Standard of Devastation-Application of Rules

[DCompanyChris]

Premise: Dark Angel Codex....does the Standard of Devastation grant the salvo rule to storm bolters?

Practical questions:
If I take it in my Deathwing list, does it grant the Salvo rule to the storm bolters carried by the terminators?

If so, does a 2/4 Salvo mean a storm bolter shoots once- (2 shots) twice (for 4 shots) or 4 times (8 shots)?

And if so, would this Salvo stack for teleporting squads under the vengeful strike rule?

Application on tabletop:

Belial and Command Squad including the standard of Devestation Teleport to spot on board-Turn 1.

Then in Turn 2-Multiple squads use Belial's teleporthomer to land without scatter within six inches of banner, then open fire. How many shots (actual shooting dice) does each terminator get? Would those shots have the salvo rule and would they also be twin-linked?

[Sly]

Even if Storm Bolters gain benefit from the Standard, it would mean that they are a 2/4 Salvo, not 2x 2/4 Salvo.

But they won't. The Standard works for Boltguns (normal and twin-linked), not other weapons firing bolter ammunition. Storm Bolters are not two Bolters, they are a different weapon. Upgrades that affect bolter weapons would affect Storm Bolters, but upgrades that affect Boltguns (and their other name that has sometimes been used in official rules, Bolters as opposed to "bolter weapons") only, would not affect Storm Bolters.

[Heatray]

There are two sides to this that I've seen. On one hand, you have the "Special Issue Ammo" rule where it explicitly states it doesn't apply to Storm Bolters. On the other hand, the rules entry for the Dakka Pole state that it applies to all "boltguns." In the BRB, there is an entry in the Weapons section titled "Boltguns," under which it lists the weapons that fire bolts (p.56). Under that section, however, is an entry titled "Boltgun." It's all one big mind-screw.

RAW, the argument could be made that it applies to all weapons under the "Boltguns" entry, but an equally strong argument could be made the other way around, since a Boltgun is listed along with a Storm Bolter in the Codex armory; this would also mean that the Dakka Pole doesn't apply to Combi-Weapons either, since they are also listed on their own. We'll have to wait for an FAQ for a definitive answer, obviously, but it would be awesome for Salvo 2/4 Storm Bolters.

[Wildcard]

Stormbolters are one of the oldest relics that truly lack in power. Them being salvo 2/4 in the first place would be good place to start with..

[ElectricPaladin]

The section of the BRB where the guns are described and placed into categories is purely for color. The dakka pole (nice nickname, btw) refers to boltguns. If it refers to boltguns, it refers to boltguns.

Contrast the reference to "boltguns" with the Avatar's immunity to "all flame and melta weapons." As the FAQ clarifies, this refers to guns like the hand flamer and infernus pistol - guns that came into being after the Avatar's rule was written - as they are merely flame and melta weapons by another name. The same is true for Tau fusion blasters (which have the melta rule, even though the word "melta" is not found in their name).

If GW wanted to be broad, they probably would have written "all bolt weapons" or "all boltgun weapons" rather than "boltguns."

That said, making storm bolters Salvo 2/4 isn't exactly broken, so I wouldn't mind if the FAQ clarifies it so the rule applies.

[DarkLink]

WTF? This is not a complicated rule. Boltguns become Salvo 2/4. Storm Bolters are not Boltguns in the rules. Salvo replaces the normal Rapid Fire of boltguns. You don't get one Salvo 2/4 per regular shot you'd get.

Look at the wargear. Terminators have Storm Bolters, not Boltguns. Tactical Marines have Boltguns. Anyone should be able to easily deduce that Boltguns refers to Boltguns, and that Tactical Marines but not Terminators have Boltguns.



Practical questions:
If I take it in my Deathwing list, does it grant the Salvo rule to the storm bolters carried by the terminators?

No. Storm Bolters are not Boltguns.



If so, does a 2/4 Salvo mean a storm bolter shoots once- (2 shots) twice (for 4 shots) or 4 times (8 shots)?

No. 2/4 Salvo replaces the Assault 2 rule completely. Why would you thing you get Salvo 4/8 when it says Salvo 2/4?



And if so, would this Salvo stack for teleporting squads under the vengeful strike rule?

Vengeful strike is just rerolls to hit, right? It doesn't matter how many shots you have, if you reroll to hit, you reroll to hit.

[Heatray]

I played a few 2000pt games yesterday with the dakkapole in my list. I ran a DW command squad with a Libby and the dakkapole, a unit of 7 DW knights with Belial, and 4 units of 5 DW termies with a total of two plasma cannons and two asscans. The dakkapole combined with the outstanding deep strike capabilities of a Belial list makes for excellent alpha strikes, but you are wide open to almost equal retaliation.

I started every game off by deep striking my entire army in a small cluster around Belial (so as not to scatter) and unloaded my Salvo 2/4 storm bolters on turn 1. Combined with the rerolls to hit when they deep strike, the storm bolter torrent accounted for a significant amount of points from my friend's list. However, right after I was done shooting, he fired back and took out a good third of my army with plasma fire and focused bolters, so it pretty much turned into a zero-sum situation.

My point is, the dakkapole applying to storm bolters isn't beyond the realm of possibility; it was a good boost to the damage I was putting out, but not obscenely so. Plus, if something happens to the standard bearer, the bonus is lost (something that happened in all but one game). We wont know for sure until a proper FAQ comes out and clairifies this, but I'd definitely put my money on it working with storm bolters.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, well, doesn't matter, because the rule states boltguns...
and considering there is a listing in the Dark Angels codex called 'Boltgun', I cannot think of a clearer rule than this.

[JMichael]

Yeah, well, doesn't matter, because the rule states boltguns...
and considering there is a listing in the Dark Angels codex called 'Boltgun', I cannot think of a clearer rule than this.

+1 I completely agree with this.

[DarkLink]

Exactly. Boltguns are a specific piece of wargear. Storm Bolters are a different specific piece of wargear. Storm Bolters are not Boltguns. Ergo, Storm Bolters do not benefit from the Standard of Destruction.

If you buff Storm Bolters, you are cheating.



Honestly, I think the SoD is a little overrated. It's very expensive, and because Salvo on the move is basically a worse rapid fire you need to sit still for normal Marines, which limits your options a lot. If you play Ravenwing, you can benefit, and you can buff say Land Raider Crusaders (pretty sure that Hurricane Bolters are specifically "3 TL Boltguns" and thus benefit, but I could be wrong), but for that many points, on a model that can be sniped with Precision Shots and the like? Certainly not the end all of anti-infantry firepower.

[Tynskel]

I am not sure this limits your marines...

24" of 4 shots per marine is nuts.

[Archon Charybdis]

Ravenwing. Whole bunch of fast, Relentless, Salvo 4 twin-linked bolters? Sounds pretty nasty to me. The only weak link is the RW command squad is only 3 models, so not horribly hard to kill.

[Houghten]

Honestly, I think the SoD is a little overrated. It's very expensive, and because Salvo on the move is basically a worse rapid fire you need to sit still for normal Marines, which limits your options a lot. If you play Ravenwing, you can benefit, and you can buff say Land Raider Crusaders (pretty sure that Hurricane Bolters are specifically "3 TL Boltguns" and thus benefit, but I could be wrong), but for that many points, on a model that can be sniped with Precision Shots and the like? Certainly not the end all of anti-infantry firepower.
So put it on a Deathwing or Greenwing Command Squad, and put it inside the Crusader! Flank it with a bunch of bikes, and if you have any Dark Talons, contrive to have them fly overhead occasionally.

DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

[Learn2Eel]

I think the Standard of Devastation is pretty good, but yes, it is very expensive and should only be used in specific army lists.

[DarkLink]

I am not sure this limits your marines...

24" of 4 shots per marine is nuts.

But only if you sit still, that's the catch. It gives your opponent a lot of opportunity to kill the banner, or just to out-maneuver you.


So put it on a Deathwing or Greenwing Command Squad, and put it inside the Crusader! Flank it with a bunch of bikes, and if you have any Dark Talons, contrive to have them fly overhead occasionally.

DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

Exactly, but that dictates the entirety of your list at that point so if you want to take other stuff you're paying a lot of points for something with not nearly as much benefit.

[Houghten]

I'm fine with that.

[Tynskel]

But only if you sit still, that's the catch. It gives your opponent a lot of opportunity to kill the banner, or just to out-maneuver you.



Exactly, but that dictates the entirety of your list at that point so if you want to take other stuff you're paying a lot of points for something with not nearly as much benefit.

Fortress of Redemption. Set it up as close to the center of the board as possible.
Take a command squad with the banner; put in the tower bunker.
Surround the bunker with marines that are within 6" of the tower bunker.

That'll cover a huge area of the board.

[walrusman999]

Fortress of Redemption. Set it up as close to the center of the board as possible.
Take a command squad with the banner; put in the tower bunker.
Surround the bunker with marines that are within 6" of the tower bunker.

That'll cover a huge area of the board.

I call shenanigans on this loophole :P

But yeah that would be a nasty piece of DAKKA fire

[Azrell]

Do people not realize you can put that banner on a vet squad? 10 power armor marines vs 5 seems like a good place to hide it. plus you can load them up with comb weapons so they can pick the correct targets.

[Xenith]

My point is, the dakkapole applying to storm bolters isn't beyond the realm of possibility

Yes. Yes, it is.

[HeavyMetalPsycho]

Well whether storm bolters get a FAQ so that they work with BoS (which I don't think they will, although I would gladly accept it) terminators, which is generally what you see storm bolters on, have never really been a good fire for effect solution.

But a full ravenwing list with BoS is pretty funny. And with how turbo boost works now you don't have to move in a straight line or all 12 inches so you can keep the ccs black knight close to everyone and if you get them within 6 inches of a Darkshroud they get a 2+ cover with skilled rider and stealth, then with Sammel and an apothecary in there that is a very hard squad to kill and you get plenty of dakka from all the bike squads around you. The squad gets a bit pricey but it will survive at least for a good portion of the game.

[wellweee]

Do people not realize you can put that banner on a vet squad? 10 power armor marines vs 5 seems like a good place to hide it. plus you can load them up with comb weapons so they can pick the correct targets.

I think you need to re-read the entry, vet squads can't take it I'm afraid. Only Command squads can.

[Azrell]

Aw yes you are correct ser. i did indeed get that mixed up in the FAQ as both vets and command squad were edited.