Companies that have permanently lost your buiness.

[Occam]

Normally this thread is full of love for the local game store, but today I'm going to write about a store that has permanently [or nearly so] lost my business.

Long story short, there are two issues. One is a bald guy named Mike who's 'that guy' because he has a little bit of power as a store clerk. The other is he tried giving me crap because I'm using a non-GW version of the book I went and had printed myself because the main rule book is too heavy. I own that big book--I won it at a local charity event and then used my computer to scan and copy a slim-down version of the book rather than buy dark vengeance [I only play Necrons] but he hassled me over it and I politely told him to get out of my grill and take up any problems he has with the Fair Use Copyright act.

I'm already part of a tourney at the store, but if he does it again, I'm going to demand my money back and drop out.

So what do you think? Yes, I've bought models and paint there in the past, but hassling me over 1st amendment rights is crossing a major line.

Any of you have similar stories?

[Psychosplodge]

Is photocopying something covered by your first amendment?

[Denzark]

The title of this thread would make more sense in the oubliette. Because it doesn't fit here.

[Mr Mystery]

HSBC are about to lose my custom. Been banking with them for over 17 years, and whilst I get occasional grief, they have given me nothing to deserve my custom.

Just waiting for my multi level complaint to process, and I'll be looking for a new bank!

Starbucks and Amazon can also kiss my tartan arse for their tax dodging shenanigans. I'll be using Play in future!

Sussex Arms in Tunbridge Wells? For serving your friends as soon as they come to the bar, whilst others have to wait ages for a poorly kept, overly chilled pint? Get stuffed! I'll drink where I can get away from braying student fools.

[Psychosplodge]

Oh yeah, HSBC hate them, I didn't travel to the branch to speak to someone to be directed to the red phone that connects to the same call centre staffed by people with a limited grasp of English I could have phoned at home...

[Mr Mystery]

Lloyds are worse with their call centre.

In my professional capacity, when I call a bank it's because the bank have pissed off a customer who has brought it to us.

So naturally, you put me through to Manila. Because that'll help!

[Dominic]

Yes, I've bought models and paint there in the past, but hassling me over 1st amendment rights is crossing a major line.


Out of interest, how is photocopying a copyrighted book protected under the first Amendment?!


Protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press, as well as the right to assemble and petition the government

Then again, maybe you worship the emperor and reproducing your bible is freedom of religion? ;)

[jgebi]

For me it would have to be the Chermside games workshop (in Australia) the staff are a bunch of dicks, seriously one basically had a fit because I was going to start a necron army (I just wanted to paint at this point might I add) and most don't seem to know **** about anything that isn't space marine

[RGilbert26]

Under the assmuption that Occam is talking about his local Games Workshop store then you Sir are an ***. The guy has every right to have a go at you for not using either the big rulebook or the small one, you don't have any right to photocopy their books. You are only allowed to photocopy what if anything GW state you are allowed to. So get off your high horse and either put up with carring the big book or get the small rulebook from ebay.

If on the other hand you are just talking about your local gaming store that does 40k, then the guy should mind his own buisness, lol.

EDIT: *** = a s s

[Wolfshade]

I want loose the custom of HMRC...

[Psychosplodge]

I want loose the custom of HMRC...

You need to be in a far higher earning bracket to do that...

[Kawauso]

Chapterhouse Studios.

I know they get a lot of flack around here, but honestly I have no problem with them making parts/models that fit in well with GW kits/styles.

What does it for me is that no matter how good any of their stuff looks 'on paper', everything I've ever bought from them has been a disappointment.

The biggest issue is that none of the parts ever fit. Off the top of my head, some pre-Heresy-style terminator shoulder pads that I had been saving forever for my Thousand Sons? Yeah, they didn't fit over the shoulders on the Chaos Terminator arms. And the pewter is so thick that when faced with the prospect of somehow making them work I just opted not to use them at all.

Ditto for their wheeled Chimera kit. That thing is a nightmare that would require far, far more conversion work to make actually fit flush with the plastic GW components than could ever be worth it. The Chimera kit was something I actually contact them about back when I was working with it and if I recall the gist of that conversation essentially went along the lines of CH telling me that 'it fits, you just must not be doing it right'. Yeah, no. It didn't fit, and at that point I didn't care; treads still look great.



Activision's another one. While I'm not sure if they've lost my business completely (though I can't recall the last Activision title I purchased), I did decide a number of years ago to boycott the CoD franchise.

In addition to the horrendous stories regarding how they handled things with their studio a number of years back (which struck a chord, since I was then working in the games industry), I was really put off by their ad campaign for...I dunno, I think it was MW2? The one with their '****' (Fight Against Grenade Spam) video. Now while I don't believe in bad words per se (i.e. I don't necessarily lose it just on hearing any given word; context is everything), I don't much appreciate derogatory slurs. In particular I don't appreciate them when they are being used in a manner that denigrates any group of people. Being that I'm bisexual, I'm particularly put off by homophobic remarks; there's quite enough of that in our modern society right now, thanks. So when a company decides that it would be totally funny to use a slur for comic effect in an ad video about in-game griefing (essentially calling people who spam a degenerate strategy in-game '****'; implying, you know, that there is something very much wrong with that)...yeah, that company loses my business.

Though I did get a good chuckle our of EA's counter to that video with one of their own for the Battlefield game they were launching at the time. Their fictitious campaign group was called 'FRAGS' (Fight Relentlessly Against Grenade Spam) which, in addition to -not- putting down a minority group actually made a 100% better and more context-appropriate pun.

[DarkLink]

Under our copyright laws, I believe you can make copies for personal use to your heart's content, so long as you don't sell or distribute or otherwise profit off of it.


Under the assmuption that Occam is talking about his local Games Workshop store then you Sir are an ***. The guy has every right to have a go at you for not using either the big rulebook or the small one, you don't have any right to photocopy their books. You are only allowed to photocopy what if anything GW state you are allowed to. So get off your high horse and either put up with carring the big book or get the small rulebook from ebay.

Bull****. Also, don't try and circumvent the censor system, BoLS has it for a reason.

[Defenestratus]

coolminiornot.

I've had numerous orders cancelled for no reason whatsoever given.

I just stopped ordering from them.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Sorry, RGilbert, you're mistaken on that point.

Under the Fair Use act, a copy of a work that you own can indeed be made, provided you do not intend to distribute or sell. Most lawyers and even Judges agree in that respect.

GW HAS to abide by that.

[Grulgor]

Wyrd miniatures, I was all set to start getting into Malifaux when their TtB kickstarter began, their attitude and the way they handled it has put me off of the company entirely. I now won't even be going near the tabletop game never mind their RPG, which hopefully won't be a reflection of the kickstarter or the first few hundred pages will tell you why you're wrong about how RPG's are meant to be then the last 10 or so will be a complete U-turn trying to make you love it.

[Eberk]

Under the Fair Use act, a copy of a work that you own can indeed be made, provided you do not intend to distribute or sell. Most lawyers and even Judges agree in that respect.

GW HAS to abide by that.
But if you are only carrying those copies around, how can anyone know you actually OWN the book ? You can as easily copy it from a friends book.

(What will happen if you arrive at a GW tourney with only those copies ??)


So take your book AND the copies to the store. Explain that you 1) have the book and 2) are only using copies because the weight and you should be fine, I think.

[Occam]

Is photocopying something covered by your first amendment?

Actually, while it may not explicitly be a 1st amendment issue, it does lie under fair use copyright act. I own the book and the content inside. I am not selling it to anyone else or claiming it as my own. I only made a portable version for myself. I still buy things at the indie store in question. I just don't like being hassled for something so minor.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, its a copyright law thing, not a free speech thing per se.

[Mr Mystery]

His store, his rules.

Don't like it, don't play there.

Besides, within your rights or not, the book isn't that heavy!

[Emerald Rose Widow]

His store, his rules.

Don't like it, don't play there.

Besides, within your rights or not, the book isn't that heavy!

I am with him on this one though, why carry around what you do not need. I myself bought the mini rulebook as that was a lot easier than photocopying, but both work. The point is while this may be the "guy's rules" its a pointless discussion and the guy is just driving customers off over something trivial.

Personally I have for a long time wanted to canibalize my codex for all the rules parts and put it in a spiral at a copy shop just so all I cary around is my rules section of my codex, making finding stuff a lot easier.

[Mr Mystery]

Thing is, when you walk in with a photocopy, it's only taken on faith that you have the original copy.

And is it trivial? Sorry to apply slippery slope logic, but if you allow one person, however legitimate their copy, you're giving tacit approval for others to follow suit, and there is no go guarantee they would obtain it through honest means. And when the copy in question is something you sell?

[fuzzbuket]

amazon for PC parts.

if i bought my graphics card from overclockers id have got farcry, sleeping dogs and i think another game or two?

i buy from amazon as its a fiver cheaper, they ship me a standard card instead of the OC edition and i dont get any games.

grrrr.

[Wildeybeast]

Starbucks and Amazon can also kiss my tartan arse for their tax dodging shenanigans. I'll be using Play in future!

Hate to burst your bubble mystery, but Play are based in Jersey so they don't have to pay any tax either. It's one of the main reasons they are so cheap.


Actually, while it may not explicitly be a 1st amendment issue, it does lie under fair use copyright act. I own the book and the content inside. I am not selling it to anyone else or claiming it as my own. I only made a portable version for myself. I still buy things at the indie store in question. I just don't like being hassled for something so minor.

You own a copy of the book yes, but you do not own the content inside. It remains the property of the author/publisher. That's like saying because you own a poster of the Mona Lisa, you own the Mona Lisa. I'm not sure on American law, but in the UK you have no right to photocopy any book that you own, and the legal stuff in the 40K rulebook explicitly says so. Have a look at the back of your rulebook, under the section saying who the authors are and see whether it says you are forbidden to photocopy it. In the UK, it works exactly like copying a DVD you have bought.

Even if you are entitled to copy it, that does not mean anyone has to let you use it in their store. As someone else has said, their store, their rules. Did it ever cross your mind that they may have a good reason for saying you can't use it? Like say for example, a GW rep comes round every once in a while and if they see the store allowing you to use copies of their books, they may withdraw GW products from said store? Did you even ask why they didn't want you to use it, or did you just get on your high horse and start spouting about your civil rights? You are moaning because the free book you got is too heavy!? Anyone I know would be overjoyed they didn't have to pay £45 for it and would carry it around with pride. The next time you want to post a whiny, petulant-child 'I'm not allowed to do precisely what I want all the time so I'm taking my ball and going home (maybe, but I don't quite have the guts too because then I won't have anyone to play with next time and I quite like playing, but you guys better start letting me do what I want or next time I'm definitely taking my ball and going)' rant seeking vindications for your actions, please do it on Whineseer where you might find some kindred spirits to agree with you. The store has been perfectly reasonable, if you don't like, fine, don't go there any more, but stop filling BoLS with such fatuous posts.

[Houghten]

Actually, while it may not explicitly be a 1st amendment issue, it does lie under fair use copyright act. I own the book and the content inside. I am not selling it to anyone else or claiming it as my own. I only made a portable version for myself. I still buy things at the indie store in question. I just don't like being hassled for something so minor.
Let us use a cheat code to skip past a great deal of arguing-over-details and assume that you are, in fact, correct on the point that you do have the "right" to photocopy your rulebook.

All this would mean is that GW couldn't sue you over it.

It wouldn't mean that a given store manager - GW or otherwise - would be obliged to allow it in his store.

[DarkLink]

WTF is your guys' problems? Chill out. Any store owner who's going to get pissy about someone finding an alternative to lugging around a twenty pound book for personal use is being a dick, at least when his store doesn't actually sell a real alternative (unless they start selling the little rulebook on its own). And Wildeybeast, this is in the US. UK law doesn't have anything to do with it. He posted about doing something perfectly legal, and you called him a whiny petulant child? Chill out, and quit being a dick. At the rate this is going, TDA's going to have to show up or something.

[Mr Mystery]

As mentioned earlier, book and diddy book are freely available, and very likely sold in that store.

If you walk in with a photocopy, store staff are entitled to say no. How do they know you own a legitimate copy? If they allow it, it's tacit approval that photocopies are okay for use. They then run the risk of never selling another copy of any book, as people just walk in with a photocopy, claiming to have bought the original elsewhere.

OP takes a perfectly reasonable response from the staff member, throws teddy from the pram, and hoots about his rights. Not exactly what I would term reasonable behaviour.

[Psychosplodge]

Hate to burst your bubble mystery, but Play are based in Jersey so they don't have to pay any tax either. It's one of the main reasons they are so cheap.

They've closed that loophole, and Play have now become, or becoming a market place only and not selling anything direct themselves...

^also they've lost my business on that basis as I've had so much hassle with some of their marketplace sellers.

[fuzzbuket]

WTF is your guys' problems? Chill out. Any store owner who's going to get pissy about someone finding an alternative to lugging around a twenty pound book for personal use is being a dick, at least when his store doesn't actually sell a real alternative (unless they start selling the little rulebook on its own). And Wildeybeast, this is in the US. UK law doesn't have anything to do with it. He posted about doing something perfectly legal, and you called him a whiny petulant child? Chill out, and quit being a dick. At the rate this is going, TDA's going to have to show up or something.



tda is probably going to make this worse :P anyways what better way to release pent up rage via random hate over the internet!

[Phototoxin]

Loyds TSB
Wayland Games
Total Wargamer

[Wolfshade]

Total Wargamer

I like using total wargamer, but only if I do not require my minis in a short time.

I've had things arrive up to 1 month late, a friend has waited 6 weeks. If I need the mini for a specific game then I go to the shop and buy it so I can guarantee that I have it in time, if not, I'll just wait for their last ever 25% off :)

[Mr Mystery]

Wayland?

I thought they were well regarded?

[bfmusashi]

They just haven't been the same since the Yutani merger.

[Uncle Nutsy]

(What will happen if you arrive at a GW tourney with only those copies ??) that's a little different. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be carrying around a copy for those kinds of special events.



So take your book AND the copies to the store. Explain that you 1) have the book and 2) are only using copies because the weight and you should be fine, I think. aaand that would completely negate the point of carrying a copy around, wouldn't it? If the guy is a regular and has a decent sized army, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume he has the book. But since the owner carries the mantra of 'my store, my rules', it gives him an excuse to be a total bellend.

[Wildeybeast]

WTF is your guys' problems? Chill out. Any store owner who's going to get pissy about someone finding an alternative to lugging around a twenty pound book for personal use is being a dick, at least when his store doesn't actually sell a real alternative (unless they start selling the little rulebook on its own). And Wildeybeast, this is in the US. UK law doesn't have anything to do with it. He posted about doing something perfectly legal, and you called him a whiny petulant child? Chill out, and quit being a dick. At the rate this is going, TDA's going to have to show up or something.

He is complaining that he isn't allowed to do exactly what he wants and his response is 'I'm not playing with you guys any more' (he's going to withdraw from the tourney and demand his money back). He could have politely enquired why he wasn't allowed to use the photocopy, had an adult conversation about it and tried to find a reasoned solution. Instead he unnecessarily escalated the situation and started spouting about his rights and that the store owner can't tell him what to do. Which is exactly what the petulant children do when I tell them they can't do something. Coming on here and moaning about it does not to solve the situation. What he needs to do is either grow up and try to find an adult solution or simply not got to the store any more. Moaning about it on here does nothing other than seek to soothe his bruised ego (just like the children who seek to involve others to justify their unreasonable behaviour). His behaviour is very childish, pointing this out does not make me a dick. If you want to involve a mod, I'd suggest you stop flinging around insults.

As to the legality I did say I'm not an expert on American law and suggest he check the book to see whether he is entitled to copy it. Frankly, whether it is legal is irrelevant any way. Being able to legally photocopy a book does not confer any responsibility on the store owner to allow you to use it in store.

[Phototoxin]

Wayland?

I thought they were well regarded?

ROFLAMOPANCAKESYRUPLOLIPOPS

'item is in stock' =/= they have it, it means 'we can get it .... probably'

I've had 2 orders take ages despite all green lights and then they were sent out minus an item. So then if I wanted said item I would have to pay postage again - or just buy in GW as the item + postage would be more expensive than GW. *RAEG*

Darksphere are the best IMHO , they are communicative and forthright, have decent discount and well stocked. All my big army orders (£200-300) come from them now.

[Mr Mystery]

I'll stick to ordering from GW ta!

Might not get a discount, but I get my goods.

[lobster-overlord]

Hoard O' Bits.

Sent out email stating huge sale, 10+ new items each day until end of Dec. Only put 60 items up, rather than what would have been closer to 200.

And they've doubled their shipping from $3 to $6 on ebay.

[Occam]

He is complaining that he isn't allowed to do exactly what he wants and his response is 'I'm not playing with you guys any more' (he's going to withdraw from the tourney and demand his money back). He could have politely enquired why he wasn't allowed to use the photocopy, had an adult conversation about it and tried to find a reasoned solution. Instead he unnecessarily escalated the situation and started spouting about his rights and that the store owner can't tell him what to do. Which is exactly what the petulant children do when I tell them they can't do something. Coming on here and moaning about it does not to solve the situation. What he needs to do is either grow up and try to find an adult solution or simply not got to the store any more. Moaning about it on here does nothing other than seek to soothe his bruised ego (just like the children who seek to involve others to justify their unreasonable behaviour). His behaviour is very childish, pointing this out does not make me a dick. If you want to involve a mod, I'd suggest you stop flinging around insults.

As to the legality I did say I'm not an expert on American law and suggest he check the book to see whether he is entitled to copy it. Frankly, whether it is legal is irrelevant any way. Being able to legally photocopy a book does not confer any responsibility on the store owner to allow you to use it in store.

I never said I threw a temper tantrum. That's just what you assumed and wrongly, I might ad. All I said was that I don't spend my free time in avenues were I'm going to be disrespected for exercising my consumer rights--and by the way, having worked with children, and adults who acted like children, if you're in a hostile environment or around angry folk, no one has to stay there and leaving is actually the mature thing to do. It's hard to write tone, but Mike was acting like "the prick" you were accusing me of. He literally walked up to me and said, nay, demanded that I show him the real book. When I said I left it at home, he told me to put back in the car and I said no. I then told him I don't have to show him anything as I'm following the law and if he has a problem, to write [local congressman]. I then told him to get out of my grill as he was trying to tower over me, which is never something I approve of.

I then decided to post here to see if this was an issue others in the community had dealt with. I have a few guesses about you and your argument, sir, but I have more decorum not to post about it in some random interweb forum. Also, I feel compelled to point out that you have frequently engaged in ad homenem rebuttal; You attacked that arguer, not the argument.

Sound like the whiny child argument you were making, right? You have the right to believe what you want, it's just that your beliefs are wrong. Please re-read my original post. There is nothing I said that wasn't already in there. I do admit to failing to mention that it was an indie store and that Mike isn't the owner, just a guy who works there, so I am sorry if that bolixed-up the argument or the question for anyone.

Again, in all instances, I was the adult. Having talked with a few other players, two of which are ex-marines, they too expressed similar problems but after one verbal confrontation, Mike slinks back behind the counter. Apparently, because I don't have 18" guns [biceps] like they do, he must think I'm easy prey or some junior high nonsense like that. For the record, I've had no other problems in the other stores [all indie] that I play in never have this problem because they understand that respecting the players brings in more cash.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I wanted to say thank-you to everyone who wrote in, especially those who stood up or me. Been kind of having a bad week, so seeing kindness from strangers, at leas on the internet, has made me feel a lot better. And thanks to those who tried to stick to the original question in the thread.

[RGilbert26]

Im glad im not a lawyer as trying to find an easy to read list of what falls under the term 'Fair use' is not easy, but from what ive managed to piece together is that photocopying a copyrighted book solely because it is 'too heavy' violates GWs copyright. Finding it too hard to carry a book from your house to your car and then the car to your local gaming store is not a good enough reason for you to photocopy it and is not covered by 'Fair Use'.

Here's a generic list of what is considered to be allowed under 'Fair Use':

"Fair use includes academic research, education course instruction and journalism purposes."

Don't think laziness falls under those three things and im sure there's more than just them.


Then again im not a lawyer so what do i know, lol.

[Psychosplodge]

I think he was referring to your initial post as the temper tantrum...

[bfmusashi]

I was under the impression converting my CDs to MP3s was covered by fair use so long as I did not distribute the duplicates. Is there a difference between photo copying a book I own for my private use and putting CDs on my nano? And if someone had a problem with that could it not be solved with a 'dude, come on?'

[DarkLink]

That was actually exactly what I was going to mention. It is legal to make a personal copy of a copyrighted work, assuming you're already bought it. It only becomes illegal when you attempt to distribute or sell it without permission. Of course, there aren't any clear cut rules, but those of you preaching from a soapbox should understand that the store owner would have to take this to court to be legally justified in this case.

Now, if you just assume that the OP is a liar, and if you assume you know copyright law well enough to pass judgement without knowing half the story (because it sounds like most people here don't know the laws and seeing as none of us were there we don't know the full story), and if you assume the OP is one of those dirty internet pirates (see not knowing the laws), then go ahead and stay on your high horse. But if your the sort of person who believes, like me, that you should give people the benefit of the doubt when you don't know what's going on, then chill out, because false accusations from ignorance are rude. That's what I meant by 'don't be a dick'.

For reference: http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php

[Mr Mystery]

Once again, the shop worker/owner is quite entitled to request sight of the original before allowing use of the copy.

OP escalated and threw teddy from the pram.

[Denzark]

This is still not a 40K general discussion. Yawn.

[Wildeybeast]

I never said I threw a temper tantrum. That's just what you assumed and wrongly, I might ad. All I said was that I don't spend my free time in avenues were I'm going to be disrespected for exercising my consumer rights--and by the way, having worked with children, and adults who acted like children, if you're in a hostile environment or around angry folk, no one has to stay there and leaving is actually the mature thing to do. It's hard to write tone, but Mike was acting like "the prick" you were accusing me of. He literally walked up to me and said, nay, demanded that I show him the real book. When I said I left it at home, he told me to put back in the car and I said no. I then told him I don't have to show him anything as I'm following the law and if he has a problem, to write [local congressman]. I then told him to get out of my grill as he was trying to tower over me, which is never something I approve of.

I then decided to post here to see if this was an issue others in the community had dealt with. I have a few guesses about you and your argument, sir, but I have more decorum not to post about it in some random interweb forum. Also, I feel compelled to point out that you have frequently engaged in ad homenem rebuttal; You attacked that arguer, not the argument.

Sound like the whiny child argument you were making, right? You have the right to believe what you want, it's just that your beliefs are wrong. Please re-read my original post. There is nothing I said that wasn't already in there. I do admit to failing to mention that it was an indie store and that Mike isn't the owner, just a guy who works there, so I am sorry if that bolixed-up the argument or the question for anyone.

Again, in all instances, I was the adult. Having talked with a few other players, two of which are ex-marines, they too expressed similar problems but after one verbal confrontation, Mike slinks back behind the counter. Apparently, because I don't have 18" guns [biceps] like they do, he must think I'm easy prey or some junior high nonsense like that. For the record, I've had no other problems in the other stores [all indie] that I play in never have this problem because they understand that respecting the players brings in more cash.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I wanted to say thank-you to everyone who wrote in, especially those who stood up or me. Been kind of having a bad week, so seeing kindness from strangers, at leas on the internet, has made me feel a lot better. And thanks to those who tried to stick to the original question in the thread.

As Pyscho correctly addressed, I was referring the your post, not what you did in store since I wasn't there. You don't have an argument for me to attack. Your point is 'I wasn't allowed to do what I what, I got annoyed and posted on the internet about it'. You have not addressed the 'their store, their rules' point. Did you enquire as to why the guy wanted to see your book?
As to the the original question, that is utterly pointless too. You ask about stores which have lost business because of the way they have treated customers yet by your own admission this store hasn't. You are just threatening to do so if they don't let you do what you want, which seems a) pointless b) childish. Either go back and sort it out like and adult, or don't. What does this thread accomplish other than make you feel better by trying to get vindication that you are in the right (which you have further confirmed with the 'thanks for sticking up for me guys' point)? If you have an issue with Mike, tell his manager about it then something might actually happen. Telling the store you are considering leaving their tournament might actually accomplish something. Telling us will no affect whatsoever. I don't have anything personal against you since I don't know you from Adam, I just feel that BoLS isn't the place for pointless moany threads. There are other forums that welcome that.

[Uncle Nutsy]

That was actually exactly what I was going to mention. It is legal to make a personal copy of a copyrighted work, assuming you're already bought it. It only becomes illegal when you attempt to distribute or sell it without permission. Of course, there aren't any clear cut rules, but those of you preaching from a soapbox should understand that the store owner would have to take this to court to be legally justified in this case.

Now, if you just assume that the OP is a liar, and if you assume you know copyright law well enough to pass judgement without knowing half the story (because it sounds like most people here don't know the laws and seeing as none of us were there we don't know the full story), and if you assume the OP is one of those dirty internet pirates (see not knowing the laws), then go ahead and stay on your high horse. But if your the sort of person who believes, like me, that you should give people the benefit of the doubt when you don't know what's going on, then chill out, because false accusations from ignorance are rude. That's what I meant by 'don't be a dick'.

For reference: http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php


This. This guy gets it.

[dawnofthedead]

You know if you don't agree with somebody that is fine but being a jerk to somebody because you don't agree with them say a lot about you.

[Psychosplodge]

Is this another cross atlantic divide? It's really quite interesting when that happens, especially about some of the things that it happens about.

[Wolfshade]

Well the law is different, in america you can copy things that you own for personal use, in the uk you can't. "Interestingly" I thought that you could but by the letter of the law ripping your cds to your zune is a violation of copyright.

We are brought up to believe that our laws are fair and so each come up with a different view.

[RGilbert26]

If you look at the back of your rulebook/codex it says you aren't allowed to photocopy the book, would be interesting to see what the back of the US version says.

[Psychosplodge]

Well the law is different, in america you can copy things that you own for personal use, in the uk you can't. "Interestingly" I thought that you could but by the letter of the law ripping your cds to your zune is a violation of copyright.

We are brought up to believe that our laws are fair and so each come up with a different view.

I think they're or just have changed that, as it probably the most ignored law in the country after the motorway speedlimit...

[Wildeybeast]

If you look at the back of your rulebook/codex it says you aren't allowed to photocopy the book, would be interesting to see what the back of the US version says.

I made this point a while ago, yet to get anyone from across the pond to check it out and let us know.


I think they're or just have changed that, as it probably the most ignored law in the country after the motorway speedlimit...

Because it's pretty much unenforceable. How would anyone who cares about enforcing it know you had ripped them? On a tangent, I heard a while back that songs you have legally bought from Itunes revert back to being their property when you die. Apparently the license you are granted to use them is non-transferable. Technically, the executor of your estate has to delete everything you have on your comp/MP3 player.

[bfmusashi]

I went into the other room and pulled it out. Yes it specifically says photocopying is off limits. Also, I think all English language publications from GW are the same as it has the addresses for the UK, Northern Europe, North America, and Australia in the back.

[Wildeybeast]

Thanks for that. I should have worked out they were all the same. It would be an interesting legal test to see whether that prohibition is enforceable over there.

[bfmusashi]

I've got to admit, I'm really curious too. Seeing the rulebook is registered in the British Library but not the Library of Congress or the National Library of Australia makes me very curious about international publication in general.

[Psychosplodge]

Because it's pretty much unenforceable. How would anyone who cares about enforcing it know you had ripped them? On a tangent, I heard a while back that songs you have legally bought from Itunes revert back to being their property when you die. Apparently the license you are granted to use them is non-transferable. Technically, the executor of your estate has to delete everything you have on your comp/MP3 player.

And thats another reason to buy the cd and just rip it...

[Necron2.0]

Volkswagen

As long as I live I will never own another one. In 2005 I bought a Turbo Diesel Jetta. The turbocharger exploded three days after purchase - shrapneled the engine compartment. VW wouldn't replace the car. VW wouldn't give me my money back. I had to hire a lawyer to force them to act like civilized human beings.

[Popsical]

Hmv and Blockbuster.

[alshrive]

Volkswagen

As long as I live I will never own another one. In 2005 I bought a Turbo Diesel Jetta. The turbocharger exploded three days after purchase - shrapneled the engine compartment. VW wouldn't replace the car. VW wouldn't give me my money back. I had to hire a lawyer to force them to act like civilized human beings.


Disappointing as Volkswagen is the Peoples Car!

[bfmusashi]

and slave labor free for over 50 years (maybe).

[Bionic Boy]

On a tangent, I heard a while back that songs you have legally bought from Itunes revert back to being their property when you die. Apparently the license you are granted to use them is non-transferable. Technically, the executor of your estate has to delete everything you have on your comp/MP3 player.

That is true, but there are lawsuits pending with the intent to change that. Bruce Willis of all people is one of several to file lawsuits to that effect. Getting old and having probably spend a lot of money on music, has made him argue (with good reason IMO) that he should have the right to leave his music, bought from Itunes, to his daugthers.
The outcome of these lawsuits is tremendously important as they can set a precedent as how right of property will be perceived when it comes to immaterial goods, for example Ipad codexes, other ebooks, movies, etc. I'm sure you get it.

Anyway, enough of me rambling, I've got to get back to
work before the boss catches me:D

[gwensdad]

I won't have my car serviced by Jiffy Lube anymore-I used to work there and they have ideas about how they treat employees that can be argued to be illegal. (like 10 hours without a break, getting permission to leave grounds when you get a break, etc)

I'm currently not buying Girl Scout cookies until they let Gwen join again. I've been trying for 3 years to get her back into a troop and they have been no help.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I won't have my car serviced by Jiffy Lube anymore-I used to work there and they have ideas about how they treat employees that can be argued to be illegal. (like 10 hours without a break, getting permission to leave grounds when you get a break, etc)

I'm currently not buying Girl Scout cookies until they let Gwen join again. I've been trying for 3 years to get her back into a troop and they have been no help.

why wont they let her in if I may ask?

[bfmusashi]

Yeah, my righteous fellow dad indignation is burning at the idea a baby can't rejoin her old girl scout troop.

[gwensdad]

why wont they let her in if I may ask?

I wrote up an explaination on my tumblr: http://inquisitorpsyduck.tumblr.com/post/40262806822/chelbra32d-replied-to-your-post-today-starts short form: they don't know what they're doing.

[Psychosplodge]

I dread taking my car anywhere *shudder* that said when it broke last they kindly fixed the handbrake FOC while it was there...

That sounds ridiculous GD, what ages are girlscouts? if she's missed three years is there many years left?

[gwensdad]

That sounds ridiculous GD, what ages are girlscouts? if she's missed three years is there many years left?

technically GS is age 6-18, but this is the "fun times" for most.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I wrote up an explaination on my tumblr: http://inquisitorpsyduck.tumblr.com/post/40262806822/chelbra32d-replied-to-your-post-today-starts short form: they don't know what they're doing.

wow, that is really rough. Sounds like a giant snowball rolling downhill of dumb situations. You would think they could do at least something about it.

[Mr Mystery]

Scouting is awesome, and it's a shame you can't find a troop nearby.

But all joking apart, consider setting up your own one.

[Wildeybeast]

That is true, but there are lawsuits pending with the intent to change that. Bruce Willis of all people is one of several to file lawsuits to that effect. Getting old and having probably spend a lot of money on music, has made him argue (with good reason IMO) that he should have the right to leave his music, bought from Itunes, to his daugthers.
The outcome of these lawsuits is tremendously important as they can set a precedent as how right of property will be perceived when it comes to immaterial goods, for example Ipad codexes, other ebooks, movies, etc. I'm sure you get it.

Anyway, enough of me rambling, I've got to get back to
work before the boss catches me:D

Yeah, that sounds familiar. The Bruce Willis thing was how I heard about it I think. Thanks and welcome to the forum.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Yeah, that sounds familiar. The Bruce Willis thing was how I heard about it I think. Thanks and welcome to the forum.

when it comes to the itunes thing, to me it is like this. If you die you don't have to return all your CD's (which have the same information on them) to the record companies, why should you have to return the downloaded music. Maybe I am oversimplifying this

[Wildeybeast]

I would agree and that is what I would imagine the court case is based on.

[Psychosplodge]

technically GS is age 6-18, but this is the "fun times" for most.

That's quite an age range.


when it comes to the itunes thing, to me it is like this. If you die you don't have to return all your CD's (which have the same information on them) to the record companies, why should you have to return the downloaded music. Maybe I am oversimplifying this

Seems a simple solution, on top of that the T&C are probably something stupid like 30k words so it's hardly reasonable to have expected anybody to read them to buy a £1 song or £10 album...

[Wolfshade]

when it comes to the itunes thing, to me it is like this. If you die you don't have to return all your CD's (which have the same information on them) to the record companies, why should you have to return the downloaded music. Maybe I am oversimplifying this

It is because you own the licence and not the song. Similiarly, with most software, you own the licence not software. Whereas I own a book, not just the licence to read it.

I do agree that it is a little off but thems the rules.

Which? ran an article about the length of some Ts & Cs and some of them are longer than entire Shakespear's plays

http://conversation.which.co.uk/technology/length-of-website-terms-and-conditions/

[Wolfshade]

As for comapnies that have lost my business, well since HP Sauce was brought out and had it's production moved to foreign shores I have had no brown sauce. The irony of closing the plant in Aston, Birmingham, following a highly publicised "Buy British" campaign...