Codex: Grey Knights

[DarkLink]

Just like the title says.

I posted basic rules for a revised Grey Knight codex (I don't care much for inquisitors, so didn't write any rules for them) on my local groups forums here:
http://www.figurepainters.com/slogaming/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=535&sid=176408c0d20ec1e62c40b1caf41094dd

[clkeagle]

Just from an initial skim of your rules, it looks like you have some overpowered/undercosted units. Example: your dreadnought is WS 5 but only 110 points. WS 5 is part of the Venerable points cost in other codices, and other armies have to pay far more for it. Base cost for a WS5/BS4 dread should be closer to 140-150, I'd think.

You say you don't want GK abilities to be focused only against daemon armies, but this flies in the face of their entire fluff as part of the Ordo Malleus. Even if you don't want Inquisitors involved, GK are still an Inquisitorial, daemon-hunting force. While they shouldn't be crippled against any other armies (they are, after all, the best of the best among Space Marines), they should have some sort of specialized abilities against daemonic forces. You'll have to find a balance somewhere.

And keep in mind, "daemon" can include more opponents than just Codex: Chaos Daemons. Any Necron army with C'Tan, any Eldar army with an Avatar, and any Chaos Space Marine army with a daemon prince, possessed space marines, Defilers, Obliterators, or summoned daemons should be considered "daemonic" opponents.

[DarkLink]

You really think that giving a Dreadnought WS 5 should cost 35-45pts? Other codecies Ven. Dreads don't just get WS 5. They get WS 5, BS 5 and the ability to force the opponent to reroll the dices. That all costs 60pts (based on the difference in price between a regular Dreadnought and a Venerable Dreadnought). Now that I think about it, I think I'll make the GK Dread 115 (10pts over a normal Dread). I'd say that the Ven. upgrade would be about 10pts for BS5, 10pts for WS5 and 40pts for the damage reroll.

I'll also point out that GK Dreadnoughts are currently WS5. A GK Dread with an assault cannon is 120pts, while a normal Dread with an assault cannon is 115pts. The only difference there is the WS 5.

I think I made the Ven. Dread upgrade too cheap, though. I'll have to fix that.

What were some of the other points costs you felt were off? Some of the units (teleport assault squad) and some of the abilities I didn't really know how to price, so I just kinda took a shot in the dark.






Something I'll also point out, that I probably should have included in the explanations section, is that Grey Knights suffer from one, big, problem. They're extremely expensive. And that is as they currently are. There are no cheap units in the codex. So even if you can take a Grand Master that can hit at I10 on the charge with 5 WS6 S6 attacks with rerolls on both, and those attacks ignore Invulnerable saves, that GM is over 300pts. Now, that's actually probably a little cheap, but the point is, that is 300pts you aren't spending on bodies. If you go all out with unit like that, you won't have enough bodies, and the enemy will just take you apart because of it.

I don't currently take a GM in anything less than 1500pts, and I don't give him wargear if I do. That's a 145pt model. If you look in a SM army at 1500pts, 2 HQ's isn't unheard of. 300pts on HQ's in a 1500pt list in most armies isn't a big deal. But Grey Knights CANNOT afford a single 300pt model in a 1500pt game (unless it is as tough as a Land Raider, but Land Raiders are vital because of their transport ability).

So some of the options that seem cheap to you seem really, really expensive to me. I'd never take many of them. I have enough experience with the army to know that if I waste points on suplerfluous upgrades, I'll lose. So in a lot of cases, I'm not sure what to price things at, and most other people probably don't know either, because every point you spend on extra upgrades is a point you don't spend on bodies, and your chances of winning decrease exponentially the fewer bodies you have.








As for the Daemon-specific stuff, I've openly stated my opinion in the list explanation sections. If I make the rules Daemon-specific, the rules won't really get any better than they are now. That doesn't need to happen. It's simple:
Grey Knights have X rule. The reason they have this rule, fluffwise, is that the rule is effective against Daemons. But for game-balance purposes, the rule works against everybody, which is justified in the fluff by saying "it is particularly good against Daemons, but works against other foes of the Emperor as well."

As a Grey Knight player, I want good fluff AND good rules. There doesn't have to be a contradiction between the two.

[DarkLink]

And keep in mind, "daemon" can include more opponents than just Codex: Chaos Daemons. Any Necron army with C'Tan, any Eldar army with an Avatar, and any Chaos Space Marine army with a daemon prince, possessed space marines, Defilers, Obliterators, or summoned daemons should be considered "daemonic" opponents.

I included chaos when I talk about this, because some of the current wargear is chaos specific, and some daemon specific.

The C'Tan isn't a daemon (in fact, the warp in antithetical to the C'Tans very existance). The Avatar is, but that is a single unit from a single codex. A I recall, there are 16 armies in the game (Templar, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Daemonhunter, Witchhunters, IG, Chaos Marines, Daemons, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons). I might have missed one. Anyways, I suppose we can eliminate Daemonhunters from the list, as each army would have the same weaknesses. So we have 15 armies.

Out of 15 armies, the Grey Knight Daemon-specific rules only affect 2. And one unit from one other (the Avatar). Daemon-specific rules are looking real useful now, arent they:rolleyes:.

The point is, Daemon specific rules do one of two things. They either make Grey Knights good (but balanced) against those 2 armies, and really bad against the other 13 armies (due to the excess of points spend on Daemon specific rules). Or, the Grey Knights are balanced against the other 13 armies, and extremely OP against the last 2 (chaos marines and daemons).

As it currently stands, Grey Knights are weak against every single army, because they have overly expensive rules (primarily as a result of being Daemon specific). If the Grey Knights are ever going to become a balanced army, this MUST change.






Forgive me for ranting about this a lot, but I have to play with these rules every game, so I feel very strongly about them. I love the style of the Grey Knights, how their units can move and shoot and assault. I hate how weak the rules are, though.

[Lord Anubis]

I don't mean this to sound snide. Seriously, I don't. I just can't think of any other way to put this...

Why are you playing Grey Knights? :confused:

Across dozens of threads, you keep bashing them. You keep insisting they have to be completely different. You keep pushing for rules that go against every bit of fluff that's been put out for the past decade.

If you hate the existing rules, hate the fluff, hate the way they play in the game, why are you using them? It's kind of like someone insisting they want to play Tyranids, then complaining non-stop because the rules don't let them take tanks.

You've got the models already? Fine. So just use them as Iron Knights or make up your own chapter or something. Can't imagine anyone would be so hard-assed as to refuse to play against you if you're using Space Marines as... well, plain old Space Marines. Why this obsession with turning Grey Knights into something that goes against everything they're supposed to be?

Again, I don't mean for this to be snide. It's just such a baffling approach to me I honestly can't figure it out.

:(

[DarkLink]

Heh, I didn't mean to sound snide either:o, I was just kinda surprised about the WS 5 Dreadnought thing, as it's something we already have.

I also like to complain a lot about the Daemonhunters powerlevel.

I actually love the fluff behind the Grey Knights. Fluffwise, they're my favorite army in the game. However, I primarily play the game for the game itself, so I don't like fluff getting in the way of good rules. I don't think there has to be a contradiction between the fluff we currently have (which doesn't really have to change much, though I'd like to see it expanded and get a wider variety of unique Grey Knight units), and the rules. We don't have to sacrifice good rules by making everything only work against Daemons and Chaos models. I don't see why we can't balance our rules without violating our fluff, by allowing the rules to work against everyone.

I also love the general layout of the existing Grey Knight units. I love being able to always move, to be able to shoot so well, and to be solid in assault. We're not the best at any one thing, but we're fairly good at everything. It matches my playstyle. I've played assault only armies before (Khorne berzerkers) and then shooty armies (Tau), and while I did well with both, I've found the mix of mobility, shootiness and assaultyness that Grey Knights offer are so much more fun to play with than either of my previous armies.

The problem with the rules isn't with the units themselves. First off, power armor Grey Knights are generally overpriced. Basic Grey Knights pay a lot of points for their special rules, which are pretty much useless. Update the Shrouding, True Grit and the other rules, and power armor Grey Knights will be comparable to, say, Plague Marines or Khorne Berzerkers in terms of power and usefulness. A lot of their weapons upgrades are overpriced as well (mainly psycannons).

Secondly, a lot of their rules could use to be brought in line with 5th edition.

Thirdly, our codex suffers from a lack of variety. Nowadays, we have a limited number of option. For the last year, I've taken 3 Land Raiders in every single 1500pt game I've played. While the list does alright, it does have significant weaknesses, and you get tired of playing the exact same list over and over after a while, especially when there are some very common opposing lists and units that you simply can't counter effectively, outside of pure luck. Recently, I've put together a second list with allied sisters of battle, which I've started to play with. (2 LR, 2 GK squads, a Grand Master and 2 allied sisters squads in rhinos). It's a lot of fun to play, and possibly a little more competitive.

However, I've played a few test games with the codex I posted. While I know a lot of the points need refinement (which is part of why I posted it), I had an absolute blast with the list, because I had so many more viable options. I didn't have to take 3 Land Raiders. I could take 1. I could deepstrike all over the place, I had more bodies, more options, more viable units. It was like playing with one hand tied behind my back ever since 5th ed came out, then suddenly I could use both hands again.

I guess you could say I got a taste of what the Grey Knights have the potential to be (that is, a powerful, highly competitive army), and it's gotten to my head:D.



Edit:
Oh, and when 5th came out, I tried out a SM army. Doesn't match my playstyle well. I can't for the life of me figure out how to do well with tactical marines. Grey Knights play very, very differently from normal Space Marines.
If it helps, think of it this way. Imagine playing Space Marines, but you could only take Terminators, a Captain, tactical marines with no rhinos, and Land Raiders. I'd imagine it would still be fun, but the list would be much less competitive. Not because it consisted of bad units, but because it lacked options and variety. You'd only have a handful of viable lists. As it stands, that's where Grey Knights are stuck. I love the way they play, and I can see their potential, but I'm kinda stuck in a tough position.

Try going on Bolter and Chainsword, and browse the Inquisition section. You'll find that most Grey Knight players tend to share my general attitude, that Grey Knights are awesome, but their rules fail to live up to their potential. We're all kinda a little bitter for it:o.

[Bluesfart]

I think Daemonhunters are an awesome choice for doing a homebrew update for. They definitely could use it.

Like you said; they have a complete lack of variety. That to me seems like even more reason to include inquisitors and assassins. They might not be your thing, but you could put a cool spin on them and change them into something you'd like more. I was also hoping to see creative fast attack choice beyond the existing power armored gray knights who choose to teleport.

If you want more generic abilities that aren't daemon-specific bu will give you an advantage over daemons, I would think about powers that interfere with deep-striking. This seems like more reason again to think about inquisitors and similar non-power armored units.

Since it was already mentioned, your WS5 BS5 dread costs 110 while a WS4 BS4 dread costs 105 in the vanilla codex. I think it ought to cost more than 5 points to get that extra skill. A venerable dread costs 165, so I agree that 120-130 sounds more reasonable of a price. I also question the need to change shrouding to something after hits, wounds, and saves have been made.

What was the outcome of the play-testing you've done? Did your opponents think any unit over or under excelled?

[DarkLink]

I've done maybe half a dozen games with my small gaming group in my hometown (I'm in my college town now). Unfortunately, I'm the dominant player there (the other guys aren't very competitive players, and one of them plays Necrons), and win most of my games normally. My college group is much more competitive, and I don't win too often against them, but I haven't gotten to playtest with them (they don't do many houserule stuff).

We all agreed that The Shrouding is good, as is the ability to Deepstrike and updated True Grit. We also agreed Rites of exorcism granting offensive grenades is fair, as everyone is getting offensive grenades for free now. I threw in defensive grenades, but am still questioning that. Overall, we agreed the new special rules are pretty fair (the only thing I have reservations about is the defensive grenades).

The change to Shrouding is just to make it viable. It represents the enemy missing with their shooting and attacks. The reason why it is taken after wounds and armor saves are to minimize the amount of dice rolled. It's easier to take shrouding saves after all of that, rather than handle it before all those other dice are rolled. I've found while playing with it that it is much simpler, easier and more balanced than the current nightfight style shrouding. Grey Knights invariably find themselves in close range engagements with the enemy, where a nightfight save suddenly becomes useless. On the other hand, if you keep at the edge of nightfight range, suddenly the enemy can't touch your units. I think just simplifying it down to a type of save works better, especially after playing with it. Having a shrouding that actually does something is amazingly exciting for a Grey Knight player:D.

I haven't tested the Teleport assault troops at their current value (the were originally a little cheaper), and I only used them in one game which they had relatively little effect.

Basic Grey Knights and Terminators also seem fair, as they are basically the same, just with updated special rules and unit entries. The units themselves are pretty much unchanged. I might modify the costs of the psychic powers, though, I'm not sure.

Generally, I tried to keep points costs for the various psychic units contained within the cost of the psychic powers themselves.

I had originally given Terminators True Grit with no charge bonuses, but we agreed after a game that that was too good, so I went back to no True Grit for Terminators.

I'm also not sure how to price the Grand Master. The other two heroes are about right, but the Grand Master has so many bonuses and stuff that I'm not sure how to price him. I probably also need to revise the points for Legacies, but haven't gotten a chance to play with them yet.

Generally speaking:
1: Grey Knight Hero: GM price, psychic power and Legacies prices may need revision, but the rest seems pretty good.
2: Terminators are good, but psychic power costs (and effects) may need some revision
3: Dread is basically an update of the existing rules. I didn't give it WS 5, it already have it. GK Dreads have always been 5pts more than the same SM Dread. I think I'll bump it up to 115pts, as mentioned above. I also accidentally underpriced the Ven. Dread upgrade. As I mentioned above, I'd say the Ven. Dread upgrade (60pts in the SM codex) breaks down well as 10pts for +1 WS, 10pts for +1 BS, and 40pts for the damage reroll ability.
4. Basic Grey Knights are good, psychic powers may need revising.
5. Teleport Marines may need some revising, as it isn't easy to price Heroic Intervention (vanguard are the only unit who have it, and they're too expensive too be very good).
6. Purgation squads: Haven't played with them yet, but they definitely need something good to make players take them.
7. Land Raiders, I didn't even bother to post, as my version is really just a copy of the SM Land Raider.



I do have some other units that I made up. If you go on Bolter and Chainsword, they also have a houserule Inquisition project, though I don't think much more than a bunch of discussion has come of it. They did have some ideas for new units, though, which I took the basic concept of and made my own units. I'll need to go back over those before I post them, though.


Of the units I made up, I included:
1. Paladin Dreadnought (dread variant)
2. A unique transport for Grey Knights called the Aegis and Aegis Hammerfist (basically an up-armored rhino with the assault vehicle rule and bigger guns. The hammerfist is to the aegis what the razorback is to the rhino). BTW, if you can think of a better name than the Aegis APC, I'll take it.
3.Grey Knight Jetbike unit (Bolter and Chainsword's idea)
4. Landspeeders
5. Grand Master Special Character






As Grey Knights currently exist, Inquisitors and assassins don't add much (other than the cheesiness of mystics). Stormtroopers only give you cheap suicide units, and it's better to ally in sisters of battle.

In my updated rules, though, I found that I wasn't forced into a multiple land raider list as Grey knights currently are. Not taking Land Raiders frees up points to buy actual squads. So I could take multiple units and just foot slog them (deepstriking helps a lot, as does improved shrouding), and with teleport assault squads that actually do something, as well as drop pod dreadnoughts, I had more options in the list than just troop Grey Knights and Terminators. Add in the couple of extra units I made up, and the problem with variety vanishes. And that's just with pure Grey Knights. you could add in inquisitor stuff, too, but I dislike Inquisitor units so I haven't made any.

In my opinion, I don't feel Inquisitorial units really belong on the battlefield. Maybe Inquisitors accompanying the Knights, but the Grey Knights are the ordos malleus's military force, for when they don't have the firepower and manpower to handle the threat.

Besides, why would I want to play an Inquisitor when I could instead field more Space Marines with Jedi Powers:D.

[Dunadan]

This is really cool :) I'm glad I've been hanging on to my GK models.

[DarkLink]

This is really cool :) I'm glad I've been hanging on to my GK models.

Glad you like it.



I added an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit. It now has the same Special Operations rule IG stormtroopers have, and a variety of transport options, but doesn't get AP 3. 16pts per model for AP 3 isn't worth it. Instead, I made Hellguns Assault 2 24". Nice little boost, but not too powerful.


Edit: IST unit is on the second page of the thread, fyi.

[Miggidy Mack]

Reading through it, I think you're definitely coming in a little strong. Especially with shrouding.

Might I suggest just allowing them to use the new point totals/rules for everything in codex space marines, giving them razorbacks & drop pods and then MAYBE adjusting their points down some (about 20). Seems like you'd have a much simpler home brew system to balance as well.

[DarkLink]

I'll admit, I'm a little biased in that I'd like to have a powerful codex for once. And I actually feel that the basic Grey knights and their special rules that I posted work out pretty fairly compared to, say, Plague Marines. That's just me and a few of my friends, though.

However, Shrouding as it is is almost completely useless. I can't remember the last time my opponent has failed a Shrouding test. It's because Grey Knights do their fighting up close and personal, so there's never a chance to take advantage of the 31.5" range.

I could decrease the range of the Shrouding to something more like nightfight, but the shorter the average range gets, the exponentially more powerful it gets. Because of the way Grey Knights play (primarily short-ranged firefights) we either have a fair shrouding that ends up being worthless, or an OP shrouding like eldar Harlequin veil of tears. I found it much more simple to change the way the Shrouding works.

And Grey Knights really, really need some form of defense. Otherwise, they're just as easy to kill as normal Space Marines, but cost way, way more. When you have so few models, all the enemy needs is a power fist or two and you almost inevitably have a dead squad.

I also try to minimize changes to the units. I only added a few options (like deepstriking and squad psychic powers), changed up a few special rules and streamlined the unit enteries. And made the Grand Masters totally BAMF, but that was because I couldn't help myself:D.







One peculiarity about us Grey Knight players is that despite the fact that Grey Knights need a cheap transport option, we refuse to support the idea of our elite Grey Knights riding in a stinkin' rhino. Rhinos are for chumps and stormtroopers:D. You can browse the Inquisition section on Bolter and Chainsword and you'll probably get this vibe from there in their homebrew rules discussions.

One of the units that I did make up, but haven't posted yet, is a medium transport that would fill a similar gap as the Rhino. It had better armor and bigger guns, and was obviously more expensive, something in the range of a tooled up Devilfish (a bit over a hundred points, give or take).



I have actually thought about making a non-codex chapter army list similar to what you mention, though. Basically it's all Tactical Marines with Storm Bolters and good True Grit (so they count as having 2 CCW's), and I think Fearless and two special weapons in a squad, for 18-20pts per model. I think I actually did a unit entry for the basic Tactical squad (which filled both tactical and assault roles), but never really more than that.




Edit: I'll go through and update some of the prices, though. There are some errors (like the venerable dread upgrade cost) and some things that I definitely underpriced, like a lot of the psychic powers

I'll probably throw some more of the other units I've made in, too, though some need more work (I'm not sure how to do a Grey Knight Dreadnought Varient. It should be good at killing Monstrous creatures, though, which is tough to do).

[Miggidy Mack]

Forge World disagrees with you on whether or not GK's will ride in a Rhino ;)

At the end of the day they ARE a space marine chapter. They aren't going to refuse to ride in a Rhino. The rhino is a proud servant of the Imperium, just as a space marine is. I think GK's have more to worry about than whether a rhino is beneath them!

It's fine if other forums have that vibe. The people with actual control over the IP disagree with them. The only reason the current codex isn't more robust is GW's refusal to actually make FAQ's and Errata that matter. Forge World is doing it for them.

Frankly I consider Daemonhunters a Forge World army now.

[DarkLink]

Forge World disagrees with you on whether or not GK's will ride in a Rhino ;)

At the end of the day they ARE a space marine chapter. They aren't going to refuse to ride in a Rhino. The rhino is a proud servant of the Imperium, just as a space marine is. I think GK's have more to worry about than whether a rhino is beneath them!

It's fine if other forums have that vibe. The people with actual control over the IP disagree with them. The only reason the current codex isn't more robust is GW's refusal to actually make FAQ's and Errata that matter. Forge World is doing it for them.

Frankly I consider Daemonhunters a Forge World army now.

I've never seen a forgeworld Grey Knight Rhino unit entry. Last I checked (and I checked just now), the psycanon razorback was for Inquisitors and IST's only, NOT Grey Knights.

Anyways, you bring up a good point. I tried to make these rules by updating existing rules, rather than completely rewriting everything. I'll let GW do all that re-writing, I'll just update stuff. Unfortunately, about the only significant thing forgeworld has done is give GK's Land Raider Redeemers (which are awesome, btw), and give Inquisitors and IST's a few extra transport options.

[Dunadan]

Something else to consider: fluff-wise and stat-wise the psycannon was based on the 3rd ed assault cannon. Should the new version reflect that, being based points wise and stat wise on the 5th ed assault cannon (but still with the suspensors)?

[Atrotos]

*Applause* Good job, some really nice stuff here but I'm afraid you fell short of the mark. You gave in to the kneejerk reactions of your peers and you didn't go all the way - the result is that some of your rules are overburdened because you did your best to show that you've based them off of GW's current ones knowing that GW hates the Grey Knights almost as much as they hate the Dark Angels.

1. Drop True Grit and just give them 2 attacks period - this will let you circumvent issues that arise when they buy special weapons.

2. Your Shrouding is a good solution but fluff-wise I don't think you should have it save you from close combat attacks - that may be going too far balance wise as well. Maybe include a 5+ Invul against attacks in close combat as part of the same Special Rule.

3.Deep Strike SR is a nice touch but you should avoid rules that overturn other rules (i.e. no getting around Officers of the Fleet). It makes the game more convoluted. Instead try a Deathwing assault approach to it where you get half of your guys automatically. Or come up with something more unique - don't be afraid to tread new ground.

4.Give GKs the Teleport Homer for free. The Targeter was never meant for GKs I don't think. Either make it free or get rid of it. 1 pt upgrades are bad game design because there's no choice. Give them the option for a thunder hammer or two in the squad - this is the Ordo Malleus.

5. Your standard GK Dread should come with all the Grey Knight perks. +1 Attack over the regular Dread, The shrouding just like Bjorn has and... wait for it... the ability to teleport. Plus it should come with an area-of-effect buffer like the Land Speeder Storm has against Deep Strikers. With all this the Venerable Dread will be unnecessary. Please price accordingly.

6. Not sold on the Warp Spider rule for the Grey Knights simply because the Warp Spiders already have it. Rather give them the Gate of Infinity Psychic Power. Combined with Heroic Intervention this will make them terrifying.

7.Why don't all your heroes have WS 6? They're cooler than Space Marines remember? I would even hazard WS 7 for the GM but Calgar didn't get it so I'm not sure. Certainly it would make sense seeing as Daemon Princes are WS 7 and DPs are the GM's Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

8. Legacies are a great idea but you're ripping off the Space Wolves and I don't believe that each codex should stack benefits on top of the last one - greater creativity may be required here. Maybe make them an army wide option to reflect some dire "Mission". After all if the GKs are there **** has really hit the fan. Side note: USRs are off limits - no overturning Eternal Warrior, that's dangerous ground in terms of game balance.

9. Psychic powers. I think you failed here. Why? Because you followed GW's example and while that can smooth over transitions you've chosen the wrong codex to this with, the Inquisitions codicies are terrible. Give yourself more FREEDOM! The GK's are ALL psykers why is one guy doing all the work?! Read up on the IG Psyker Battle Squad. This is what GK psychic powers should be like - their strength should be based on the number of guys in the squad in accordance with the fluff. Their praying, being surrounded with Holy Light, their chants are taken up by more and more battle brothers etc. You read Dark Adeptus so you know what I'm talking about. Leave the personal psychic powers to the heroes.


Go ahead. Do it. Make them powerful. I'm always telling people to make up their own rules and to make them good. Why? Because you really can't make the game much more imbalanced than it already is without trying really hard. Check out my Stellan Hoplites posted on the board. You know what the most common complaint I get about them? Marbo. I call my character Vespor so people think I made him up.

If you don't make them as powerful as other 5th Ed codicies GW (eventually) will. The question is will you let them spoon-feed you or will take matters into your own hands?

Good luck, good gaming.

[DarkLink]

*Applause* Good job, some really nice stuff here but I'm afraid you fell short of the mark. You gave in to the kneejerk reactions of your peers and you didn't go all the way - the result is that some of your rules are overburdened because you did your best to show that you've based them off of GW's current ones knowing that GW hates the Grey Knights almost as much as they hate the Dark Angels.

All I'll say is that I'm fairly competitive with Grey Knights as it is, and if I got a huge boost, it'd be a slaughter fest. As it is, in the gaming group I playtested some of these rules with I won most of my games regardless of whether or not I played with normal rules or mine. So it is difficult for me to properly judge the power level of the codex.


1. Drop True Grit and just give them 2 attacks period - this will let you circumvent issues that arise when they buy special weapons.

Thats... a really, really good idea. One less special rule to remember and deal with, without really changing anything significant. I'll make a note to do that.


2. Your Shrouding is a good solution but fluff-wise I don't think you should have it save you from close combat attacks - that may be going too far balance wise as well. Maybe include a 5+ Invul against attacks in close combat as part of the same Special Rule.

I think I'll try that. Maybe I'll make the Aegis give a 5+ invulnerable, to represent the quality of the armor and the psychic protection it grants, and make Shrouding shooting only.


3.Deep Strike SR is a nice touch but you should avoid rules that overturn other rules (i.e. no getting around Officers of the Fleet). It makes the game more convoluted. Instead try a Deathwing assault approach to it where you get half of your guys automatically. Or come up with something more unique - don't be afraid to tread new ground.

Heh, I'd forgotten I'd added the no reserve modifiers. That was before GW FAQ'd that Advisors don't stack, too. I'll probably take that out.

I've though about a Deathwing approach, but don't want to fall into the trap that Drop Pods do; that is, there usually aren't many good targets turn one. Turn 3 is usually about the perfect time to bring down deepstrikers. I actually almost never deepstrike, and I'm not sure what exactly to do with this. I'll have to think about it.


4.Give GKs the Teleport Homer for free. The Targeter was never meant for GKs I don't think. Either make it free or get rid of it. 1 pt upgrades are bad game design because there's no choice. Give them the option for a thunder hammer or two in the squad - this is the Ordo Malleus.

I like the idea of the Thunder Hammer, though I'd never use it (I like str 6 power weapons too much, and with hammerhand on the Justicar, you don't really need a Thunder Hammer). I kinda agree about the Targeters, too, though.

Teleport homers I like as an upgrade, because if I included it in the squad it would cost points, but I almost never deepstrike, so I'd only want to take one or two. I don't really want to have to pay the points for one in each squad, every game.


5. Your standard GK Dread should come with all the Grey Knight perks. +1 Attack over the regular Dread, The shrouding just like Bjorn has and... wait for it... the ability to teleport. Plus it should come with an area-of-effect buffer like the Land Speeder Storm has against Deep Strikers. With all this the Venerable Dread will be unnecessary. Please price accordingly.

That's an interesting idea. I do have a variant Dread I'm thinking about (Paladin Dreadnought), so I might drop the venerable upgrade, and replace it with the unique variant.


6. Not sold on the Warp Spider rule for the Grey Knights simply because the Warp Spiders already have it. Rather give them the Gate of Infinity Psychic Power. Combined with Heroic Intervention this will make them terrifying.

Warp spider thing was just something to make them like Jump Troops, but more Grey Knight-y. I like your idea better, I'll do that.


7.Why don't all your heroes have WS 6? They're cooler than Space Marines remember? I would even hazard WS 7 for the GM but Calgar didn't get it so I'm not sure. Certainly it would make sense seeing as Daemon Princes are WS 7 and DPs are the GM's Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

I've been tempted to make the GM WS 7, but I've already stacked tons of upgrades on him, and don't want to make him more expensive. I also though I gave Battle Captains WS 6, but I might have mis-typed that. Brother Captains are basically terminator sargents, but a little better, so I kept them at WS 5. They need I 5 more than WS 6, but the whole point of the Brother Captain is to have a cheap HQ.


8. Legacies are a great idea but you're ripping off the Space Wolves and I don't believe that each codex should stack benefits on top of the last one - greater creativity may be required here. Maybe make them an army wide option to reflect some dire "Mission". After all if the GKs are there **** has really hit the fan. Side note: USRs are off limits - no overturning Eternal Warrior, that's dangerous ground in terms of game balance.

Yeah, I'm totally ripping off Space Wolves. I saw the saga thing and thought "that's perfect". I'll keep it for now, unless someone thinks up a unique system.

Destroy Daemon is probably going to go, I just included it for now because it's awesome (and GK's effectively have the "ignore eternal warrior" part as it is).


9. Psychic powers. I think you failed here. Why? Because you followed GW's example and while that can smooth over transitions you've chosen the wrong codex to this with, the Inquisitions codicies are terrible. Give yourself more FREEDOM! The GK's are ALL psykers why is one guy doing all the work?! Read up on the IG Psyker Battle Squad. This is what GK psychic powers should be like - their strength should be based on the number of guys in the squad in accordance with the fluff. Their praying, being surrounded with Holy Light, their chants are taken up by more and more battle brothers etc. You read Dark Adeptus so you know what I'm talking about. Leave the personal psychic powers to the heroes.

I like the idea of squad based powers. I only gave the Justicar's psychic powers to represent that the rest of the squad's power was tied up in the battle meditations like the Shrouding and Rites of Exorcism, but I think I'll add a squad psychic power option, kind of like how Terminators can currently take Holocaust on the squad. I've got a few ideas for some powers, and if anyone else has some, go ahead and post.


Go ahead. Do it. Make them powerful. I'm always telling people to make up their own rules and to make them good. Why? Because you really can't make the game much more imbalanced than it already is without trying really hard. Check out my Stellan Hoplites posted on the board. You know what the most common complaint I get about them? Marbo. I call my character Vespor so people think I made him up.

I have to agree with you here. I wrote these rules to have a powerful, competitive codex. I'm not going to go from having a overpriced, underpowered codex, to an overpriced, reasonably powered codex. I want a well priced, powerful codex. That's the whole point of writing my own rules. I'll just restate that I'd probably do really well with these rules as it is, so I'm not too worried about giving them more of a boost, though I'll add more units and such eventually.


If you don't make them as powerful as other 5th Ed codicies GW (eventually) will. The question is will you let them spoon-feed you or will take matters into your own hands?

I certainly hope GW updates us with a really powerful codex. With the way current codecies are going, I'll be pretty happy with what they do with Grey Knights (unless they make Inquisitor mandatory. Inquisitors are stupid, I play for the Space Marines with Jedi Powers).


Good luck, good gaming.

You too

[DarkLink]

Something else to consider: fluff-wise and stat-wise the psycannon was based on the 3rd ed assault cannon. Should the new version reflect that, being based points wise and stat wise on the 5th ed assault cannon (but still with the suspensors)?

Maybe on vehicles. I'll think about it. Probably not, though.

[Dunadan]

What if instead of legacies, GK heroes could take special missions?
Example:

Purge the Taint: At the start of the game, before setup, nominate one non-vehicle unit in your opponent's army. That unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save. In an Annihilation Mission, the nominated unit is worth an additional kill point if you destroy it, but your opponent scores a kill point if it is still alive at the end of the game. In an objectives game, the last model in the unit remains on the table when it is killed, and becomes an objective.

Retrieve the Artefact: At the start of the game, before setup, nominate one independent character in your opponent's army. That character gains a Daemonsword and is worth an additional kill point in kill point games, or becomes an objective when slain.

Daemonsword: Close combat, S+1, Power weapon

[DarkLink]

That's an interesting idea. You could have generic missions which grant bonuses based on what that mission would require.

Banishment: Grey Knight mission is to destroy enemy leaders; bonuses against monstrous creatures and independent characters

Cleansing: Grey Knights mission is to cleanse the area of all enemies; grants bonuses against infantry

Purification: Grey knight mission is to defend and purify some objective; makes more units scoring

Recovery: Grey Knights must recover a holy artifact; one enemy unit or objective counts as double killpoints/objectives for the Grey Knights

Prevention: Grey Knights must stop a Daemon from being summoned. Don't know what bonuses this could give.

[Dunadan]

Prevention: Give Justicars the effect of jamming beacons so you can mess with opponent's icons, etc?

[DarkLink]

Actually, I might make an anti-deepstrike squad psychic power like that. I'd thought about replacing mystics with the following squad psychic power:

The Grey knight unit may sacrifice its shooting in the next turn, in order to target a single enemy unit entering reserves within X" at the end of the shooting phase, normal shooting rules apply. In order to use this ability, the squad must pass a psychic test.


I think I'm also going to make a generic Squad Psychic Power rule to deal with how to use squad psychic powers.




So my main homework list so far is
1. Squad psychic powers
2. Revise Legacies system with something, possibly a mission system. (Now that I think about it, the mission system could be similar to the Black Templar Vow system on the Emperor's Champion, though I don't want to copy that either). Maybe a mix of Legacies and Vows, something in between...

[Ivarr]

I've never seen a forgeworld Grey Knight Rhino unit entry. Last I checked (and I checked just now), the psycanon razorback was for Inquisitors and IST's only, NOT Grey Knights.

Anyways, you bring up a good point. I tried to make these rules by updating existing rules, rather than completely rewriting everything. I'll let GW do all that re-writing, I'll just update stuff. Unfortunately, about the only significant thing forgeworld has done is give GK's Land Raider Redeemers (which are awesome, btw), and give Inquisitors and IST's a few extra transport options.

I think that GKs should get Inquisitional Valkyries. Roughly the same rules as the new Guard Codex. Little more expensive and BS 4. Maybe the option for door mounted psi-cannons in place of the heavy bolters for a slight cost increase. That would give them an impressive transport option and make them stand out among Space Marines. It also makes reasonable sense as they do work hand in hand with the ISTs.

[DarkLink]

I know I would love to be able to transport my Grey Knights in Valkyries (or more precisely Vendettas). For every two squads of GKs in a Land raider I can get 3 squads in a Vendetta.

I did add Valkyries to the IST transport options, but I think a lot of people would protest if Grey Knights got them (primarily non-Grey Knight players).

Something else that hurts is the fact that the Valkyrie is not an assault vehicle, and Grey Knights need to be able to jump straight into combat to avoid enemy shooting.

It is very, very tempting, though.

[Dunadan]

Had a thought the other day about stormtroopers: since they're so well trained and disciplined, maybe the Sergeant should make them Stubborn, and let them regroup while under half strength (like a bonding knife)?

[Melissia]

Honestly, I agree with darklink. Grey Knights anti-daemon rules need to be useful against more than just daemons.

[Sitnam]

Had a thought the other day about stormtroopers: since they're so well trained and disciplined, maybe the Sergeant should make them Stubborn, and let them regroup while under half strength (like a bonding knife)?

Agreed. IST's are the elite of the elite when it comes to stormtroopers. Proabably some of the best non-power armor troops the Imperium has. They have to be steady and brave enough to withstand the greatest horrors; alien, heretic, and daemon alike.

[DarkLink]

Honestly, I agree with darklink. Grey Knights anti-daemon rules need to be useful against more than just daemons.

Thank you. There is only one daemon player in my gaming group of roughly 20 people, and I've only played him once one on one. It's completely pointless to have an army that is only good against one other army if the players will never play against that army. It's just impossible to make it balanced.


Agreed. IST's are the elite of the elite when it comes to stormtroopers. Proabably some of the best non-power armor troops the Imperium has. They have to be steady and brave enough to withstand the greatest horrors; alien, heretic, and daemon alike.

I like that idea. I think I'll add in stubborn and the ability to regroup.