I can has no assault grenades!! Suggested rules change?

[Crotch Lictor]

As a 'Nid player, I was thinking about how a good many of our units have no access to assault grenades, and in a lot of cases, these units also are assault oriented. What about a rules change where, if the unit being assaulted opts to snap fire at the assaulting unit, then the assaulting unit gets to attack at its regular, unmodified initiative order? Seems like a decent trade off to me. Thoughts? Has this already been discussed and I missed it?

[DrLove42]

Thing is Assault grenades aren't that common outside of the SPESS MUHREEENS

A lot of dedicated assault units (Incubi and Spawn are the two i encounter most) don't have them.

I think there might be something in the Tau codex that lets you be crapper in combat, but better in overwatch to simulate their tactics. But thats just a fan dex thing from me.

[Crotch Lictor]

Fair enough, but I think that this rule change could apply across the board, no? I was just talking 'Nids, because I play them.

Eldar, also have Assault grenades btw, right? Aren't plasma grenades off/def?

[DrLove42]

Some assualt units int he Eldar dex have them....i believe Wyches do, and some of the Aspect in Craftworld.

But in those cases it really matches the fluff, wheras I can't see Nids hurling grenades to cover their advance. They just rely on numbers

[DarkLink]

What's the point of assault grenades if everyone everywhere always has them?

[Wolfshade]

I think one of the biggest changes is that you can now use grenades against monstrous creatures...(unless I am miss-reading the rules)

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah, I'm with the "this is not a problem" crowd. While it must be frustrating to have your 'Nids dropped to I1 when charging through cover... that's what cover is for. It's why it's useful when you're, well... fighting 'Nids. If we remove the effects of cover, then we remove one of the primary effects of the table, and the table is part of what makes games unpredictable and... fun.

[Wolfshade]

I suppose the other way that they could "resolve it" is that the defensive grenades give you a boon to your snap shots. But while it is frustrating it is just the spacemarines that tend to be loaded out with them

[DWest]

Another option (not super-reliable, but it's there) is to throw Pinning weapons at the baddies, such as Barbed Strangler, Stranglewebs, and Spore Mines. Units who are Pinned are forced to Go to Ground, and a unit who has Gone to Ground does not penalize the I of any units assaulting it (BRB pg 18). Furthermore, Know No Fear doesn't prevent Pinning, although it prevents virtually everything else. It's a tricky, wonky solution requiring a lot of coordination to pull off; i.e. it's 'Nids in a nutshell.

[Dorsai]

Given how many monstrous creature you have, or have Move Through Cover, I don't see the problem. And also, would a gaunt really throw something, or just charge in? Of course, how often do you have just a single hormagaunt? You should have large numbers of them. The same thing applies when I field a fifty man squad of guardsmen. Yeah, the marines might be able to kill ten to twenty before I get to swing, but the survivors get to take their swings. As long as I get the charge, I can always keep the marines from destroying a unit before it gets to swing back.

[Crotch Lictor]

I'm not suggesting that gaunts should hurl grenades, I'm just suggesting that it could be a choice for the unit being assaulted between "Do I snapfire, or do I hold off and make them take the lower initiative."

Am I misremembering the fluff when I recall the lowered initiative for charging into cover as "Imagine the unit carefully approaching as they don't quite know what's in there.." sort of thing? Because I don't see that really fitting 'Nids either. They'd just go full bore no matter what.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining, as it's really not proven to be a problem for me, I was just thinking out loud.

[DWest]

I believe the fluff is more like "the unit gets stuck maneuvering or hacking their way through the mess and thus can't bring their weapons to bear in time". As for overwatch vs. initiative, I would imagine it would have to be a situation where the defending unit gets to fire at full BS, as they basically abandon cover to take aimed shots. Bigger risk, bigger reward.

[Crotch Lictor]

Ah, ok. Wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly. Though "fluff" and "correct" seem to not go together like chocolate and peanut butter sometimes.

[Denzark]

Nids should not get assault grenades unless it represents some biological attack method whilst charging. The rules and fluff are fine as is. you have a veritable horde of High ini, high strenght hth monsters. Catch people out of cover and chop them up easy.

In cover, a bit harder for the gribblies. they all die - never mind, the hive mind opens another box. No problem, no change needed.

[DWest]

Actually, in my mind, the fluff would be the best reason for 'Nids having assault grenades- the Hive Mind is constantly tweaking its' broods for maximum effectiveness, and if they're not managing to get the job done in CC, well, back to the drawing board (breeding pen?). That being said, I don't think the rank n file need assault grenades. Genestealers maybe, if only because they got kicked in the teeth, hard, by the edition change.

What I would really like to see is a purchasable upgrade, similar to Chaos' Vet of the Long War: gives you Preferred Enemy: the opponent's main detachment, and makes your armor save invulnerable against said detachment, but penalizes you slightly against any ally they have (re-roll successful armor saves maybe?). I'm basing this on the bit about Hive Fleet Gorgon in the current 'dex, where the swarm kept adapting to the enemy's strengths, but that left them weak to any other trick. It would of course have to scale heavily- 1 pt per for gaunts, but probably in the 20+ range for the big bugs.

[Zeshin]

Well since we are proposing rules changes here goes. What if certain units got the ability to charge blindly into cover and thus attack at normal initiative, but as a consequence they take dangerous terrain tests to show both the danger of unknown terrain and the defenders taking advantage of the fearless charge? Just a thought. Makes fluff sense but it could unbalance things.

[Tynskel]

uh, that's what going to Initiative 1 does. you blindly charge in, and as the consequence, your opponent strikes at you first...

[Wolfshade]

Oh! I know!

Xenomorph upgrade: Acid spit. When charging the smaller xenomorph's spit bile and acid at defenders sending them cowering and ducking behind cover.

[Learn2Eel]

When 'Nids are redone I would like to see Hormagaunts/Genestealers/etc have assault grenades included in their basic profile. It's not too crippling a factor for certain units, but others need it.

[Zeshin]

uh, that's what going to Initiative 1 does. you blindly charge in, and as the consequence, your opponent strikes at you first...Actually my idea was to allow certain units the option of getting their full initiative at the expense of dangerous terrain wounds on the charge. And the initiative 1 penealty is more for the lack of charge momentum because your opponent has prepared a defense in the terrain he is hiding in.

[Anakzar]

The lictor already strikes on its initiative order when assaulting an enemy in cover, due to its Fleshhooks. Pg 41.

Anyhow could just give them the option of buying fleshhooks without weapon stats so they can't shoot them in fireing phase.

Carnifex has something like frag granades but they don't help him all that much as it is I3 if it charges... atleast it beats orks... Carnifexes used to have I6... granted that was ages ago. I thought the fluff of tyranids was that they are constantly evolving to be better fighters? (It looks to me like several units/broods have lost ground stat wise).

[Tynskel]

I don't know how you calculated I6...

Considering it is I1 + 2 + 1 for furious charge in 5th edition...

[Zeshin]

I think that goes back to the 4th ed. codex where they could buy certain stat upgrades.

[Tynskel]

No, not even then, because in 4th, they didn't get the +2 Initiative bonus. All they got was furious charge bonus.

Even 3rd edition, you couldn't do it. You had to take an army of 4 or less types of bugs to be able to mutate the Carnifex, but even then, you could only add +1 to a stat. Much better to take toughness.


Okay, in 2nd Edition, the Carnifex was Initiative 6. That was 14+ years ago... And initiative did different things back then, too.

[Anakzar]

Bah its 2nd Ed when the carnifex was a god! I did say it was a long time ago :)

It had terminater armor and a crazy stat line... 10W was because weapons did more than 1 wound a hit but the other stats didn't need to be knocked down as much as they were...

M6 WS6 BS4 S7 T8 W10 I6 A4 Ld10 Now WS3 BS3 S10 T6 W4 I1 A4 Ld7 Sv3+

M=move tyranids had a 6 move almost across the board(most other armies had 4) and that could have been translated into Fleet.

WS shoulda remained the same or at most dropped one point.

BS I can see dropping it to 3 due to rules changes...

S actually went up but at the cost of a drop of 2 on T and 5 on I so I don't see a net gain there lol.

W the drop from 10 to 4 makes sense due to weapons only doing 1 wound now.

I was dropped to 1... why I don't know dreadnoughts and walkers have 3-4 so why the big drop?

A stayed the same

Ld lost several points and they have feed(Can work in its favor if its close to the enemy)

Sv was terminator armor (back then 3+ on 2d6, now 2+ with 5++) Its only got 3+ armor I am hoping that its upgradable to 2+ in a new codex 2+(5++) like a terminator is too much to hope for.

[Tynskel]

yeah, but the game played completely differently.
You rolled your attacks (4 for the carnifex) then added the highest to your weapon skill (adding +1 for every extra 6, and -1 for every extra 1). Then you compared to your opponent's total. Whoever had more then subtracted the lower number from the higher and dealt that many hits to their opponent, rotating between weapons for each hit...

The point is, the statline back then for the carnifex was okay, it wasn't great for a monster its size. What made it really good was the bio-plasma attack. The Hive Tyrant was a beast. I remember getting 3 save throws (3+ on 2D6, 4+ voltage field and caused blindness if passed, and Null Zone which could stop everything, including psychics).

Nothing was the same. The carnifex is still a beast now. It is regularly str 10 on the charge, and can do much damage, crushing everything with ease.

[Anakzar]

Yes it was a different game back then but my point is that other races stat lines didn't suffer as much or at all. Take basic troops like the termagant it lost WS, why? When other races basic units remained the same? All these changes as a whole are what really hurts...

I do like the new critters though some of the stat changes carried over to them as well... I1 on anything big? Why? Dreadnoughts and walkers don't have I1... Heck even the really big walker types don't have I1.
WS3?! tyranids were and are supposed to be CC experts but with I1 and W3 thats not expert level... I4 and W4 for basic troops that is expert.

I think this happed because in 3rd there was a push to tailor stat lines so they were dropped lower so they could be brought back up with bio-morphs. And then the changes just got stuck in and carried on. Hormagaunts ended have a useless BS3, no shooting weapons and no way to get them as an example.

I still like them and am not going to stop playing them but some of the broods have limited utility and most of this is due to strange stat lines. Example if warriors warriors were T5 and W2 again, would people field them more often? Pyrovore a CC critter with WS3, I1 and A1? Its ranged weapon is a flamer so it has to get close so why give it such weak stats when its ment to be a CC critter(in its fluff)? I also think most of the mid ranged critters should have T5 to go with thier extra size...