Necron Codex

[toomanyarmies]

I was talking to Jervis at Games Day UK last month and he pretty much confirmed that necrons are getting a new codex, maybe during the middle of 2010. This got me and my mates debating just what should be in the new codex. Going through the fluff of the hobby, there isnt too much when it comes to units we havent seen or heard of before. One mate was telling me there is a metal worm thing in a Soul Drinkers novel. Ive yet to read it, but that would be a possible new edition to the necron forces. Personally i believe the necrons need a lighter tank option, better Pariahs (maybe as a troops choice), rending for flayed ones (why not eh), and tomb spyders that enhance your army. I think they could really go to town on the spyders and give them loads of quality options and new rules, if they do this, spyders should be crap in combat though. What do you lot out there think? I aint a necron player, but believe there is alot they can do with the codex when it comes out.

[Fowlplaychiken]

One posibility would be to overhaul the spiders. Make them significantly larger tank-like monstrous creatures (i.e. a mechanical carniflex). They are the littlest monstrous creatures in 40k as things stand, and very weak

[N0rdicNinja]

I would be perfectly happy if they just gave us more options on the units themselves instead of adding more units. In addition to being pretty gimped right now Necron players are also thrown down a very narrow corridor with regards to what they're allowed to play with. Allowing me to upgrade/customize my units would make me a very happy flesh-bag indeed.

With regards to the new Codex though, there have already been quite a few rumors spread throughout the interwebs such as the basic warrior being T5 with Slow And Purposeful, as well as multiple types of lords the will funkify your force org depending on which one you choose. And lets not forget the biggy, replacing WBB with FNP and getting rid of phase out!

These are of course all rumors, but I can dream damnit!

[Duke]

I would like them to feel like undead sisters... What I mean by that is

- they should only have a toughness of 3 with a 3+ save... Or a toughness of 4 with a 4+ save. This way they are easier to kill, but there would be more of them.
- No more C'tan... Keep the gods in the fluff, not on the table.
- Make Lords to be like vampire Count Lords, super supportive to the army and deadly in combat.
- No gauss rule, that is just dumb.
- More troops types, (Pariahs as troops is silly)
- Light tank option, somthing in between a destroyer and a Monolith.
- I would like to see Spiders to be super customizable...
- A ressurection Spider
- A long range hvy support spider
- A close range combat monster spider
- A swarm producing spider.

All in all I want them to feel like undead. This would mean that the Warriors are relativly easy to kill, but the Lords are super tough and their support units can be devestating. The army lists would be built more like Vampire Counts are right now (a few very powerful Lords, minnimum troops, Maxed Elites and the 'rest,' of the army would be summoned.)

Duke

[Aenir]

I would like them to feel like undead sisters... What I mean by that is

- they should only have a toughness of 3 with a 3+ save... Or a toughness of 4 with a 4+ save. This way they are easier to kill, but there would be more of them.
- No more C'tan... Keep the gods in the fluff, not on the table.
- Make Lords to be like vampire Count Lords, super supportive to the army and deadly in combat.
- No gauss rule, that is just dumb.
- More troops types, (Pariahs as troops is silly)
- Light tank option, somthing in between a destroyer and a Monolith.
- I would like to see Spiders to be super customizable...
- A ressurection Spider
- A long range hvy support spider
- A close range combat monster spider
- A swarm producing spider.

All in all I want them to feel like undead. This would mean that the Warriors are relativly easy to kill, but the Lords are super tough and their support units can be devestating. The army lists would be built more like Vampire Counts are right now (a few very powerful Lords, minnimum troops, Maxed Elites and the 'rest,' of the army would be summoned.)

Duke


I dont know, perhaps change guass from glancing on 6s get rid of that, and perhaps just run with 6s to always wound?

That makes MCs a bit easier to take down and such

[Dan-e]

i would like to see is the Heavy Destroyers and the Normal Destroyers units joined much like Attack Bikes are done in the SM or at least give the option of having a heavy join a normal unit of destroyers.

Wraths should get power weapons (maybe at cost of their Str)

flayed ones should be rending

Pariahs should be a HQ support squad that can be taken if you take a certain level lord (if the tier lord thing is true, aka not bottom rank, level 2 at least and the top get something even better... destroyer Pariahs? LOL too good to be but i can dream)

The options for limited subbing of troop choices, lords shouldn't let you field all flayed ones as troops just one or so units, same for a single group of destroyers & Immortals. The Necron army is done to be logical and machine but the lords still have persona's and i can only assume that some have their "favorite" servants but it wouldn't get around the Legion of Warriors the lords still uses.


Warriors should be tough enough not to be hidden and kept back on the field, i hate the concept of the imagery in 40k of army's of necrons marching forwards killing and yet in game they are hidden and kept babied. AKA change Phase out rules but it limits how you can play too much for Necron players.

[MarshalAdamar]

They need to fix WBB, it’s too complicated, and it needs to be replaced with FNP.

The Res orb should allow FNP against power weapons and ap1 and 2 weapons and weapons that inflict instant death OR

Pariahs are ok stat wise but the I3 is a killer, that combined with no WBB and the points cost! Make it a losing deal.

They should be I4; the one attack is ok since they have War scythes with gauss blaster that’s awesome. And they should be necrons, everything else I could take or leave.

Immortals are fine

Scarabs are ok though to get more people to field them they should have DF for free.

Lords need more something, either more army wide buffs or more personal buffs. Even with S5 T5 and three attacks he's still not all that great. Not when relic blade wielding space marines come calling. He needs to have access to more points of war gear I think so you can make him into what you want. And please fix the War scythe for the lords; it’s a freakin assault 2 gauss blaster for the pariahs but not for the lords. I cry foul!

Tomb spyders need something maybe army wide buffs? I’m more in favor of making them like a tech priest but for necrons?? Any unit that he is in base contact with can resurrect one unit of the same type the unit cannot have more units than it started with ability works on a 4+ 5+? Too powerful maybe.

There are picks of a concept vehicle a barge with a destroyer like necron on the back as a pilot that looked really cool, lots of potential there.

All necrons need to be Fearless or at least fearless in the assault to fix their TERRIBLE close combat.

Wraiths need to be multi wound or something, and their claws need rending or to be power weapons, they're just too few of them in a unit to do much good.

Flayed ones NEED rending they just suck compared to regular assault marines, maybe reroll scatter dice when deep striking.

Destroyers are great the way they are

Heavy destroyers need something, they seem way too expensive to me for one wound models

Get rid of the C'tan they're cool but over the top for a regular game, but then again Logan Grimnar costs as much as a land raider!

Monoliths are pretty good the way they are, super slow and super hard to kill! I like the deep strike and ability to bring in reserves, I would increase cost to Land raider level and let them use the “portal” in addition to the Whip and the GF projectors maybe.

And the Warriors in addition to being fearless in the assault, FNP then need slow and purposeful so they can do what the fluff says that do “March forward implacably and shoot stuff!), which you can’t do now! Then warriors would be useful again.

[Ironwinds]

Weaker warriors? They are suppose to be impossible to kill, that is kind of the entire plot for the army. They should be as hard to kill as DG IMO.

Actually lets base them off something very similar, a plague marine. Should probably have better shooting, and be worse in close combat than a plague marine. Make them T4(5) so lascannons still instant kill unless there is a res orb nearby.


Allowing me to upgrade/customize my units would make me a very happy flesh-bag indeed.


I think warriors should be very basic, and uncustomizable, no upgrades for warriors. But.... make tomb spyders not monstrous creatures and allow them to join squads of necrons. The spyder grants some bonus to the warriors(ex. one necron can re-roll his WBB), and is a good hth unit to support them in assault. However tomb spyder still needs PW and 2d6 against tanks- there is some more AT. Drawback.... tomb spyders can't teleport so to teleport you have to leave the spyder behind. Tomb spyders with squads can not create scarabs, they are to busy rebuilding necrons, but when they are on their own they can create scarabs.

Pariahs need to be elite, if you removed them and flayed ones from elite all that leaves are immortals. Make them elites but make them elites, make them useful. They are ok in shooting, great against psykers, and good against 'some' units in hth. 2-3 attacks, gain necron rule or FNP whatever the new thing will be. Leave the psyker rules how they are.


C'tan, keep them around but beef them up some(they are kind of bleh for 'gods') and make them Apoc units. The NB should have no problem taking a greater demon, even the apoc greater demons. Make him a gargantuan creature, he is already probably the nastiest monstrous creature that is not a gargantuan. And make the deceiver's ability more like Lash. Lash makes no sense for EC, it makes all the sense in the world for the deceiver.

[MarshalAdamar]

I like the idea Ironwinds has of Spyders being troop supports. Make them more like Wraith lords (in practice) remove the MC rule. hmmm I like it.

The Pariahs do need to be elites, I go back and forth on them, in the end the fact that they are not necrons (no WBB) and the points cost is the killer. They are not that much harder to kill than a regular marine unit for the most part certianly not TWICE as hard.

[Nabterayl]

I would like them to feel like undead sisters... What I mean by that is

- they should only have a toughness of 3 with a 3+ save... Or a toughness of 4 with a 4+ save. This way they are easier to kill, but there would be more of them.
This is something I struggle with - necrons to me are less like undead and more like terminators. What I mean by that is that I feel like they should have some aspects of the undead - the slow and implacable advance of the horde - but should also feel like they're impossible to kill.


- No gauss rule, that is just dumb.
The gauss rule in its current incarnation is dumb, but I do like the idea of gauss weapons. It's been a long established part of necron lore that necron weapons are advanced beyond all others. The trouble with gauss weaponry in its current incarnation is that it doesn't feel that way at all. Right now, an army of wraithguard feels more "necron" to me than an army of necron.

I know necron players tend to hate phase out, but I actually wouldn't mind keeping it if that was the price of getting an army that can field a relatively large number of tough-to-kill infantry with badass guns.

[Duke]

@ Nab: I like the Toughness 3, 3+ save FNP. Warrior. I don't like we'll be back, I think it would be a nightmare if Tomb Spiders could "raise," Warriors like Vampire Counts can do with Skellies in fantasy.

I am completly against 'getting up,' against power weapons and ap1/ 2 that is just sad.

get rid of Phase out... Unless they make Warriors SUPER hard to kill phase out should not be allowed. (I.E. Toughness 5, 3+, 5++, FNP)

no allowing partical whip AND teleporting, I like how the player is forced to pick one.

Duke

[Herald of Nurgle]

I think the Spyders should simply be like an Apothecary, only longer lasting (d3 ignored saves per turn would be awesome) that works in CC.

Instead of Fearless, Necrons need to ignore No Retreat! as well.

[Nabterayl]

get rid of Phase out... Unless they make Warriors SUPER hard to kill phase out should not be allowed. (I.E. Toughness 5, 3+, 5++, FNP)

Sure, but I'd accept Phase Out if it meant necron players could buy warriors that were T5 3+ FNP with a 24" S4 AP4 assault 2 Rending weapon for the price of a tac marine, or something along those lines, you know?

[DarkLink]

I heard an interesting fix for phase out and sweeping advance problems somewhere (I think in the homebreew Necron codex thread here, actually).

Basically, Phase out would do two things.

1. If necrons are sweeping advanced, the models that would normally be destroyed are instead placed into reserve and deepstrike back in later.

2. If the overall necron army is reduced to 25%, the army phases out and goes away.

Don't know if that's the best solution, but I thought it was interesting, solving one of the Necron's main weaknesses, but keeping another to maintain balance.



Anyways, they need to replace WBB with FNP. WBB is just a complicated version of FNP. Any attempts to streamline WBB will ultimately result in another, overcomplicated FNP clone, as much as some Necron players don't want to accept that. FNP is a perfectly good, standardized core rule (which isn't as common as I've heard some people have complaine about).

Making Gauss rending (maybe vs vehicles only?) is the simplest solution I've seen for it's problems.


Aside from a few of those basic rule revisions, improvment come down to the units themselves, and I don't feel qualified suggesting changes to current Necron units, or making up new ones. Don't know the codex well enough, and don't play against it often enough.

[chapter master 454]

Personally, necrons are currently under a little bit of the nerf bat. Our gauss rule got hit hard and with most of our units being less than what they should be, here is a list of things I feel necrons DO need since they are the unkillable dead.

T5 is a big thing, sure makes lasguns near useless against us but lets face it: We're pure regenerative metal!
WBB and FNP and practically the same thing so I ain't bothered
Lords I've heard are getting tiers now with a ton load more upgrades so I'm happy
We're needing a littler tank, and I've heard rumours of a strange light transport tank...interesting
Pariahs are needing something to keep them in the game, so personally they need some invunerables
Scarabs are fine, the ultimate and dragging ICs down after their squad got gaussed to death
Another problem is Heavy destroyers, considering in fluff a destroyer put a hole in a land raider with no problem I'd like to see destroyers get a good considerable power boost
Tomb spyders are in need of some love too, I feel necrons should ether get an improved FNP/WBB roll from them being nearby and/or get a re-roll for it. Also keep their current 'put you with them' rule too.
Lord gets scythe, pariahs get one with blaster built in, what did the lord miss the sale?
You can remove the C'tans from the game but give me some form of C'tan power boost!

[Scoota]

How about keep the phase out aspect of the army, but make all of the models cheaper? What's the point of having an expensive army with a minimal body count that disappears when 75% of the models (well, Necrons) are killed? Why not have LOTS of models... but kill off that 75%, and then they all go. Maybe give less units the Necron rule.

I've played against a few Necron armies, and I don't knwo if it's the players or the codex, but there isn't a lot of imagination that goes into some of the army builds. Give these armies and excuse to take lots of different and versatile units.

Make it so... or we won't be back.

[Ironwinds]

A big one they need is fearless. With the new cc rules if you loose cc by a couple models you are screwed, even wiih Ld10. Now I had mentioned letting a tomb spyder be a troop support unit and it have some ability that enhances the warriors ability to stay alive. Several of you seemed to like that. Well... what about the tomb spyder allows the necrons to ignore the no retreat rule. That is a good benefit without being overdone. Re-rolling FNP saves, ignoring so many wounds, or getting imporved FNP save(get up on a 3 I presume) seem a bit much for an army that is already really hard to kill. Especially if they keep res orbs. If a tomb spyder did all that it would have to be outragous expensive. Now granting the unit no casulties from no retreat makes it an even better hth upgrade, and shows how it helps to put the necrons back together, but its also a small enough bonus that it wouldn't rack up its pricetag.

Guass weapons getting rending. Makes sense, and actually I think rending against everything would be ok, not just vehicles. Lets face it, all necrons really have is short range firepower, against some things... IG it is nasty, against other things... terminators all it does is scratch the paint. Necrons have a severe lack of ap2 weaponry, I think guass=rending would fix that quite nice. It will make marines cry... the same way a couple of plasma guns make necrons cry. 10 guass flayers(20 shots), do the math, 13 hits, 2.22 rend, 2.22 dead marines or necrons. Marine squad with 2 plasma guns(4 shots), 2.66 hits, after rolling to wound 2.2222 dead marines or necrons. So just comparing rending to plasma they end up being equal, it clears up the warriors lack of weapon options, they really have a jack of all trades gun.

Guass after rending- str 5-7 against tanks, auto wounds, no save.
Plasma- str 7 against tanks, against most things wounds 84% of the time, no save.

Since it doesn't overheat mass guass is slightly better except against vehicles, but really... shouldn't it be. If guass was just straight rending 10 warriors is equal to 10 marines w/ two plasma guns in shooting, and since they are primarily a shooting army they need to be 'at least' that good.

Oh and guass rending is also good for showing how a heavy guass cannon can shoot through a LR, possible 18 armor penetration :).

[MarshalAdamar]

I could go for that, I don't mind phase out too much but I would make it small part of the equation making just about everything a Necron.

I think that the Gauss special rule could be easily remedied. In the old rules you need a 6 to glance and another 6 to destroy the vehicle sooooooooooo. Just give gauss weapons a +1 on the damage table and it’s fixed. The weapon is strength 4 so even against AV 10 vehicles you can still only score a glance so the +1 (for warriors) doesn't count on the penetrating table. And for units like heavy destroyers and destroyer’s even immortals to some small degree they get a little better at taking down vehicles with concentrated fire. Which makes up for the fact that you have waste an entire units shooting at the target and you have no other anti tank ability outside of heavy destroyers.

I personally like the gauss rule because it’s so fluffy!

I agree too about the terminator comparison, I think the troops should be hard to kill. In fact they should be the hardest troop unit in the 40k universe to put down. I would probably up the points cost give them T5, fearless in assault, slow and purposeful, and FNP

Which would make them just about like they were in 4th with the addition of T5 and slow and purposeful.

Before you had LD10 so you almost never ran from combat, now you run like a little girl when assaulted by a unit of kroot. WBB is just a complicated FNP

[DarkLink]

How about keep the phase out aspect of the army, but make all of the models cheaper? What's the point of having an expensive army with a minimal body count that disappears when 75% of the models (well, Necrons) are killed? Why not have LOTS of models... but kill off that 75%, and then they all go. Maybe give less units the Necron rule.

I've played against a few Necron armies, and I don't knwo if it's the players or the codex, but there isn't a lot of imagination that goes into some of the army builds. Give these armies and excuse to take lots of different and versatile units.

Make it so... or we won't be back.

It's the codex. There are a limited number of good option in the codex, and those limited number of options work best in one of only a handful of lists. You can have variety, but your list will suffer from it.

Daemonhunters are even worse, though. We get 4 good units in the whole codex:
1. Power Armor Grey Knights
2. Terminators (including our HQ)
3. Land Raiders
4. Dreadnoughts
None of the other stuff is any good, though somtimes you need some of the other stuff (like Stormtroopers with meltaguns for anti-tank)

[Lord Anubis]

If I had to make a guess, I would bet the phase out rule goes away. Simplest fix here.

It was created for a very fluffy reason which no longer exists within the fluff. The Necrons were originally a small-in-numbers army that would only be encountered in raiding parties and would phase out to conserve resources and hide evidence of their existence. Since the last codex brought them fully into the 40K universe, they're not hiding anymore and there's no longer a reason to believe they need to conserve resources. It is now believable that a Necon army would fight tol the last ma... well, the last metal skeleton.

This also immediately nixes most other complaints about the army. Necrons suddenly aren't that "fragile," they're just as tough as Space Marines (tougher, for many of their units) and they can get back up. Non-Necron units are now viable because they're not "subtracting" from anything.

Even gauss weapons are viable again, with no tweaks, because the Necron player doesn't have to keep his troops held back. You can have mass squads of twenty warriors stepping out of monoliths to rapid-fire at a land raider. Yes, it's harder to stop a vehicle with glances, but when every ranged weapon in your army can cause glances, it's easy to make them start stacking up.

I would also lean against We'll Be Back being downgraded to Feel No Pain. They're actually two different rules, and the math hammer folks could give exact numbers on how much better WBB is than FNP.

With the Space Wolf codex, it's also really hard to fall back on the "no, they're streamiling and simplifying everything" argument. Chaos Marines and Dark Angels took the simplification beating and every codex since has fallen back to special rules for the army and for characters in the army. We'll Be Back is a special and unique rule for the Necrons that gives them a very unique flavor. There's no reason or rationale to remove it.

Just my own thoughts, as someone whose first Necron army was all metal and had skeletons in flying lawnchairs. :)

[Nabterayl]

I would also lean against We'll Be Back being downgraded to Feel No Pain. They're actually two different rules, and the math hammer folks could give exact numbers on how much better WBB is than FNP.
There isn't a single good math hammer comparison, actually; you need to make assumptions about the tactical situation and take it on a scenario-by-scenario basis. For instance, let's say you have a block of ten warriors with no spyder or other warriors in range, and all ten get knocked down. You'll be wishing you had FNP then, because you just lost ten WBB rolls, even if you have a resurrection orb in range.

On the other hand, if you're just taking plasma fire and your entire unit doesn't get knocked down, WBB is a lot better than FNP, since you still get your post-save rolls.

On the third hand, if you're going to get assaulted, it might be better to have FNP than WBB, because depending on the nature of the assault, it might be advantageous to have more models standing when the assault hits you.

On the fourth hand, if you're definitely going to get assaulted and lose, it might be better to have WBB, because once the Sweeping Advance is over the shot models might get back up (assuming there's other models or a spyder in range).

And so forth.

[MarshalAdamar]

Now I have to rethink my whole stance on WBB vs. FNP!

THANKS ALOT!

[Nabterayl]

It gets even more complicated when you consider other changes they might or might not make to Necron CC prowess. For instance, nowadays you might prefer WBB because necrons are so likely to lose close combat. But suppose they made warriors T5 - that makes them a lot less likely to lose combat, which shifts things in favor of FNP (though of course how much it shifts things in favor of FNP depends on what you're getting assaulted by).

Personally I have no problem with WBB as it is, with the exception of the need to have other models nearby. I mean, even the codex calls it "self-repair," and the image I always got was more Borg-like re-knitting than borrowing raw material from nearby necrons. And why exactly is it that I can bolt down ten warriors, and they stay down for good, but as long as I only bolt the same one warrior out of the ten he could potentially get back up twenty times? I don't get, from a fluff perspective, why a warrior can "self-repair" as long as there's another operational warrior nearby, but not if he's alone. Or why a tomb spyder can fix a warrior only if there's another warrior on the battlefield ... even if that warrior is on the other side of the field.

The "stand up" mechanic doesn't bother me (and Yarrick has it too, which suggests they haven't tossed it in the dust bin of game design history quite yet), since the repaired models are automatically placed in coherency with the nearest eligible unit, rather than standing up where they are. This avoids any potential problems of self-repairing models standing up in weird places. Flavor-wise I could go either way on the issue of stand up next turn vs. make the roll immediately, and as I outlined above, I don't think one mechanic is clearly advantageous compared to the other.

[Lord Anubis]

There isn't a single good math hammer comparison, actually; you need to make assumptions about the tactical situation and take it on a scenario-by-scenario basis.

I would disagree, respectfully. You do have grounds to say Feel No Pain is better because it doesn't rely on other models being within X inches (where X is dependent on models, Tomb Spiders, etc).

However, Feel No Pain also requires you to make far more dice rolls. With FNP, if the enemy knocks you down, you get right back up... and they get to knock you down again. And again. And again. Simple math--rolling more dice means a better chance to fail a roll. If a model is forced to make three FNP rolls in a round (not ridiculous against horde armies), its chance of survival has effectively dropped to less than 13%.

With We'll Be Back, if the enemy knocks you down, you don't get back up until your turn. The enemy can't stack wounds on you and force you to roll again and again. A model has better odds of surviving one dice roll than three (or more). The only time it becomes a "lesser" rule is if the entire squad is wiped out, and even then it's conditional if there are other squads or a spider nearby.

Speaking of which, I would guess the "nearby" rule is what keeps the Necrons from being too powerful. How often can you put down an entire squad with weapons that prevent WBB? That would be the only way to stop them if they didn't have the range issue. Consider how tough a Plague Marine army is with FNP, and they're dealing with the multiple dice throws I mentioned above. If they didn't have to deal with all those extra rolls... :eek:

;)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Personally I'd like to see everything stay exactly as it is, except everything in the army gets +1 added to its toughness against all attacks. The Necron Warrior, for example, would be T5 base but cost the same as now...but with an improved gauss rule: Something like if 3 shots hit a tank with a roll of 6 on their pen rolls, it should count as one penetrating hit against the vehicle no matter the armor.

As a way of balancing the toughness thing, armor ignoring attacks or AP1 weapons would reduce necron's toughness by 1 when wounding them.

Everything besides warriors should have a 2+ save.

That's what I'd do, anyway. Hmm...maybe it'd be a fun project for me use my designer skills to create a new necron list?

I'd probably also make We'll Be Back automatic. (I bet that will get some jeers!)

You blast the necrons, they break apart, but then during the next turn's shooting phase, they get up and move into coherency with other downed models within 6" who are also getting back up. If there are none, then they will re-attach to their squad. These models won't be able to move because I would make this occur at the start of the shooting phase, but they could then run.

Would be pretty fun to face an army of necrons that is literally as unkillable as they are in the fluff...

[DarkLink]

I will go right out and say that I hate WBB outright.

FNP is fine, but I once killed my opponent's Necron Lord 6 times in one game, only for him to make his WBB save every single time.

I feel that FNP is a much more balanced rule than WBB (in addition to being simpler). Ways to negate WBB are less common than ways to negate FNP (thanks to resurection orbs). WBB is also significantly better than FNP insomuch as you cannot force saves on Necrons.

There are two ways to overcome a good save. 1: High AP stuff. Resurection orbs pretty much mitigate this, at least with regards to WBB. 2: Weight of fire. WBB also ignores this, as it is only possible to cause one wound per turn (on a 1 wound model, anyways).

Now in 5th, changes to sweeping advances and combat resolution has led to more ways to kill Necrons by denying WBB, but if you fix those, you go back to a WBB with no good way to get around it.

It's not so much that it is a broken ability, just that it isn't fun to play against. At least with FNP, when I fail to kill your unit I can redirect a different unit to try and kill it all over again, instead of watching the necron player make all of his saves and completely ignore the small amount of damage I just did.

I know Necrons are supposed to be tough to kill, but it gets to a point where it just isn't fun for the Necron's opponent. I really do not enjoy playing against Necrons, regardless of whether I'm winning or not.

I feel FNP is a more balanced rule, one that doesn't create absolute nightmares with regards to certain aspects of the rules.

[Nabterayl]

I would disagree, respectfully. You do have grounds to say Feel No Pain is better because it doesn't rely on other models being within X inches (where X is dependent on models, Tomb Spiders, etc).

However, Feel No Pain also requires you to make far more dice rolls. ...
I won't disagree about that, but you can't quantify the difference without making up a scenario, and the quantification will only hold for that scenario. A model has a 13% chance to roll 4+ three times in a row ... but that doesn't make WBB 37% better than FNP. It only makes it 37% better than FNP if the model is hit three times, if those three wounds would allow FNP in the first place, if the model was eligible to make a WBB save in the first place, etc. That was the point I was making.

[Melissia]

I prefer WBB to FNP if only because it requires you to really think about how you build and play your army. FNP's simplicity is also what kinda turns it off for giving it to them for me.

[DarkLink]

I won't disagree about that, but you can't quantify the difference without making up a scenario, and the quantification will only hold for that scenario. A model has a 13% chance to roll 4+ three times in a row ... but that doesn't make WBB 37% better than FNP. It only makes it 37% better than FNP if the model is hit three times, if those three wounds would allow FNP in the first place, if the model was eligible to make a WBB save in the first place, etc. That was the point I was making.

Well, WBB is, generally, quite a bit better than FNP. You can only ever force a maximum of one WBB save per turn, while you can force an unlimited number of FNP saves. If you only force one save, then WBB and FNP come out even. If you force more than one save, WBB is much better, because it simply ignores each wound past the first (or at least the first wound to kill the model, in the case of multi-wound necrons).

As for situations in which you can ignore either of the saves, WBB still wins. It is much, much easier to ignore FNP than WBB, thanks primarily to res orbs.

The only reasonably common situation that I can think of FNP being better than WBB is in the event of a sweeping advance. In combat, you still get FNP, but if you get swept you don't get a chance to roll your WBB.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I am of the mind that WBB doesn't need simplifying, it needs quite the opposite: it needs to be an incredibly cool rule that makes the other guy panic.

The necrons are not a very tactical army. In books and stories throughout the black library they behave rather stupidly in some cases; there is one short story I read where every day at a certain time the exact same number of necrons appeared and walked the exact same path to the exact same places, and the Imperials had simply set up gun servitors to eradicate them each time. In other places, they use the clockwork appearances of the necrons as training drills for new troops.

It'd be pretty cool if this idea were incorporated into the army somehow, to balance out the immense power on the other side of the spectrum for them.

I still think that We'll Be Back should be automatic, but cause the unit to lose a phase and be slowed down. Phase out could balance this too; whenever the Necron unit has to take a morale check it could phase out. The monolith or lord could confer a radius with a re-roll to help negate this (I'd prefer the monolith...it'd make it more useful).

I'd also probably make it so that monoliths can't get a "destroyed - explodes" result unless the person has already first gotten a "destroyed - wrecked" result. This would be a good way of making it so models in reserve can still arrive from the mono's door, even if its inactive, and would force armies to pay more attention to the thing as well.

[DarkLink]

I am of the mind that WBB doesn't need simplifying, it needs quite the opposite: it needs to be an incredibly cool rule that makes the other guy panic.

The necrons are not a very tactical army. In books and stories throughout the black library they behave rather stupidly in some cases; there is one short story I read where every day at a certain time the exact same number of necrons appeared and walked the exact same path to the exact same places, and the Imperials had simply set up gun servitors to eradicate them each time. In other places, they use the clockwork appearances of the necrons as training drills for new troops.

It'd be pretty cool if this idea were incorporated into the army somehow, to balance out the immense power on the other side of the spectrum for them.

I still think that We'll Be Back should be automatic, but cause the unit to lose a phase and be slowed down. Phase out could balance this too; whenever the Necron unit has to take a morale check it could phase out. The monolith or lord could confer a radius with a re-roll to help negate this (I'd prefer the monolith...it'd make it more useful).

I'd also probably make it so that monoliths can't get a "destroyed - explodes" result unless the person has already first gotten a "destroyed - wrecked" result. This would be a good way of making it so models in reserve can still arrive from the mono's door, even if its inactive, and would force armies to pay more attention to the thing as well.

Only if Necrons become extremely expensive. WBB is powerful enough as it is (it's phase out and initiative 2 that're the problem).

I wouldn't be scared of Necrons that literally can't be killed. I'd be frustrated. Playing against Necrons as it is is frustrating enough, and I would not ever play against Necrons if they automatically passed their WBB or something rediculous like that.



On the other hand, I like the idea of Necron units Phasing out when they fail Leadership tests. Find a way to balance that, and it would be more fluffy than the current phase out rule.

[RogueGarou]

When Necrons were introduced in 2nd Ed they were pretty tough and if exploited almost unstoppable for most armies. Tyrannids were the only army I ever saw that stood up to them and it was all because of close combat that did not rely on special weapons. A quick trip down Memory Lane to give some ideas. Necrons came out in White Dwarf, about a decade before the Blood Angels tried the same idea, but were very limited. You had a Lord, Necron Warriors, Destroyers, and Scarabs. They had a version of We'll Be Back and they had a Gauss rule. And, most importantly, they had a nasty, NASTY disruption rule. The disruption rule they had back then caused several bad things to happen. First, technology broke down within the radius of the field. Targeters didn't work, weapons failed, bad times within six inches. Because of the disruption, weapons became very inaccurate. For every Necron within six inches, you had a -1 to shooting. Also, any powered weapons stopped working so no power fist or sword bonuses. Scarabs also could attach themselves to vehicles and for every Scarab attached to a vehicle facing the armor on that facing was reduced by 3. Since the Scarabs were going to be in the line of fire of their own weapons and the explosion of vehicles they were attacking, they had toughness 8.

Scarabs also had Flight. If I recall correctly, this doubled their movement distance. You buy two or three Necron squad boxes and a Lord and you have a 1500 point army. Your Scarabs line up at the front of your line. They are small creatures and are tough to hit or even see at range. Turn 1 they run to double their move and fly to double it again. Turn 1 or certainly by Turn 2, Scarabs are in the enemy line. Shooting is now ineffective against them since the firing troops have a -6 or something to hit them. Most models are only strength 4 and with no power weapon bonuses can not hurt them. If they want to hurt a tank, they latch onto it and it now can't hit anything AND it's armor value of 22 is reduced to a 4. Gauss rifles handle Leman Russ tanks quite nicely at this point. Heavy Flamers were the only thing that could reliably hit them at close range and have a chance of hurting them. The Necron army now just marches across the table pretty safely and massacres the enemy without worrying about Phase Out. It was a powerful army and great for beginning players since they had a good chance to win and did not have to spend much money to get started in the game.

Tyrannids were their foil since none of their bonuses came from technology-based weapons. Genestealers for the win, folks. Everybody else was in for a tough and probably one-sided fight.

Bringing back some version of those aspects would make the Necrons very tough but bringing it all back would be almost undeniably broken. We only have two Necron players in our local gaming group and neither of them has ever set a Scarab base on the table that I know of. Ever. OK, so the Scarabs might need a bump to make them playable. I think with the 4+ cover save they could grant under the 5th Ed rules, Scarabs could be great moving cover for a Necron army but I guess no one else is doing that. So, how about giving them just a really crazy movement like a turbo boosting jetbike? That's not really game breaking but you could wind up spamming the little guys and giving most if not all of the army a 4+ cover save. As my Thousand Sons can attest lately, a 4+ cover save is not as strong as it used to be since practically everyone has it now. You might even give the Scarabs an anti-vehicle attack if they self-destruct akin to the old rule. Perhaps a weaker melta-bomb type attack? Scarabs assault a vehicle, it hits the rear and the attack is at strength 4 or maybe 5 with 2D6 added? An average role will penetrate most vehicles rear armor and glance almost everything else with S4.

The Gauss rule was always something that I thought added character to the Necron weapons. I would hate to see it go away. In 3E/4E you could destroy a vehicle with a glancing hit. One of our Necron players never grasped this and would not shoot his Gauss rifles at tanks. I tried for years to remind him of this and he still let Land Raider Crusaders roll into him without even fighting back. With the changes in the rules now, you could at least reduce a vehicles ability to shoot at you which is still nice but maybe Gauss needs a little bump. What if it added +1 to the damage chart role? That might be too much, though, as it could allow a squad of Necron Warriors the chance to Glance and then to destroy any vehicle on the role of a 6. Two 6's in a row is tough but with 10-20 chances a turn, it is certainly worth betting on to smash a Land Raider. So maybe it could be a +1 on the damage roll if the armor value you are shooting is under 12?

Another possible change would be to give the option to buy a Disruption Field like the old one. Any squad within six inches of a UNIT, not individual models, would lower their Ballistic Skill by one total. If it didn't stack, that would keep it from being too over the top. Plus, if it were limited to only certain units it might keep it from being spammed to death.

We'll Be Back could use an overhaul, though. I think replacing it with Feel No Pain would be fine but barring that, it should be re-worked in some way. Since GW seems to be going for the USR and not as much for the every Codex has its own rule route, Feel No Pain just kind of fits.

Those are just some thoughts I had when I looked at this thread. A few tweaks and some under-used units are worth playing, maybe even a core unit for some players. No new molds have to be created by GW, just a new book. Fairly low cost alternative to a whole line roll-out, I think. Plus no new units to create so the testing might even run a bit shorter.

There are a couple of things I would like to see, though. Pariahs get the Necron rule so they count toward Phase Out; that might make them show up on the table more often and the Feel No Pain almost certainly would mean they show up ore often. Flayed Ones need the option of having a power weapon. Independent Characters are not really a Necron thing but having one or two Flayed Ones the option of having Power Weapons would give them a huge boost.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I started working on a Necron Homebrew document, just to keep my own designer muscles flexing. Here's what I'm looking at right now.


Pretty much all the models have Slow and Purposeful, Relentless, and Stubborn rules
I'm not sure if it's necessary, but in place of Stubborn I may place a new rule, I called it Silent as the Grave, where basically the Necron army is so quiet it is terrifying to the enemy, and the enemy gets a -2 combat resolution modifier because he is unaware of whether or not he's actually killed the Necrons he downed
Living Metal infantry all basically always get their armor saves unless it's an AP1, Instand Death, or Power Weapon attack. I wanted these guys to be the most durable enemies in the game.
Living Metal on vehicles is just -1 on the damage chart and immunity to melta.
The Necron Lord has a lot of powerful defensive abilities from his artifacts. The chronometron, for example, is a shooting attack that auto-pins an enemy unit.
Changed WBB to 'Self Repair': "Whenever a Necron is wounded and would be removed from play, place the model on its side or replace it with a suitable casualty marker. At the start of the following turn's shooting phase, roll a die for each casualty. These models will rise on a roll of 2+, and must link back to the nearest unit of the same model type if there is one within 6”. If there isn't a unit of the same type nearby, then the models will only rise on a roll of 5+, and instead become part of their own unit with other like models within 12” who have succeeded in self repairing. If a 1 is rolled for the Self Repair attempt, then the model is removed as a casualty." This gives a possibility of failure.
If a model is damaged really badly, by one of the armor negating bits above, then it can only self repair on a roll of 5+. These models repair into battle damaged necrons that half their stats halved.
Units with broken necrons are scary and count as having defensive grenades
Destroyers are gonna have a lot of weapon options, and the heavy destroyer will be a sergeant style model for the destroyer unit. Any destroyer can become them, and can carry a variety of weapons.


Whole bunch of crazy stuff. My plan is to dump a bunch of BS rules into it then playtest and take away what seems way too good, so the above probably will seem pretty severe...

[DarkLink]

I started working on a Necron Homebrew document, just to keep my own designer muscles flexing. Here's what I'm looking at right now.


Pretty much all the models have Slow and Purposeful, Relentless, and Stubborn rules
I'm not sure if it's necessary, but in place of Stubborn I may place a new rule, I called it Silent as the Grave, where basically the Necron army is so quiet it is terrifying to the enemy, and the enemy gets a -2 combat resolution modifier because he is unaware of whether or not he's actually killed the Necrons he downed
Living Metal infantry all basically always get their armor saves unless it's an AP1, Instand Death, or Power Weapon attack. I wanted these guys to be the most durable enemies in the game.
Living Metal on vehicles is just -1 on the damage chart and immunity to melta.
The Necron Lord has a lot of powerful defensive abilities from his artifacts. The chronometron, for example, is a shooting attack that auto-pins an enemy unit.
Changed WBB to 'Self Repair': "Whenever a Necron is wounded and would be removed from play, place the model on its side or replace it with a suitable casualty marker. At the start of the following turn's shooting phase, roll a die for each casualty. These models will rise on a roll of 2+, and must link back to the nearest unit of the same model type if there is one within 6”. If there isn't a unit of the same type nearby, then the models will only rise on a roll of 5+, and instead become part of their own unit with other like models within 12” who have succeeded in self repairing. If a 1 is rolled for the Self Repair attempt, then the model is removed as a casualty." This gives a possibility of failure.
If a model is damaged really badly, by one of the armor negating bits above, then it can only self repair on a roll of 5+. These models repair into battle damaged necrons that half their stats halved.
Units with broken necrons are scary and count as having defensive grenades
Destroyers are gonna have a lot of weapon options, and the heavy destroyer will be a sergeant style model for the destroyer unit. Any destroyer can become them, and can carry a variety of weapons.


Whole bunch of crazy stuff. My plan is to dump a bunch of BS rules into it then playtest and take away what seems way too good, so the above probably will seem pretty severe...

Have you ever heard of a thing called "balance"? It's pretty nice, you should check it out sometime.

If you take away all the rules that are too good, none of the rules above (except for the S&P and Stubborn, and the Destroyer options part) will be left.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I'm a game design hobbyist and I have designed many rulesets from the ground up.

Did you notice none of these things have point costs listed...there's also no statlines. I was thinking Ld9, initiative 1, and WS3 across the board.

My design tenet is to make it "feel" right and adjust accordingly. This is the technique employed by GW for the last few codex releases -- you know, the ones being hailed as the best the game's ever seen (Wolves + Guard)?

[MarshalAdamar]

Some interesting stuff.

I like the Necrons they were one of my first armies.

I’ve seen a lot of talk about what would make a good Necron army list so I though I would like to take a stab at it.

Necrons should all be LD 10; fearless and Relentless or Slow and purposefull just so they had the ability to sweeping advance.

Gauss weapons seem to be very powerful in the fluff so I would like to keep that way

Gauss special rule: (Counts as AP1 on a roll of a 6 & inflicts a glancing hit on vehicles on an armor penetration roll of a 6)

This way the gauss rule goes back to the way it was in 4th, 6’s to glance and 6 to wreck a vehicle for the basic warriors but it makes the heavy destoryers a little better than las cannons because if you roll a 6 to hit that hit counts as AP1 so +1 on the damage chart. Not as good as say melta but better than what they have now.

Necron Lord WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 5 W: 3 I: 4 A: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Staff of light S:5 AP:3 Range: 18” Assault 3 Counts as a power weapon
Special rules: Fearless; Feel no pain(or something like it), eternal warrior
Option for a Warscythe with built in guass blaster

Flayed One WS: 4 BS: 0 S: 4 T: 5 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 4-10 Flayed Ones.
Unit Type: Infantry.
War Gear: Claws.
Special rules: Fearless; Feel no pain (or something like it); Drop pod rules for their deep strike, Infiltrate, Terrifying visage, Rending

Immortal WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 6 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 5-10 Immortals.
Unit Type: Infantry.
War Gear: Gauss blaster.
Gauss blaster STR:5 AP:4 Range: 24” assault 2
Special rules: Gauss; Fearless; feel no pain (or something like it)

Pariah WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 6 W: 1 I: 3 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 4-10 Pariahs.
Unit Type: Infantry.
War Gear: Warscythe with built-in gauss blaster.
War scythe with built in gauss blaster STR:5 AP:4 Range: 24” assault 2
Special rules: Gauss; Fearless; soulless

Warrior WS: 4 BS: 3 S:4 T: 5 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 10-20 Warriors.
Unit Type: Infantry.
War Gear: Gauss flayer.
Gauss flayer STR:4 AP:4 24” rapid fire
Special rules: Gauss; Fearless; Relentless; feel no pain (or something like it)

Destroyer WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 6 W: 1 I: 4 A: 4 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 3-5 Destroyers.
Unit Type: Jet bike.
War Gear: Gauss cannon.
Gauss cannon STR:6 AP:4 36” assault 3
Special rules: Gauss; Fearless; feel no pain (or something like it)

Wraith WS: 4 BS: 0 S: 6 T: 6 W: 1 I: 4 A: 4 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+i
Unit Composition: 1-3 Wraiths.
Unit Type: Jet bike.
War Gear: Claws
Special rules: Fearless; Feel no pain (or something like it); Deep strike, Infiltrate, Rending, move through cover, Wraith flight.

Scarab Swarm WS: 2 BS: 0 S: 3 T: 3 W: 3 I: 3 A: 2 Ld: 10 Sv: 5+
Unit Composition: 3-10 swarm bases.
War Gear: None.

Heavy Destroyer WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 6 W: 1 I: 3 A:1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 1-3 Heavy Destroyers.
Unit Type: Jet bike.
War Gear: Heavy gauss cannon.
Heavy Gauss cannon STR:9 AP:2 36” assault 1
Special rules: Gauss; Fearless; feel no pain (or something like it)

Tomb Spyder WS: 2 BS: 4 S: 6 T: 7 W: 3 I: 2 A:3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Tomb Spyder.
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature.
War Gear: Claws.
Option for: Particle projector STR:6 AP:2 12” assault 2 (sort of like a plasma pistol)
Special rules: Fearless; feel no pain (or something like it); plus its normal rules.

Monolith BS Front Armour Side Armour Rear Armour
4 14 14 14
Type: Tank, Skimmer.
War gear: Gauss flux arc.
Transport Capacity: Special.
Special Rules: Living Metal; Ponderous; Deep Strike; Gauss Flux Arc Projectors; Power Matrix.
Guass flux arc projectors: STR:5 AP:4 36” heavy D6 to all units with in 12”
Particle whip: STR: 10 AP: 1 Large blast

I think that the Monolith should be able to move and fire all weapons.

That’s the small tweaks just some small adjustments to the special rules and the stats. I've not put enough thought into what rules I would create or alter dramatically.

[Maelstorm]

Nooooo FNP! The list of ranged Space Marine weapons that will insta-kill a Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer, Destroyer Lord and Immortal with FNP instead of WBB is 3x-4x larger, which would also include ranged rending weapons from EVERY race. Almost every single Space Marine unit/vehicle has access to cheap low AP weapons to pop the toughest Necron in a single shot, no save allowed with FNP! If a Necron stumbles in dangerous terrain with FNP, it wouldn’t have a chance to get back up!

FNP instead of WBB would be a huge nerf. Just take 10 minutes and clean up the WBB rules to make it 5th edition compatible. Nuff said..

My wish list:
WBB stays with 5th edition updates to the language
Fearless and Stubborn for all Necrons.
The C’tan need Eternal Warrior (insta-kill a god??)
Necron Lord BS/WS 5
Necron Lord purchased powers are army-wide, (simialr to most SM Characters).
Pariah’s need a 4+ invulnerable save and 2 attacks. Make them the ONLY Necron with FNP!
Give the Wraiths Rending and a Power Weapon option. Unit size 1-5
Make the Flayed Ones a Troop choice and give them Rending
Hi-tech eternal robots should have Night Vision (On the web today for under $150)
Hit and Run for Scarabs (my favorite unit) would be hilarious!
Twin-Linked Heavy Destroyers, unit size 1-5, with a Tank Hunters option. And for goodness sake, give Heavy Destroyers a longer range than a heavy bolter!

Okay, I’ll step down from my soap-box.

Hopefully someone from GW is reading…..

[Defenestratus]

My wish list:
WBB stays with 5th edition updates to the language
Fearless and Stubborn for all Necrons.
The C’tan need Eternal Warrior (insta-kill a god??)
Necron Lord BS/WS 5
Necron Lord purchased powers are army-wide, (simialr to most SM Characters).
Pariah’s need a 4+ invulnerable save and 2 attacks. Make them the ONLY Necron with FNP!
Give the Wraiths Rending and a Power Weapon option. Unit size 1-5
Make the Flayed Ones a Troop choice and give them Rending
Hi-tech eternal robots should have Night Vision (On the web today for under $150)
Hit and Run for Scarabs (my favorite unit) would be hilarious!
Twin-Linked Heavy Destroyers, unit size 1-5, with a Tank Hunters option. And for goodness sake, give Heavy Destroyers a longer range than a heavy bolter!


You forgot the "On a 2+, I win".

Sheesh... really?!

[DarkLink]

And why would you ever put FNP and WBB in the same codex?

[Qinsane]

And why would you ever put FNP and WBB in the same codex?

Pariah's and C'tans don't get WBB rolls. so he's asking for something similar for the Pariahs.

On different note altogether I've been playing my friend who plays Necrons a fair amount. Even with their older rules they're still hard for me to overcome. I lose most of the time. If GW improves on the current codex, I'll be disappointed. I really liked how DE came out with the same feel they had in the older codex, but with different mechanics. Mechanics that worked within the rules set forth in the WH40k rule book.

If I were to make a conjecture, It'd be that GW will do the same thing with Necrons. They'll keep the feel of the army, but the mechanics of what makes them who they are, will for the most part, stay within the rule set of the base rule book. I wouldn't be surprised if WBB was replaced by FNP. It would keep things simplified.

[DarkLink]

Pariah's and C'tans don't get WBB rolls. so he's asking for something similar for the Pariahs.

I wouldn't be surprised if WBB was replaced by FNP. It would keep things simplified.

I know they don't get WBB. The point is, why even bother keeping WBB if you're going to use FNP for some units, and WBB for others. Just use FNP, or just use WBB.

And frankly, FNP is a perfectly good, simple to use USR that does exactly what WBB is supposed to do in principle. There's no real good reason not to just use FNP.

[Qinsane]

And frankly, FNP is a perfectly good, simple to use USR that does exactly what WBB is supposed to do in principle. There's no real good reason not to just use FNP.

I agree whole heartedly. FNP does the same exact thing as WBB, hell, it's even nullified by the same things in this version.

[Archon Charybdis]

I can appreciate that Necron players don't want to lose the distinctiveness and fluffiness of WBB, but it can get really convoluted and it's easy to pull a fast one on somebody who's unfamiliar with the mechanic. FNP may be a bit of a nerf against shooting (being negatable by AP2), but in CC it will help actually keep models alive and able to fight back, which can go a long way to not being slaughtered and swept.

[Cyberscape7]

FNP may be a bit of a nerf against shooting (being negatable by AP2), but in CC it will help actually keep models alive and able to fight back, which can go a long way to not being slaughtered and swept.

Keep in mind, if the resurection orb remains somewhat the same, FnP saves should be able to be taken regardless of AP.
The one thing I really want to see in the new dex is T5 Warriors with 4+ save. Nurgle eat your heart out if you havent done it already

[Weafwolf]

I can appreciate that Necron players don't want to lose the distinctiveness and fluffiness of WBB, but it can get really convoluted and it's easy to pull a fast one on somebody who's unfamiliar with the mechanic. FNP may be a bit of a nerf against shooting (being negatable by AP2), but in CC it will help actually keep models alive and able to fight back, which can go a long way to not being slaughtered and swept.

Exactly. The fact of the matter is that the fluff can stay EXACTLY the same. Then, at the end, throw in the line that says, "Necrons with We'll Be Back use the Feel No Pain special rule." Imagine it any way you want, but use the rule that eliminates all of the foolishness concerning when a model is eligible. That one switch goes a long way towards helping Necrons in close combat. It's a no-brainer to me.

[DarkLink]

Really, there are only three differences between FNP and WBB anyways:

1. Res Orb. And this doesn't have to change. It can just say "model gets WBB even against AP2, Instant death, etc".

2. WBB is at the beginning of the next turn, and only if within a range of friendly models, while FNP is right away. Dealing with the bookkeeping isn't hard, but is annoying. Just streamline it and drop this whole part, and it will be better off.

3. What ignores WBB and FNP is slightly different. WBB is slightly better here, but there's not much reason to maintain this distinction.

[Weafwolf]

One of the nastiest games I played with Necrons was a three way battle. Technically, there was a round of close combat in each player's turn, which meant a unit that assaulted be got in two rounds of combat before I got my WBB rolls -- or, rather, DIDN'T get my WBB rolls :mad:

That game was the most fun I've had playing 40k, but that particular wrinkle was rough (and totally unanticipated by any of us). That's not much of an argument against WBB, but it is one example of the needless complexity the rule can introduce.

[DarkLink]

Well, seeing as you need some houserules to play 3-way battles anyways, might as well have houseruled WBB:rolleyes:

[Maelstorm]

Low AP weapons as well as Rending (Assault Cannons, Sniper Rifles, etc.) and Dangerous Terrain Tests all allow a WBB save. With FNP the models are all removed from the game without a save.

I'm not suire why a couple of hard-core FNP fans (you know who I'm talking about) are all over Necron Forum pages trying to sell FNP as a direct replacement for WBB. I'm guessing they don't field Necrons on a regular basis.

If GW is going to take the time to rewrite the entire codex, modify the points and abilities of most of the units, add new C'tand and other units and spend the $$ to create new molds for new models why wouldn't they take 30 minutes to update WBB while they are at it?

GW should spend 30 minuites to re-write WBB and make it compatable with 5th edition. Please stop the FNP = WBB hard sell.

'Nuf said...

[Defenestratus]

Please stop the FNP = WBB hard sell.

No.

WBB is a bad rule that is obsolete and serves no purpose in a USR system that has something very suitable to replace it.

Likewise, stop complaining that AP1,2 weapons will negate FNP. In return for taking scant casualties from AP1,2 ranged weapons, your squads will be a lot less likely to be run down in a sweeping advance. I figured that alone would sway you.

Furthermore - GW has been amenable to buffs to the FNP rule in the past - and I'm sure Necron's resorb/monolith/tombspiders will provide some sort of buff that makes already tough units even tougher. Setting your hair on fire and complaining that WBB might be going away and therefore the Necrons will be worse off is silly. The codex isn't even leaked yet.

What if they lowered the price of the warrior to 15 points and gave them FNP instead of WBB? Wouldn't that make your life a whole lot better? I know I might consider playing necrons if they did that.

[Maelstorm]

Alas, no. More folks who do not actually play Necrons passing judgement on WBB.

As a constant Necron General, I've only had a unit of warriors swept once. Following tactics written by Fritz40k, the warriors are screened by all of the other units. So no, FNP would do nothing but cause grief for my Destroyers and Immortals frome Space Wolf Lascannon spam. My Destroyers can take a hit from the Lascannons and get back up, move forward and silence the Lascannons in return.

The intellegent opponent ignores the Monolith and avoids the C'tan, going for phase-out. The intellegent Necron general castled in one corner forces the opponent to run the gauntlet of the C'tan and Monolith (the largest piece of movable, LOS blocking terrain) to get to the warriors. The warriors are spaced so that one unit can run back and the other can rapid-fire. The Destroyers silence/shake/stun light armor. The Monoliths primary function is as a WBB factory and to draw fire.

If a Necron General is allowing the opponent to get into close combat, he has already lost 90% of his games.

So again, no, FNP will not help more than WBB.

[BuFFo]

I say give Necrons Feel No Pain. Then, increase their toughness to 5. Finally, call them Plague Marines. Wait, aren't they called Immortals?

Congrats. You guys have killed off any fluff feeling for Necrons.

[Night System]

What would happen if i got my own way =D

Toughness 6, Str 3, no save, FNP, stubborn, 12-14 points each

Immortals + Destroyers can be same profile but with 3+ save

Necron Lord can be Toughness 7

Bring back the undying host!

[Maelstorm]

No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. They want to give Necrons Feel No Pain, just like Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, etc... And every other new codex coming down the pipe.

We can all be Vanilla and it will make it more fun for everyone! No more fuff required - no codex required -Just look for the USR! It all makes sense now... :p

[sangrail777]

WBB/FNP what ever is to be should also include it:
1-Monilths and also being able to shoot and bring back troops in the same turn/longer range and also used as res. orbs.
2-awakening rules. Necrons been around for awhile they should be able to apply USR's for a good price to squads to show thier age.
3-Higher int. for flayed ones add ability to include a PW or PF equivalient or "at least a warscyth that would work"
4-Heavy D's to be moved to fast attack
5-scarabs to troops but can not hold objectives
6-some type of squad leader or one for every 10 necron troops that can have some kind of special equip.
7-a JP necron troop choice 0-1 if need be
8-Destroyers dropped to 40 points ea.
9-Some kind of steal machine rule where you can attempt to take over your opponents machines (for lords of course)
Just my thoughts

[Fueldrop]

Necrons. (wishlist)

1 all units have FNP.
2 all units are relentless.
3 all units are ponderous. (Ponderous: infantry cannot run, jetbikes cannot turboboost cannot sweeping advance.)
4 all gauss weapons are rending at 50% range.
5 all units with disruption fields are rending in CC.
6 all units are stubborn.

all seems to fit with the fluff. (not a necron myself, though, so not 100% on cron fluff.)

[shrike]

well, dunno about fantasy codex releases, but it tends to go:
Imperium codex (40k)
Fantasy codex
Xenos codex (40k)
Fantasy codex
Imperium codex (40k)
and so on. So since we have C:DE now, It'll be another codex january, another march, ect., so 'crons will either be march or july. GK will be may-ish (probably).

[facelessone]

my wish is that my necrons codex is as good as the blood angels ,dark eldar & gray knights,not out yet but if GN are going to be the super elite SM better than BA ,then i hope necrons can stand up to them.....