Stormtalon and Heldrake: Scary as all that?

[eldargal]

So, with the rules for the DA Nephilim anto-air fighter and the rumours of a xenos flyer ave in February everyone on certain forums seems to be whining about the new flyers being terrible in comparison to the Stormtalon and Heldrake and that these flyers so named are overpowered.

I've never had a problem with either (the vendetta, I grant, is overpowered and underpriced dramatically), so is it just regular whining or are they overpowered? I've never had much trouble taking out heldrakes with my own flyers or at least forcing them to evade and minimising some of the damage.

[Kyban]

Don't know about the new flyers but I have yet to see the stormtalon do anything of note. The heldrake seems to do well in some games but little in others depending on the opposing army. As long as the new flyers are decent I think they'll do just fine.

[DWest]

Having played the Heldrake, I think its' reputation has been somewhat exaggerated. If you pack models together on an objective, yes, you're gonna have a bad day. That being said, I've put mine away because the thing draws so much flak (of the whinging kind, not the S7 AP4 kind), it just makes the game not fun.

The Stormtalon is I think middle-of-the-road, a good benchmark for where a Flier should be. It's not tremendously powerful, but it can do a good job on any kind of opposing unit (if properly equipped, with the Typhoon Missiles), and being able to go to BS 5 and get Strafing Run is amazing for thinning out hordes.

[ElectricPaladin]

I basically agree with you. A flyer is a neat tool, but it hardly dominates, and there are

Game One (2 x 2, Cities of Death, Exorcists & Space Wolves vs. IG & IG)

My stormtalon didn't dominate the game, but it was helpful. With all the tight-packed terrain, it's ability to ignore terrain and stop moving anywhere I could place its base was very powerful. However, since everyone had come prepared for a city fight, targets were still hard to kill. High priority targets, like enemy comissars, were equipped with camo cloaks and sported a hefty cover save. The stormtalon did manage to take out a squadron of manticores, which proved essential in the late game, when our tacs had to come out of their vehicles to claim objectives.

Game Two (Exorcists vs. Chaos Space Marines)

Here, my stormtalon achieved did a big fat nothing. It zoomed on, failed to take out my opponent's land raider, and then was shot down by a quad gun.

Game Three (2x2, Exorcists & Sisters of Battle vs. IG & IG

This is the game where my stormtalon dominated. Of course, by now, I had learned how to move it better. My stormtalon came on far to the right flank, which gave it plenty of room to maneuver across the battlefield. It soared behind enemy lines and started dropping Leman Russes like it was going out of style, then turned back into our deployment zone and started popping rhinos so the Battle Sisters could shoot up the tasty, tasty marines inside.

My opponents' lists worked to his disadvantage here. Both IG players were spamming battle cannons, which was hell on our transports and power armor infantry, but failed to scratch my terminators and couldn't even target my flyer.

Game Four (Exorcists vs. Chaos Space Marines)

Came on turn 4. Killed one obliterator. Shot down by a quad gun. I don't want to talk about it.

Thus, my conclusions are this:
• Flyers are not an auto-win button, mostly due to their lack of maneuverability. However...
• Once you learn how to use your flyer effectively, they can be an important asset. Even so, you will need to pick your targets carefully and accept that you will not be able to hit everything.
• Quad guns are very effective at taking them down (and my regular opponent who plays Iron Warriors always brings a quad gun).

In other words, flyers - at least the stormtalon - is a finesse tool, a scalpel rather than a hammer. It can be effective if you pick the right targets and know how to manipulate the situation. It can also die horribly, if you fail to protect it, or your opponent brings the right counter.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I've enjoyed using my Stormtalon very much, it's always pulled its weight and is an essential part of all my army lists. It's not a world beater, though - it's pretty flimsy, even to non-assisted ground fire, if someone wants it dead (and they usually do). They're useful units that are very good if used properly.

[Denzark]

I think the Heldrake is costed fairly. 12-12-10 - nice. But being able to vector strike in movement and then burn something in shooting turn is awesome. I rate as an auto-take for a pair. I just don't think you can ignore fliers. I have burnt pesky GK and expensive sternguard. and 5+ invulnerable from Daemon shenanigans - EG it should never be evading because of this. I have genuinely been put off getting Dark Angels because I am not convinced their air (therefore anti-air) is up to the job - the S6 will make it very difficult in a dogfight to dominate the armour 12 fliers - the highest threat index.

[DarkLink]

heldrakes with my own flyers or at least forcing them to evade and minimising some of the damage.

Why would anyone ever evade with a heldrake? They come with a 5+ invulnerable save, there's absolutely no reason to lose shooting for a 5+ cover.

[Archon]

From the DA flyer rules so far, I guess theese are underpowered and the raven (ist mighty) and the drake (is nasty) are not overpowered.

But to be honest, i ve only flyers against me, because my drake ist still in a box and awaits assembly. My valk is still lingering in the shelfes of a a shop.

The mostly encountred flyer was the stormraven. Wich can cause a lot of problems. In my opinion its the best so far. Has a lot of firepower and an overall AV12. Followed by the ´detta, wich is, strong underpriced. At No. 3 I´d like to set the drake. They all have a high AV in common.

With the other flyers I´ve simply not enough experience.

Uh and the dragon has a inv.save - no need to evade here:cool:

[eldargal]

Why would anyone ever evade with a heldrake? They come with a 5+ invulnerable save, there's absolutely no reason to lose shooting for a 5+ cover.

Yes I meant the stormtalon (and raven) not heldrake, oops.

[Tynskel]

• Quad guns are very effective at taking them down (and my regular opponent who plays Iron Warriors always brings a quad gun).

I don't get it... Why don't you kill the quad gun. It can be targeted...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't think the Dark Angels flyers are underpowered, they're just more directed at a specific use. One's a good (and potentially very annoying) ground attack craft, the other won't have too many troubles glancing other flyers to death, honestly.

The Heldrake is pretty awesome, but then Daemon Engines are pretty awesome. Who cares?

[Anggul]

The Stormtalon is a good unit and not over-powered in my experience.

The Heldrake can be a bit silly, but it really depends upon which army it's up against. My Tyranids don't seem to have any trouble, as toasting some Gaunts really isn't that big a deal, and if it fires at anything else it might kill a multi-wound creature or have a 50/50 chance of wounding an MC (and that's not including Iron Arm or Endurance). In fact the only thing that I worry about it firing at is Ymgarl Genestealers, but they exist to pop up, rip something into little bits (mainly fire support such as Devastators and Obliterators), then draw fire, so it's to be expected.

They're pretty crazy when the opponent is relying fairly heavily on marines on the ground such as jump pack Assault Marines, Noise Marines, Devastators and their equivalents etc., as they are quite capable of burning away most of a squad. Against many marines they're a bit mental, as they're also very resilient.

[Defenestratus]

I really don't think ANY flyer is broken when I have fuegan sitting behind that quad gun.

It puts the hurt on so bad that I feel guilty using it.

[Learn2Eel]

I really don't think ANY flyer is broken when I have fuegan sitting behind that quad gun.

It puts the hurt on so bad that I feel guilty using it.

:cool: How we roll.

[Anggul]

:cool: How we roll.

I think I would probably rather use a normal Fire Dragon Exarch rather than an expensive Phoenix Lord, seems a bit of a waste. XP

[Tynskel]

isn't 40k about being over the top?

[Wolfshade]

isn't 40k about being over the top?

Me and my 7 land raiders don't know what you are talking about

[noahwood]

Me and my 7 land raiders don't know what you are talking about

I bet you can't wait for the special character that unlocks land raiders as troops.

Also, Anggul, Fuegan doesn't die like a punk unlike some exarchs I know.

[Demonus]

Why would anyone ever evade with a heldrake? They come with a 5+ invulnerable save, there's absolutely no reason to lose shooting for a 5+ cover.

Only reason I can think of is late in game Night Fighting kicks in and you are in Opponents zone. You forgo shooting, vector strike something flying back to your side of the board, and evade with the stealth/shroud bonus that round.

[Denzark]

The Faq makes HELDRAKE even awesomer.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm not sure how many points the Stormtalon is, but if it's got a twinlinked autocannon that should be able to do a decent amount of flyer hunting if it gets rending rolls. Is it 3 hull points? Or just 2?

The Heldrake hasn't performed super duper well for me, though it does kill infantry nicely, softening them up for my ground forces to assault. I haven't tried it in a while, as I want to make a custom head and wings to convert my old scratch-made Hell Blade into one.

But generally speaking, for anti-air, I just take Havocs and Obliterators, and if I run Daemons with my CSM there will be a Fateweaver or Lord of Change or Tzeentch Prince with Bolt or even a Bloodthirster with Deathstrike. The Vector Striking and Skyfiring and no being 1 shotted to death are very helpful, though expensive. We'll see what the new Daemons in February have to say about flyers and anti-flying activities....

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure how many points the Stormtalon is, but if it's got a twinlinked autocannon that should be able to do a decent amount of flyer hunting if it gets rending rolls. Is it 3 hull points? Or just 2?
Twin-linked assault cannon, and 2 HP.

[Spjungen]

Heldrakes in my opinion break the game and are far too much of a defining factor in the current meta, as if flyers didn't do so enough already. It's simply far too effective and self-sufficient for its points, and seems like a half-@$$ed excuse by the devs for a sloppy job with the CSM codex. If you play chaos, there's absolutely no reason NOT to take a heldrake, and if you have one there's absolutely no reason NOT to take two more. All the other fast attack choices, or choices in the codex for that matter, pale in comparison to this thing, which literally has the power to make a squad of anything that's not a terminator or thunderwolf disappear on the turn it arrives. Marines, dead. Warp spiders, dead, crons, dead, DA bikers, dead...you name it, it's dead, and is no longer holding that objective. What's that? You've got a vendetta(s)? I have three autocannon havoc squads with flakk missiles.
This is without going into how survivable the damn thing is, sporting a 5++, armor 12, and the ability to REGAIN HULLPOINTS...oh, and it can re-roll wounds in one phase per game, as if the S6 wasn't enough.

The Heldrake essentially means that chaos players can be incredibly lazy and don't need to work hard at all to win. And if someone doesn't already play chaos, they don't need any other reason to join the club other than heldrakes...
This is WITHOUT going into the ridiculous shenanigans that a CSM/daemon alliance allows for.

[Allen Broussard]

of course you can target the quad gun, but with toughness 7 2 wounds and a 3+armor save you have to fire 2 heavy weapons at somthing that cant even shoot by itself, and in fact your army can use if you get in b2b with it.

Its really a waste to shoot at unless its the ONLY thing that can hurt your flyers.