside the range (i.e. cannot be touched by any of your templates) cannot die to the shooting attack. The rule is (in part) a nerf to the Daemon Flamers who were able to drop on the table in a tight ball and wipe out a giant blob of troops, most of whom their templates could not touch. That no longer works. There are all sorts of implications for the game. To try to rules lawyer in an exemption for the templates to it is not going to fly.

[Mr Mystery]

It's dead easy folks.

16 Orks in range of 4 flamers. The templates from these each hit 4 Orks, resulting in 16 rolls to wound.

Needing 4s to wound, and with the Orks getting no save, 8 wounds are caused. However, only 4 Orks are eligible targets, so only 4 are removed as casualties.

And this is why I love my Particle Tomb Blades. Soooooo many wounds :p

[Wolfshade]

You forgot the mandatory KFF save but otherwise yeah ;)

No, it's a cover save.

Ssh Ignore me.


Nothing to see move along

[Mr Mystery]

Should point in my example it's the same 4 Orks being hit by the flamers.

No it's not their lucky day.

[Eberk]

Why are always the Orks victims in examples. I'd rather see 5 Imperial Guardsmen burned to cinder ;)

[Houghten]

They need to be Orks for the second example, which is the assault phase, when they rush in and krump the unit wot shot at 'em.

[Nabterayl]

It's dead easy folks.

16 Orks in range of 4 flamers. The templates from these each hit 4 Orks, resulting in 16 rolls to wound.

Needing 4s to wound, and with the Orks getting no save, 8 wounds are caused. However, only 4 Orks are eligible targets, so only 4 are removed as casualties.

And this is why I love my Particle Tomb Blades. Soooooo many wounds :p
Assuming the four flamers are the only weapons being fired, I agree. Otherwise, I don't necessarily (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?28540-What-is-the-Actual-Range-Rule), depending on the range of the other weapons being fired.

[Tynskel]

In real life terms it would be like someone in the front getting lit on fire and running through the unit and lighting his buddies on fire by accident.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Daemonette666]

I always thought Flamers in real life were the nastiest weapons ever - providing you could get it into range without the firer getting shot and he and his nearby companions being turned into a fire ball from the now burning fuel tank on his back.

I know this is only a game, and not real life, but I thought Flamers would be able to hit all models its flames covered, even those hiding behind ruined walls as long as you could get the torrent of flame through the window to shoot at least one model you could see in the room. From the real life war footage and movies on fire fighters that I have seen I got the idea that the flames will be sucked into all the nooks and crannies as the oxygen sucks it into the buildings and rubble.

I thought GW would have had a rule for Template and Torrent weapons to cover that to make it so all models were hit regardless of whether they could be seen or not (as long as one model can be seen an is in range). Then again it would be fun to see them have a rule that if the model carrying the flamer weapon was shot, then there was a chance the flamer blew up hitting the flamer carrying model and nearby models. Flaming psychic powers and weapons that only manifest the flame attack for that round would be the exception to that fun rule though.

It is a game though and GW has to make rules that fit in with all weapons, so something like a template weapons can not go too far against their other basic rules. Otherwise they would end up confusing themselves and we lowly gamers even more.

[walrusman999]

Ignore this, I dun screwed up

[Forlornhope15]

so what if models are within 8" but not touched by a flamer template? can they still die? assuming flamers are the only weapon being shot?

[Nabterayl]

I believe so; indeed, they may have to. Placing the template so that it covers the most enemy models but doesn't touch any friendly models could theoretically exclude the nearest model. But I think we would be mistaken in taking the fact that the flamer's range is "template" to mean that literally only those under the template are "in range." Template placement rules pertain to how many hits are scored (note that the template placement restrictions are preceded by "instead of rolling To Hit"); the "range" of the flamer is the radius described by the template without regard to placement rules.

[Forlornhope15]

if you invoke a 8" bubble rule that causes significant craziness with squads like flamers of tzeentch and also sponson mounted weapons on things like land raiders since they only get a half circle. However I guess you could measure out an 8" radius for every flamer weapon and write down which models are in range and which are not.

[Nabterayl]

The template placement rules still apply in terms of how you determine the number of hits, and the vehicle line of sight rules still apply in terms of how you can tell what the gun can even see. But if it happens that a flamer can legally see model A, and legally hit model A, but model B is the closest model in the target unit, B still takes the hit before A. The closest model still takes the hit first, even if the template happened not to be placed over him when fired (assuming, again, that there are no LOS issues).

[Caitsidhe]

The range of a flamer template is the template itself. That means you can only wound those under it, not every possible model you could have covered.

[DarkLink]

No, range only means that you can only kill models within an ~8" radius of the shooter. It does not necessarily have to be the models that are actually covered.

[Demonus]

But with this new ruling, if one of those flamers used its other attack ability (with longer range) you COULD kill more than 4 orks correct? at least that is how I saw it explained on another site.

[Wildcard]

Yeah, i am wondering what could be a good example:

Imperial Guard platoon, with 50man blob including 5x flamers and lascannon in addition to their lasguns. Now we have 8" flamer template, 24" lasguns and 48" lascannon.
if lasguns shoot in addition to flamers: wounds can be inflicted up to 24" away from the shooters (that are in line of sight to atleast one model of the unit firing)
And if lascannon fires aswell, then its 48"..

Or company command squad with 4x flamers and officer with bolt / plasma pistol gets wounds allocated up to 12" away instead of only 8"

[Caitsidhe]

No, range only means that you can only kill models within an ~8" radius of the shooter. It does not necessarily have to be the models that are actually covered.

I disagree. Nowhere does it say flamers (or weapons that use that template) have an 8" range. We know, because we measure, that is how long the flamer template is but that is irrelevant. The range of a flamer is the flamer template. Until they clarify it otherwise you do not get to use the 8" instead.

[Forlornhope15]

I disagree. Nowhere does it say flamers (or weapons that use that template) have an 8" range. We know, because we measure, that is how long the flamer template is but that is irrelevant. The range of a flamer is the flamer template. Until they clarify it otherwise you do not get to use the 8" instead.

I agree on page 50 under range it says the range of a weapon given as template is the tear drop shaped template as shown on pg 52 , not a 8" bubble

[Nabterayl]

But with this new ruling, if one of those flamers used its other attack ability (with longer range) you COULD kill more than 4 orks correct? at least that is how I saw it explained on another site.
You can see it on this site (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?28540-What-is-the-Actual-Range-Rule), too! The range of all weapons, for purposes of wounding, is the range of the longest-ranged weapon in the squad that gets to shoot. However, the range of all weapons for firing is the range of the weapon itself. You aren't personally in range, you can't shoot at all. Assuming you got to shoot, you can kill anybody that's in range of anybody else in your squad. That isn't, in my opinion, a new ruling, but either way, that's the rule.

[Houghten]

I disagree. Nowhere does it say flamers (or weapons that use that template) have an 8" range. We know, because we measure, that is how long the flamer template is but that is irrelevant. The range of a flamer is the flamer template. Until they clarify it otherwise you do not get to use the 8" instead.
So take the template and point it around as if it were a tape measure. Same difference.

"Range" does not have a width.

[Nabterayl]

I disagree. Nowhere does it say flamers (or weapons that use that template) have an 8" range. We know, because we measure, that is how long the flamer template is but that is irrelevant. The range of a flamer is the flamer template. Until they clarify it otherwise you do not get to use the 8" instead.
Here's why I don't buy that. Flamers are the second-shortest range weapon in the game, so 99% of the time in mixed-weapon units their range, for killing purposes, will be measured by other weapons.

In an all-flamer (or all-template, anyway) unit, though, things are very different. We must place the template so that it covers the most models possible in the target unit. In an all-template shooting attack, this will tend to be the same clump of models. So suppose we have four sisters dominion* firing four flamers at 20 cultists. But for the "cover the most models possible" rule, all four flamer templates could cover any of the 20 cultists without touching a friendly model. However, because of the "cover the most models possible" rule, all four flamer templates must be placed such that they cover the same six cultists.

You would have it that, under these circumstances, only six guys can die because only six guys are "in range?"

* I refuse to bow to your insufficiently cool plural conventions, GW!!!!

[Caitsidhe]

I don't take issue with your points, and I think they need to CLEAR it up. Right now the range of a flamer is the flamer template, i.e. where you put it. The way the poorly done Faq reads has an unintended consequence. It is my personal opinion that they INTENDED to say that weapons cannot injure people they cannot reach. I don't think they intended the flame template to be limited the way I am stating the syntax says, nor do I think they intended for a single lascannon to allow bolters to kill people out of range. Hopefully they will fix the stupidity in short order.

[Tynskel]

for some reason, I don't believe the FAQ made it harder to understand what is going on with wounds...

[Eric French]

This is wishful thinking. Are you a Daemon player perhaps? The new ruling applies equally to templates. This means that no models outside the range (i.e. cannot be touched by any of your templates) cannot die to the shooting attack. The rule is (in part) a nerf to the Daemon Flamers who were able to drop on the table in a tight ball and wipe out a giant blob of troops, most of whom their templates could not touch. That no longer works. There are all sorts of implications for the game. To try to rules lawyer in an exemption for the templates to it is not going to fly.

The FAQ answered a simple question about making a shooting attack against a unit and the wounds from the wound pool being allocated to any models outside the range of the weapon when "TO HIT" rolls were made. Clearly there are never any "TO HIT" rolls made for templates so the FAQ was clearly only concerning ranged weaponry.

[pnkfld7892]

I know I'm a little late on this thread, but don't template and blast marker weapons fire sequentially? I.E. if you have have a with 5 template weapons in it, you would fire them one at a time, each time covering the most models in the targeted unit.

[Wolfshade]

No, they all fire simultaneously. Multiple barrage weapons fire almost sequentially, the first shot resolved as normal then the rest scatter from where the first one fell.

[pnkfld7892]

Ok I see how it works, you place the templates one at a time, recording hits, then roll all the dice from the firing unit at once, at least that's how pages 52 and 53 make it seem how it works.

[Wolfshade]

Yup that's it. So often you might wnat ot place the tempatle in the same place, like when firing from vehicles (the passengers that is)

[Eric French]

Yup that's it. So often you might wnat ot place the tempatle in the same place, like when firing from vehicles (the passengers that is)

You need to clarify "same place" because it also clearly states that you must cover as many models as possible with each shot. Also as with the Flamers of Tzeentch in particular since the rest of a clump fresh in from Deepstrike can simply choose to shoot warpfire at 18"-4-4-assault 3 the point is moot about weakening them with this FAQ.

[Wolfshade]

Imagine if you have a squad of 5 flamers that are all 2" apart, the furthest two are 8" apart and so quite clearly will have their flame templates in different locations, as the tip of the template must be touching the shooting model. This means that each flamer might be hitting a different number of models as there "maximum" is different for each model.

If instead we were considering an imperial guard special weapon squad all armed with flamers (or as many as you can) firing from the firepoint in the chimera. Since in this case each flame template will be resolved from the same firing point (as per the rules for firing from vehicles) they will each be placed to cover the maximum number of models (as per BRB) and so will often be resolved with the template in the same location for each shooter using the firing point.

[Dave Mcturk]

what about overwatch ? flamers in middle of overwatching unit... would be prohibited from firing in normal shooting, but getting lucky inflict 9 hits [three 6 on D6 = 9 hits] and wipe out incoming banshees with no cover save allowed ... broken rule ? maybe cover saves should be allowed from flamers on overwatch ? obviously no charging models were in range of flamers at start of charge move...

[Dave Mcturk]

overwatch is a great idea, completely ballsed up.... so fifty IG or thirty cultists or even 30 Orkz are as good at overwatch as an eldar warlock who wait for it.... actually cant use his DZ power but has to fire a shuriken pistol !
so as not be seen completely negative... why not permit the nearest models to fire overwatch ... up to the maximum of a units highest initiative value.... ie 2 necron !!! ... 2 or 3 orcs or IG
4 5 or 6 of high initiative troops [edlar/ DE / marines] or even a multiplier [ie up to 2 times]