Suddenly the Imperium of Mankind seems a lot less impressive...

[Brakkart]

One of the things I've always loved about the 40k universe is the vision of the vast Imperium spanning the Milky Way, connected by the light of the Astronomican and emcompassing a million inhabited worlds. It has always seemed so massive... right that is until today when I read this new science article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20942440) on the BBC website which covers a report from NASA's Kepler Space Telescope. The telescope stares at a region of approx 150,000 stars in an effort to work out how many of them have planets orbiting them and if any are in the co-called Goldilocks zone where Earth is in the hope of finding worlds there capable of supporting life.

A million inhabited worlds always seemed like a huge amount, until this report which estimates from its findings of just that region, that the approx number of potentially habitable worlds in our galaxy is a staggering 17 billion, which kinda makes the Imperium out to be some tiny provincial nation rather than a galaxy spanning empire. It's like the Soviet Union suddenly shrinking to the size of Monaco.

[Psychosplodge]

That's with the added ability of hindsight though, no doubt when they wrote it in the 80's a million worlds in a vast expanse of galaxy seemed huge, then science interferes and ruins everything, DAMN YOU SCIENCE! WHEN WILL WE LEARN?

[Wolfshade]

Yeah don't for get no extra-solar planets were found when the Imperium was founded. Indeed, there were people who thought Pluto was a planet!

One of my mates works on that project. I am not at all jealous...

[eldargal]

If one of those planets doesn't have Asari on it I'm going to be very angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry (http://i45.tinypic.com/15f4uts.jpg)...

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah don't for get no extra-solar planets were found when the Imperium was founded. Indeed, there were people who thought Pluto was a planet!

One of my mates works on that project. I am not at all jealous...
The B*stard de-classified pluto?

If one of those planets doesn't have Asari on it I'm going to be very angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry (http://i45.tinypic.com/15f4uts.jpg)...

You're not getting broody are you? :D quick wheres TDA?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I can't say I relate, mainly because 40k is a science-fantasy setting like Dune and such, so it is easier (well for me personally) to think of it is as something seperate from reality or any realistic science fiction setting (like Mission of gravity or Dragon's Egg ect), it is more a "fantasy" milkyway to me than a realistic depiction of the future of the real milkyway.

[Kirsten]

If one of those planets doesn't have Asari on it I'm going to be very angry

hell yes

[Wolfshade]

The B*stard de-classified pluto?
The argument for Pluto being a planet was really "I'm an american and I discovered it"

It was significantly smaller and nearer than was originally predicted, based on perturbations in Neptunes orbit.

The trouble with it was that there was no formal definition for what a planet was.

If you were to look at the rest of the planets the orbits are relatively flat to the horizontal, where as Pluto is highly inclined and eliptical, more like a comet. Indeed for signficant parts of it's orbit it is closer to the sun than Neptune.

The issues with Pluto became worse when it was discovered that Pluto was just one of a number of objects in the Kuiper belt, and just as the four largest asteroids between Mars and Jupiter became de-classified after other asteriods were discovered so as more Kuiper Belt objects were observed people began to state that these objects were all similar and should be classified together and as non-planetarty objects. Still it was argued that Pluto was the largest object and was somehow special, then Eris was found which eclipsed Pluto in size and mass.

The IAU then met in 06 and voted to downgrade it to a dwarf planet.

It was and is not a universally accepted deffinition but those who argue against it tend to rely on history and the special feeling about it being aplanet.

Sorry I wrote an essay on the subject in my first year, just before the IAU decision

[DWest]

Also, keep in mind, the Imperium has "a million inhabited systems", with many systems having more than one planet. And they currently have a million; imagine how many more they could count if they didn't go all Exterminatus-happy every time somebody lets a heretical-smelling fart in public.
Plus the formation of the Eye of Terror bit a substantial chunk out of the galaxy, and the Eldar still hold a quantity of planets, and even if they could nobody would *want* to claim an Ork-infested planet as one of their own, and also the Nids have been busy om-nom-nom'ing stuffs.
It's still nowhere near all 17 billion estimated, but then again that number only covers planets that "could" be habitable based on where they lay in a system and how they're composed, as opposed to being confirmed as having a nice green carpet of grass spelling out "Welcome Earth Tourists!"

[Nefarius Drapesh]

...well...
...there also was a time when all of Jules Verne's novels were considered pure fiction...

;)

[Xenith]

One Million inhabited worlds =/= One million potentially inhabitable worlds.

There are still worlds in the Imperium that, while habitable, are uninhabited.

[Wolfshade]

Or are inhabited by non-Imperials, or are still cut off from the rest of the imperium by warp storms since the age of darkness

[YorkNecromancer]

It's like the Soviet Union suddenly shrinking to the size of Monaco.

There's a reason why:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

[fuzzbuket]

my problem with imperial maps is the fact that all the space maps are 2d. just let that sink in, the imperium of man is like a frisbee. why cant it be spherical ?

[DWest]

Actually, the 2d makes sense; if you look at a spiral galaxy like the Milky Way, once you zoom out far enough to have the whole thing on a single page, the thickness of the disc becomes insignificant, until you get to the very core, a.k.a the place where the big scary black hole driving the thing is.

[Mr Mystery]

Apologies, but replied = TL:DR.

Billions of worlds the same size does not equate to billions of inhabitable worlds!

[walrusman999]

One would think that with the technology they have they could potentially colonize worlds that arn't necessarily inhabitable by manipulating their atmosphere to make it habitable. But then there is the fact that the IoM has a horrible problem with logistics and so inhabiting new worlds is potentially impossible since they probably couldn't pull the resources together to inhabit a new world.

Also I agree that they should stop Exterminating every planet that isn't already controlled by the IoM.

For the Emperor!

[Dlatrex]

Ugh. Should I really try to defend the indefensible? :confused:

Let's take a look at some star-charts of questionable validity. The modern imperium of man is of course centered on Terra, and broken up into 5 segement(um)s. Now Ultima Segmentum is the most sparsely populated of the imperial segements (with the notable cluster of Ultramar) so let's ignore it for the moment. With just the remaining 4 segements, the imperium 'covers' roughly 31% of the galaxy by area. We might assume Ultima segmentum is only populated at 1/5th the density of the remaining 4 segments (generous), which means we’re probably looking at an equivalent territory of about 42% of the galaxy. We’re already down 7.14 Billion worlds! Making progress!

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110121215147/warhammer40k/images/0/04/The_Warhammer_40k_Galaxy_Map.jpg

[Dlatrex]

So right now the Imperium of Man looks like it covers between 40%-70% of the galaxy by area. So who does it get to share all this territory with? Let's look at the Xenos/Heretic's maps.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0y2seqEPuOs/TDJcOKSUqGI/AAAAAAAAAUo/dpEYeUi69KE/s1600/Tyranids_incursions.jpg
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/22/Chaos_marines_engagements.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/battlefleet-gothic/images/2/2b/Necron_Activity.JPG
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/6c/Orks_activity.jpg

These are deceptive as mostly they show imperial ‘incursions’ with each of the threats. Chaos and Orks seem to compete for most populous, but given that Orks seems to move much more slowly than the other empires, they are likely the largest owner of worlds outside the imperium.

Let’s see if we can Math-Fu the remainder:

Start with 7.14 billion worlds:
Assume that right off the bat ½ of them are undiscovered/uninhabited, stuck in the eye of terror, or inhabited by some other xenos not mentioned.

3.57B

Assume that the Imperium shares 50% of its 'sovereign area' evenly with the 5 intruding powers (Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and Eldar protected/exodite worlds)

2.14B

And take into account the standard error at the Administratum (20%)

1.71 Billion

…

Ok I tried. Even being very generous it is likely that the Imperial almanac is short it’s estimate by a factor of 1,000 given what we now know about the galaxy. Let’s hand-wave this and assume that over the next 40 millennia warp-storms destroyed 95% of the habitable worlds.

OH and as a PS, I did not forget about the Tau: at 300 light years across, the Tau Empire covers roughly 0.000330579% of the Galaxy.

[dark messenger]

Let's not forget that even at the very height of it's power, when Emperor and his Primarch sons were stomping on aliens, most of the Milky Way galaxy (as we know it) remained well outside the Imperium's borders.
Do not think of the Imperium as a connected web of worlds all extending to Terra. It's more strong clusters of inhabited space that withhold against the rest. Without warp travel and the Astronomican there would be no Imperium.

Kinda makes it more impressive what the xeno races have managed to achieve! Really makes humanity look bad (and that's me saying that as an avid IoM supporter)
Consider also that the IoM has the technology to "Terraform" planets and regularly do. As many planets suffer Exterminatus so an equal amount are discovered or graded and put to use as fully functioning worlds of the Imperium.

If it was comparable to the real life galaxy, then I have to say that it's still impressive for humans if we do indeed achieve what was accomplished in 40K. If we get cracking on it, we should be colonising our own Sol system within the next few centuries...
So where's the Emperor hiding then? :D

[Psychosplodge]

It's stated in numerous places in the extended background universe material that Orks are the most numerous species in the galaxy, it's only their disunity that prevents them taking over...

[Denzark]

I think the number 1 million entirely reasonable. If our current tech level allows us to see these billions of worlds, and yet we know of only 1 actually inhabited as opposed to potential for inhabitation, then i think the blood and treasure necessary to to get off Sol A3 and expand, means gaining an extra 999,999 worlds and seeding them with meaningful habitation is actually not bad work in 40,000 years.

[eldargal]

It would also offer a good explanation as to why the IoM hasn't just destroyed/colonised all the exodite colonies and Maiden Worlds, even they don't have the bureaucracy to chart and send expeditions to every potentially inhabitable world.

[Wolfshade]

Does anyone else wonder if the IoM is just the logical extension of the United Federation of Planets?

[Psychosplodge]

No because it too killy rather than huggy

[Wolfshade]

But perhaps they started out huggy and after the hostilities encountered in the delta and gamma quadrants become less tolerant and more xenophobic?

[Psychosplodge]

But they're fundamentally different, or have the Imperium eradicated their former allies?

Also the history of the imperium doesn't match up, early colonisation was done with stasis ships, whereas I don't think humans left the system pre warp in star trek?

[eldargal]

Yep, Zephram Cochraine develops warp drive, attracts notice of the Vulcans, human colonisation of the stars follows. Doesn't really match up with 40k history at all.

[Wolfshade]

Ah well, it was a thought.

Although statsis ships do occur in ST.

Maybe in the next retcon...

[Psychosplodge]

Oh I know they exist, iirc they use the technology in a voyager episode don't they?

[Dlatrex]

It would also offer a good explanation as to why the IoM hasn't just destroyed/colonised all the exodite colonies and Maiden Worlds, even they don't have the bureaucracy to chart and send expeditions to every potentially inhabitable world.

This is an excellent point. Coupled with the discussion about how colonization happened the distribution of the IoM makes a great deal of sense. This is not an empire which grew large enough to over-spill it's boundaries and incrementally annex the adjoining systems. Instead stasis ships were sent out, chaos intervened, primarchs were scattered, and the warp takes ships off course and far beyond their original point of destination. Thus while far-reaching the IoM should have plenty of uncharted/uninhabited space 'within its borders'. To return to the Star Trek analogy, the Segemtums are probably much more akin to the galactic quadrants, rather than the border of the federation. I wonder within even the Sol Segmentum exactly what fraction of words / control the IoM is able to maintain.

[Denzark]

But they're fundamentally different, or have the Imperium eradicated their former allies?

Also the history of the imperium doesn't match up, early colonisation was done with stasis ships, whereas I don't think humans left the system pre warp in star trek?

Khan Noonien Singh?

[Psychosplodge]

?
I've only seen him in the film...

[Renegade]

Given that it takes quite a large amount of bureaucracy to run a large country, I don't think the IoM does that badly. Consider the numbers of citizens wholes files disappear in to the 'ethereal plane', only to be discovered and hidden again by some junior clerk, losing whole planets is going to happen from time to time., and the ever increase to load would take a behemoth effort in a creaking system. Now add the culture of 40k, and the whole thing becomes monumentally impressive that it works at all. I would be like keeping tabs on a million people in a continental spanning country that still relies on pen and paper, with a few BBC computers, imho.

You have planets taken, lost, destroyed, eaten, and behind the filing cabinet. A billion seems like a good place to put the number of planets the the IoM 'knows' that it holds, as like any census, there are going to be errors.

*Actually, given the temperamental nature of IoM technology, make that the old 48K Spectrum rather than BBC computers. All that had them offered up the mantra "pleaseloadpleaseloadpleaseloadpleaseload"

[Wolfshade]

You've touched on one of the issues here. The size of the imperium makes any form of central management impossible, you need to consider the amount of time it takes not only for the information to be catalogued and processed, without a level of analysis but also the transmission time.
On earth we have very sophisticated electronic systems to maintain the markets and ensure that information about stocks appear everywhere at the same time, otherwise the communication lag can be exploited.

[Dlatrex]

Indeed. This should be most closely related to the British Empire between the 16th - 19th centuries; I'd be very surprised if the IoM was not heavily modeled after that colonial time of history. Do we have any history scholars who could tell us if the Empire ever tried to maintain that centralized a control of a far-flung, slow-information, variegated empire? I know that governors had a very large role at various times, and I wonder if that is where the analogy falters...

[Renegade]

Indeed. This should be most closely related to the British Empire between the 16th - 19th centuries; I'd be very surprised if the IoM was not heavily modeled after that colonial time of history. Do we have any history scholars who could tell us if the Empire ever tried to maintain that centralized a control of a far-flung, slow-information, variegated empire? I know that governors had a very large role at various times, and I wonder if that is where the analogy falters...

It depends really how you define the 'British Empire', as some of it started off as private ventures or settlements, rather than a national land grab. We know a lot about the numbers involved in trade due to accounts that were kept, like tax records and shipping manifests, rather than any central mechanics. Think of it more as like the workings of a giro, information gathering at the centre via different means and bodies, rather than a 'big brother' or 'nanny' state.

While there are similarities, I think the difference is in just how much admin was done and the role of the military and the power of big business.

The French, Spanish and Portuguese I believe had a very centralised empires, though I could be wrong, though they did 'impose' their language and culture instead of having it layered on top.