Terminator Chaos Lord

[Eberk]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to come up with a good close combat terminator lord to accompany a 5-man strong close combat Terminator squad.

Restrictions are : NO mark and MUST have VotLW (he will be a Word Bearer)


The only thing I came up with is a Terminator Lord armed with 2 lightning claws + VotLW.


I'm looking for ideas, input, suggestions about how to outfit this Lord. I need someone to look at this with a fresh view, cause I think I'm not open enough for all the possible options.

thanks in advance

[pauljc]

Take the Black Mace? Expensive, and not always super effective, but if anything it has Fleshbane, and I'd say 2+ to wound is a good thing in CC. :)

[Denzark]

You are massively limiting yourself. If you alreay have TDA and twinclaws, your only other choices would seem to be the sigil of corruption to increase your invuln or maybe the key of nastiness from the daemon/artefacty weapon piece.

[Learn2Eel]

Kind of hard to take a really hard-out combat Chaos Lord without marks; no Tzeentch or Nurgle for durability, no Slaanesh or Khorne for insane combat ability and daemonic artefacts.
Still, the 'versatility' build is always a good foundation; Terminator Armour, Veterans, Sigil, Lightning Claw, Chainfist. Easy done and will cost you just under 170 points. Not the best but still very decent for his cost.

[Eberk]

Kind of hard to take a really hard-out combat Chaos Lord without mark
Yeah, I know Marks are good. But you just can't justify Marks in some of the ancient Traitor Legions, just like you can't justify Marks of Nurgle in a World Eaters army. That's my idea and that's why I wanted a Lord without Marks.

Do you propose taking a Lightning Claw AND a Chainfist instead of a pair of Lightning claws ? Why is that ? I think because although you lose the attack bonus for 2 weapons you can take on either infantry or armour, no ??


And @Denzark. Why I am massively limiting myself ?? I don't think I fully comprehend what you are trying to say. You mean that my proposal was already a sound one ?


I will consider the Black Mace again... had discarded him in favor of those 2 claws.


Thanks guys for all the input

[Learn2Eel]

Hey, I'm not complaining, I don't want Plague Marines in my Tzeentch army either.

Actually, as both weapons are specialist weapons, you still get the bonus attack. So essentially you are paying a couple of points more to also have a S8 AP2 Armourbane weapon on top of the claw. And yes, the versatility is why you take it. Nothing better than smacking Paladins whilst enjoying your 2+ armour, or dicing hidden power fists before they get strike with the claw.

[Kyban]

Do you propose taking a Lightning Claw AND a Chainfist instead of a pair of Lightning claws ? Why is that ? I think because although you lose the attack bonus for 2 weapons you can take on either infantry or armour, no ??t

Both are specialist so you still get the bonus attack.

[Angelofblades]

For just about the same points as twin claws you could go for Murder Sword, and combi weapons. Since your trying to go for WB, I would take the Gift for the pregame roll on the boon table.

[Clewz]

Lightning claw and chainfist with gift of mutation. Maybe a combat familiar if you've got points to chuck about

[Denzark]

Yeah, I know Marks are good. But you just can't justify Marks in some of the ancient Traitor Legions, just like you can't justify Marks of Nurgle in a World Eaters army. That's my idea and that's why I wanted a Lord without Marks.

Do you propose taking a Lightning Claw AND a Chainfist instead of a pair of Lightning claws ? Why is that ? I think because although you lose the attack bonus for 2 weapons you can take on either infantry or armour, no ??


And @Denzark. Why I am massively limiting myself ?? I don't think I fully comprehend what you are trying to say. You mean that my proposal was already a sound one ?


I will consider the Black Mace again... had discarded him in favor of those 2 claws.


Thanks guys for all the input

I mean with your restrictions there is not much can supplement this to benefit you.

[Nabterayl]

Lightning claw and chainfist with gift of mutation. Maybe a combat familiar if you've got points to chuck about
In my opinion this, plus a sigil of corruption, is as good as a non-marked terminator lord is going to get in general combat.

[Eberk]

Lightning claw and chainfist with gift of mutation

Well, this is what I'm going to do. Claw + Chainfist and Gift of Mutation, VotLW and (if I have the points to spare) the Sigil. This will be a good Word Bearer Lord I think ;-)

BTW is there a right-handed claw in the Chaos Terminator Lord boxed set ?

[Clewz]

yeah there is

[Caitsidhe]

You get what you pay for. I think the artificial barrier you are giving yourself (no marks) is going to make the discussion academic. I don't know why you would think the ancient Legions just fallen to Chaos would not gain the favor of the dark powers. Marks don't take centuries to appear. You give yourself to chaos and if some entity likes you... you get a prize. If you are building your list for purely "fluff" reasons you don't need our advice. Build whatever you think supports your story. Why ask us?

I assume you are asking for advice because you want to have a useful HQ. A vanilla Chaos Lord in Terminator armor is cheap. I suppose that is a saving grace. I wouldn't waste any other points on him. Why give him fancier weapons when his usefulness is limited to tanking with his terminator armor for the rest of the unit? I'm not being snide; I am just getting to the point. A vanilla CSM Terminator Lord doesn't make any Elite troops scoring and can't get certain war gear.

I suppose you could give him a matched pair of lightning claws to get another attack AND take a Combat Familiar to increase that further. It still seems like it would work against the only benefit the vanilla one gets you which is he is dirt cheap. My best advice is to find a colorful bent to your story so your guy can take marks.

[sfshilo]

No mark Chaos termie lord....so it needs to compliment the squad rather then be a beatstick.

Burning brand, chainfist, gift of mutation, Combat Familiar and ichor blood to keep up the attack count.

What you will gain:
Charge counter
Tank Counter
Wound Counter
Fearless
Hatred space marines
Anything that mutation gains you

A defensive mark like nurgle or tzeench will make this better but that should turn your simple assault squad into a monster for...185 points. God I love CSM lords now....

[BatMarine]

I say take sigil of corruption, claw/fist, boon, and then give him mark of tzeentch. If you don't want him to be blessed, strap a storm shield on him instead!

[sfshilo]

I say take sigil of corruption, claw/fist, boon, and then give him mark of tzeentch. If you don't want him to be blessed, strap a storm shield on him instead!

You're trying to rub it in that CSM can't have storm shields aren't you?

[Eberk]

In almost every answer I see the Marks reappearing although I said 'no marks'.

It appears to me that Marks are a must for a CSM army ? Is it not possible to create a good CSM list without any marks ?? This puzzles me, it seems the CSM Codex isn't all that versatile after all.

[BatMarine]

You're trying to rub it in that CSM can't have storm shields aren't you?

I'm not trying to rub it in, I'm trying to suggest a way to have a mark without fluff saying he is marked. Presumably the terminators aren't marked either, so it wouldn't interfere, and if he put a Storm Shield on to explain the 3++, then he could still say he isn't blessed by the chaos gods, he has a storm shield that he salvaged.

Look at the name there "Bat Marine" from Tsagaulsa... I know what it's like planning for a Legion list and wanting to be fluffy, and sometimes you can justify marks in other ways, where they don't represent a blessing, but special war gear, or perhaps veteran status...


In almost every answer I see the Marks reappearing although I said 'no marks'.

It appears to me that Marks are a must for a CSM army ? Is it not possible to create a good CSM list without any marks ?? This puzzles me, it seems the CSM Codex isn't all that versatile after all.

And with regards to this, they are versatile because of the marks. You can't expect a codex to be versatile if you take away half of it's options in the first place. Use a little creativity and it'll take you far, that's what the hobby's all about right?

The unfortunate thing is that the book is definitely more a black legion book than a word bearers or other mutation-less legion book. So you can either use a different marine codex that fits better (maybe the new Dark Angels, they still have customizable terminators, solid chaplain choices, etc) or you can find ways to justify taking a couple marks as other reasons, cybernetics, veteran status, etc.

My friend who has played 1k Sons as Tzeentch faithfully for years finally got sick of it, and decided that Tzeentch could easily mimic the blessings of other gods, or even better, that he would not always give the same blessing depending on what role he wanted the unit to fulfill in his great scheme. The -Well thought out background- for a given choice is only a guideline my friend, Chaos especially has a little more freedom

[Caitsidhe]

In almost every answer I see the Marks reappearing although I said 'no marks'.

It appears to me that Marks are a must for a CSM army ? Is it not possible to create a good CSM list without any marks ?? This puzzles me, it seems the CSM Codex isn't all that versatile after all.

It depends, as I said before, on whether by "good" you mean "competitive." There are decent unmarked special characters. Huron is one such entity. You could go with an unmarked Terminator Sorcerers pushed to the max. They would have the benefit of being able to put all their spells into one Discipline increasing your chance at the key ones. As another pointed out, Marks are part of what offset the CSM weaknesses and limiting yourself to no marks cuts options.

[Eberk]

"good" is for me not equal to "competitive". I am thinking about an army where you have a reasonable fighting chance against most other armies, you win some, you lose some :)

I always thought that the Marks were nice options... instead of being necessary for an army.

hmmm... back to the drawing board ;)

[Caitsidhe]

"good" is for me not equal to "competitive". I am thinking about an army where you have a reasonable fighting chance against most other armies, you win some, you lose some :)

I would define that as competitive.


I always thought that the Marks were nice options... instead of being necessary for an army.

The marks are nice options. They are something we have that others do not. When it comes to the HQ you have to decide what you want out of it. What job is it supposed (needs) to do. An HQ is required for FOC but it doesn't have to be great to make a good list. If you don't want marks, don't take them. Just realize that you will need to make up for what you have given up in the character area with other bells and whistles. Keep that guy cheap. Have him tank for the unit.

And for COLOR reasons nothing says you can't write your own fluff and say my CSM Lord is TOUGH. Pay for the mark of Nurgle but you know he isn't Nurgle. See what I mean? You can always come up with a reason that isn't a Mark to explain what the Mark does. Be as cinematic as you want.

[Eberk]

I would define that as competitive.
Semantics probably or just poor choice of words :) I meant that I didn't want a list that could compete in tournaments just be able to win once in a while when fighting some battles.



And for COLOR reasons nothing says you can't write your own fluff and say my CSM Lord is TOUGH. Pay for the mark of Nurgle but you know he isn't Nurgle. See what I mean? You can always come up with a reason that isn't a Mark to explain what the Mark does. Be as cinematic as you want.
Yeah, you're right. It's a possibility, it's something I would never have thought of myself

[mysterex]

hmmm... back to the drawing board ;)

Well if you want to start from scratch, have you considered a lord on a bike rather than with terminator armor?

I've been playing around with an unmarked lord on a bike with sigil, lighting claw, power fist and the burning brand. I find that the extra mobility of a bike lord is better than the extra point of armour and a torrent weapon works well with the mobility.

[Sure]

If you wanted to go low on the points you could always just go terminator armor, power sword & power axe, and melta bombs - with the Vet rule it's 127 points. Are there buils that will beat it? Heck yeah. But it sounds like you've got an army in mind and that you're looking for a leader for your gang of terminators, not the "I kill all" lord (that's abaddon).