Kill Points: Wolf Guard

[Deadman42]

Okay, so my question is: I purchase a squad of 10 wolf guard, keep 4 in a squad together, but split the other 6 off as squad leaders to grey hunters.

Scenario 1: The Wolf guard squad dies, but the squad leaders stay alive. Is a Kill point awarded for the Wolf Guard Squad?

Scenario 2: All of the Grey hunters in a squad die, leaving the wolf guard alive. Is a Kill point for the grey hunters, or does the attached wolf guard count as part of the squad?


One or the other must be correct. I'm just curious as to the difference in opinion. Is it:

"they are purchased as one squad, and as such must all be wiped out to gain their kill-point"

OR

"They fully join with the squad they are attached to, and as such are a part of it for kill-point purposes."

[Nabterayl]

I don't think there is a consensus yet. This thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2721) discusses the reasoning behind each position pretty thoroughly, but there's no way to reach a strong conclusion one way or the other on the basis of the rule wording.

Personally (and without limiting the generality of the foregoing) I favor the position the second position you list, that wolf guard attached to a squad
are counted as upgrade characters for that unit,
are part of their attached unit's Kill Point, and
are not part of any other unit's Kill Point.

[MightyOrang]

Agree with Nabterayl -- the wolf guard are an upgrade. if they're not, then does attaching a wolf guard (Elite) to a squad of hunters or claws (both Troops) then render those units now NOT Troops?

As such ... if their 'donating' Wolf Guard unit dies but the unit they've upgraded survives, then I'd say that attachment doesn't deny the enemy the kill point -- just as they would deny the KP by being the last man standing in the unit they're attached to.

[AirHorse]

Its done before the battle and the wolf guard that is attached doesnt gain the independant character rule so he is part of the unit he joins for the battle, so he definately should count as part of the squad hes joined for his kill point.

This is akin to combat squading, wolf guard leaders jump into their new squad and are part of that point, while any remaining in the original squad give up theirs when those who havent been loaned out are killed.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Yes, the best way I describe it to people is that it makes the Unit composition bit in their entry go from

- 5-10 Grey Hunters

to

- 0-1 Wolf Guard
- 5-10 Grey Hunters

Honestly if they had just put the "0-1 Wolf Guard" bit in each entry with an asterisk it would have made this a lot clearer for the purposes of Wolf Scouts and such.

This is just a part of the big trend GW is putting in every codex now, to give options to minimize kill points or maximize units based on the game type. It doesn't do a hell of a lot for the wolves, but there may be people out there who gear up with the intention of having, say, a five man squad of WG and 5 other squads, and if it's a KP game, they sub out.

[Ranagar]

I would prefer that they had made Wolfguard an actual upgrade WITH-IN the unit and not an ADD ON to the unit. It looks like they were attempting to keep as close to the idea of having as many WG as possible for as few unit selection as possible. Last codex had them all as a single unit choice of up to 20 in any single army. Now its 10 per unit selection in the force organization chart.

Once attached to a unit, the wolfguard would/and should be considered in ALL WAYS as a member of that unit, including kill points.

[Nabterayl]

I would prefer that they had made Wolfguard an actual upgrade WITH-IN the unit and not an ADD ON to the unit. It looks like they were attempting to keep as close to the idea of having as many WG as possible for as few unit selection as possible.
The way I interpret the intent is that they are an upgrade within the unit, but one that takes an Elite slot.

[MightyOrang]

So by extension, since he's not an IC, that WG would NOT ruin the scouts' ability to infiltrate?

[DarkLink]

So by extension, since he's not an IC, that WG would NOT ruin the scouts' ability to infiltrate?

That isn't known. The BRB has absolutely no rules in any shape or form either allowing or disallowing an upgrade character from gaining the special rules of a unit they are part of.

A lot of people will go on about how it isn't legal, because IC's don't gain certain special rules and such, but they're all talk. Upgrade characters are not IC's, and do not follow IC rules. The BRB has nothing to say, one way or another, about whether a WG joining a Scout unit would be able to infiltrate.

[wolflold]

It kind of sucks that the WG unit is an minimum of 3. If you play 1000 pts or less you'll have to take 3 squads of grey hunters/blood claws/ect. or no WG at all! And 1 WG running lose doens't work (and is stupid).

And i think they can join wolf scouts and use their special rule: BEL and infiltrate. It does say that if a WG joins wolf scouts he may not have terminator armour, jump pack or bike, kind of hard hiding in the woods if you have a big *** bike with you... I know the codex doesn't says this clearly, but whats the point of scouts with WG running and deploying with the rest of the army? So i say WG can use the special rules of the wolf scouts.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

That isn't known. The BRB has absolutely no rules in any shape or form either allowing or disallowing an upgrade character from gaining the special rules of a unit they are part of.

A lot of people will go on about how it isn't legal, because IC's don't gain certain special rules and such, but they're all talk. Upgrade characters are not IC's, and do not follow IC rules. The BRB has nothing to say, one way or another, about whether a WG joining a Scout unit would be able to infiltrate. If you visit theruleslayers.com, it has a pretty solid explanation of why, yes, this is legal.

This is of course if one is too brain damaged to realize that the limitations in the Space Wolf codex placed on Wolf Guard joining Scout units are obviously put in place BECAUSE they have this ability along with the scouts while joined to them.

Virtually 100% of the rules instances relevant to this pointed vaguely to "the unit" and not to "Wolf Scouts" and so seem to remain applicable.

[Tacoo]

I havnt looked at the FaQ, but didnt the IG have simialer problem with there penal troops sarge didnt have the rule for the chart while the rest did? if so would the be a good way of finding the simple answer?