Trash Talk - How Much is Too Much?

[ElectricPaladin]

Last night, I had a game - a team game, my Exorcists and a friend's Sisters of Battle vs Space Wolves and Imperial Guard - and one of my opponents really crossed the line. Every time he popped a transport or killed a model, he would cheer and pump his arms in the air and shout "Boom! Get that sh*t off my table! No f^cking Sisters of Battle here!" and so on.

It was notable in that it really was too much. I've played against opponents who said things like "The Emperor protects!" when their models passed cover saves or "Die filthy xenos!" as they rolled their to-hit dice... but somehow, this guy crossed a line. It was too much, too frequently, and too much profanity, and we almost ended the game over it.

I'd like to open a thread to talk about the difference between "good" smack talk and "bad" smack talk. Clearly, the difference exists, and I think we can improve the entire community if we can identify it.

I've got further ideas about this, but I don't want to write an essay here. What are your thoughts?

[Iyandagar]

My thoughts on this are that obviously your opponent was over the top. I love bantering when I play 40k, invariably I mock my own forces during the course of the game. It is a game and anyone that takes it that serious really has, in my opinion missed the point.

[Animus Silvanna]

Well I myself when I make a really really important Invul save I make the statement " Emperor's Finest!" but thats about the extent of that other then the usual banter of Oh snap he just got his head rolled or man your guys need to go back to the range and re-sight those bolters.

[heretic marine]

I am fine with them showing their excitement sometimes, like when a las gun kills a termie (stuff like that) I even am known to get excited/angry at my own models when they die or hit, like "how could you let me down Typhus" or "finally you hit someone little vindi" (jokingly of course). it really is how they are sending it (if that makes sense). if they are just messing around and joking I am fine with that, but it can go to far.

I fought one guy it was a 2000 point army. he fielded no vehicles, only infantry units, most of which were the normal Platoons. so when it started I was thinking there was no way this guy was gonna beat my Chaos Space Marines. I had a few vehicles a deathstar unit and other units. well all of his guys were lined up from table edge to table edge. he deployed first, but I stole the it with the lucky dice roll of a 6. I thought it was a good idea, no it was not. I foolishly moved my guys into range of his guys.
I was thinking ok I see how this works now. when it was his shooting phase whenever he would get several hits he would ha (or something along those lines). when he would get more then a dozen he would go "and who says guard can't hit anything." whenever he kill someone he would go "looks like he got ZAPPED!" or "man Chaos Space Marines suck" it got really annoying real fast. I mean one of those sayings every now and then is fine. but he did it every time something happened (sorry for this being so long, I also wanted to share that guys tactic).

[Kawauso]

Yeah, your opponent was being a ****.

The only way I could see his behaviour as being acceptable were if it were between two friends who know each other pretty well and it were clear that he was saying it in good fun - it seems pretty obvious this was not the case in your scenario.

I like to get into little 'narratives' with my opponent in games whenever something interesting happens one way or another. Say passing an important save of when an interesting/unlikely kill is made. It's fun to get into it with your opponent a little, fleshing it out and coming up with an epic and/or hilarious explanation as to what just occurred on the tabletop.

Smack talk can be fun and fine too - I mean, who doesn't like the occasional 'burn, heretics!' or 'die, xenos!', etc. It's part of the background of the game that most people playing it seem to enjoy. But I think it should be pretty obvious when 'smack talk' is fun for both players and when it is not - and the latter is never okay.

[LordGrise]

Anytime you get the feeling the other guy is doing it to bother you, it's too much. I have been known to pick up my dice, say "This isn't fun anymore. You win." And pack my stuff up. It's one of the main reasons that I am not willing to play with tournament players - smack talk oftens is one of their strategies, to put the other guy off their game, and it is simply, no fun for me. Of course, the game is not about fun for them either, IMHO - it's a domination/power trip for them. Apologies to any and all tourney players here who disagree with me; I can only comment on the ones whom I have played.

[lobster-overlord]

Vulgarity, personal insults, or things that interrupt the flow of the game, or the enjoyment by others all need to stay away. Also, at least mix it up some. If you're saying the same trite BS and no one's laughing with you (they could be laughing AT you when you say it) then it needs to be toned down or stopped altogether.

I think the mild trashtalk is a requirement to show you're not too serious in it. TOo much or none says to me that you're way too into it.

John M>

[Learn2Eel]

I recall a game being played between the reigning 'God of Ruin' (person who won the local gaming league) and someone else. The other person won and yelled for five minutes about how he "Ruined the God of Ruin" and kept rubbing it in. I felt like punching him in the throat. The 'God of Ruin' just laughed under his breath.

I trash talk my own stuff for laughs, as I believe in having fun and friendly games with others - after all, you have to remember that another person is trying to enjoy themselves as well. Any 'trash talk' is just for laughs, and is very restrained. I don't mind when a person gets a bit frustrated, as it is a game that usually take an hour or more of your time - feeling like you are being cheated/the dice are against you can be annoying. However, I've learned to take it in stride and just accept that it is a game of luck, but most importantly, it is just that - a game. Some people just seem to take it way too seriously.

[eldargal]

I think trash talk is silly, to me it is completely antithetical to the point of the game, which is to have fun. Friendly teasing amongst friends is fine, of course, but beyond that I don't like it at all.

[Colonel Bindoff]

I usually find that looking at your opponent like he's a complete d*** when he crosses the threshold I'll put up with helps cut it out. Probably helps that I look like an ork with a hangover though. I have said something in the past too, but to be honest I find at the club that there are gentlemanly players who I play against and idiots that I tend not to. Most o the time people's smack talk is pretty low standard and just shows a general lack of mental faculty. Even in sport I find smack talk to be pretty laughable to be honest, although there a little smile when the other guy is looking up at me from the grass goes a long way.

[Mr Mystery]

It has to be at least an attempt at light comedy.

For instance, when my Mindshackles do what they're supposed to do, a quick bout of 'stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself' delivered in a childish manner can be expected, but only before they roll for the damage done.

When my Necrons break or are forced to withdraw by solid tactical sense, a King Arthuresque 'RUN AWAY' is employed.

If you're going to commentate the game (and I consider it to be an integral part of the game) you need to do it for your successes, and your failures. Cheer your troops on, and scold them for displays of incompetence.

Though personally I tend to stick to pop culture references. A favourite one is when in Warhammer, a unit champion survives a challenge, and gets to attack back. Simply 'go on Neal, smash his face in!' again, delivered in a Vyvyan style.

But do read your opponent. If they aren't enjoying it, moderate accordingly.

[fuzzbuket]

guys its wargaming not rugby.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Screw you Scotland!

[Mr Mystery]

Rugby. It's a bit Girly for Scots.

You're not allowed to hit anyone with sticks.

[Colonel Bindoff]

Rugby. It's a bit Girly for Scots.

You're not allowed to hit anyone with sticks.

Plus you never get to win...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

They're just mad because they can't lift.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/d49/4c4/3a7/resized/advice-god-meme-generator-save-the-righteous-cover-earth-in-hellfire-except-scotland-send-them-wind-and-rain-fe08a6.jpg

[Denzark]

There is clearly a line between banter, which is being amusing, and being rude, which is not. Manners maketh man...

[Houghten]

For me, it's just not fun unless it's in-character. I'm talking to the models (as often my own as the opponent's), not belittling the player.

"Wot da zog wuz dat? Yooz gitz shoot like yooz been drinkin' bomma fuel!"

"Hur, hur, panzee eldar can't fight worth a - wuz dat da nob's 'ead? RUN FER IT LADZ!"

"Go fer da eyes, squig! Go fer da eyes! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!"

[fuzzbuket]

They're just mad because they can't lift.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/d49/4c4/3a7/resized/advice-god-meme-generator-save-the-righteous-cover-earth-in-hellfire-except-scotland-send-them-wind-and-rain-fe08a6.jpg

haha:D

[Mr Mystery]

Wind and rain makes a man of you.

Pansy southerners are pansy!

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the key to this is a simple one predicated upon two simple questions: are both of you laughing? Which direction is the power flowing?

Trash talk should be funny - if it's not a joke, you're being a boorish [EXPLETIVE REDACTED].

Secondly, who has the power? In many jokes, there is a power transaction; one person has power, and the humour derives from the direction it flows. In the case of self-deprecation, the person making the joke has the power: they are inviting the audience to laugh at themselves. As no-one but the joker is threatened, this joke is often harmless. Alternatively, in satire, the person making the joke directs their power towards an idea: they invite the audience to laugh at something. These jokes can be harmless (if the idea is one not held close to the audience's heart, for example insulting public transportation in a place known to have poor public transportation services) or harmful (for example, insulting a person's religion when they are a devoutly faithful follower).

For me, the problem with trash talk lies in the fact it's usually about a power transaction where one player has power over another due to the flow of the game, and their comments are then designed to reinforce the awareness of that power, usually as a way of asserting their dominance, rather than just being two people of equal status sharing a silly or funny idea. It's not enough for them to win - they must know that their opponent knows how badly they have lost. In this case, the power transaction is about dominance rather than equality: the only person having a good time is the dominant one.

Most people don't seem to get this - that humour and power are tied together so inextricably. It's why jokes are one of the strongest weapons of the bully: they are a simple and effective way to demonstrate the power the bully has over their victim. It's also why the vast majority of racist, sexist, and homophobic jokes aren't funny - because the power transaction is frequently more one way than in other humour. They represent a group of people with power using humour as a means to dominate and assert that power.

TL;DR: If you're not The Rock, don't waste time on trash talk - you're not any good at it.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the key to this is a simple one predicated upon two simple questions: are both of you laughing? Which direction is the power flowing?

Trash talk should be funny - if it's not a joke, you're being a boorish, unpleasant person.

Secondly, who has the power? In many jokes, there is a power transaction; one person has power, and the humour derives from the direction it flows. In the case of self-deprecation, the person making the joke has the power: they are inviting the audience to laugh at themselves. As no-one but the joker is threatened, this joke is often harmless. Alternatively, in satire, the person making the joke directs their power towards an idea: they invite the audience to laugh at something. These jokes can be harmless (if the idea is one not held close to the audience's heart, for example insulting public transportation in a place known to have poor public transportation services) or harmful (for example, insulting a person's religion when they are a devoutly faithful follower).

For me, the problem with trash talk lies in the fact it's usually about a power transaction where one player has power over another due to the flow of the game, and their comments are then designed to reinforce the awareness of that power, usually as a way of asserting their dominance, rather than just being two people of equal status sharing a silly or funny idea. It's not enough for them to win - they must know that their opponent knows how badly they have lost. In this case, the power transaction is about dominance rather than equality: the only person having a good time is the dominant one.

Most people don't seem to get this - that humour and power are tied together so inextricably. It's why jokes are one of the strongest weapons of the bully: they are a simple and effective way to demonstrate the power the bully has over their victim. It's also why the vast majority of racist, sexist, and homophobic jokes aren't funny - because the power transaction is frequently more one way than in other humour. They represent a group of people with power using humour as a means to dominate and assert that power.

TL;DR: If you're not The Rock, don't waste time on trash talk - you're not any good at it.

[imperialpower]

A bit of banter is fine in a game as far as I am concerned and if someone I play starts been out of line I tell them simple as, I can not really see how this would be a problem if people start acting like complete d***heads let them know about.

[wittdooley]

I think trash talking in a game so dependent on luck like this is utterly ridiculous. I was a huge ****-talker when I played football and rugby, but when you're physically imposing your will upon someone, it just seems more appropriate.

In a table top wargame? Just makes you look like a pathetic douche.

[LordGrise]

For me, it's just not fun unless it's in-character. I'm talking to the models (as often my own as the opponent's), not belittling the player.

"Wot da zog wuz dat? Yooz gitz shoot like yooz been drinkin' bomma fuel!"

"Hur, hur, panzee eldar can't fight worth a - wuz dat da nob's 'ead? RUN FER IT LADZ!"

"Go fer da eyes, squig! Go fer da eyes! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!"

I like Mr. Mystery's comment concerning light comedy, and Houghten's here (for some reason can't get both quotes up) - they hit the nail on the head. Comedy is fine; in my book that's not trash talk. It's when you're trying to irk the other player. I've been known to coach the opposing Spahss Muhreens to spend more ammo (when they miss) because it's less weight on the charge - but then I've also been known to have my Commander start yelling into his comm unit at the not-present Ethereals about hand-to-hand training as one of his Fire Warrior units get folded, spindled, mutilated, and then stomped, generally by something that was outnumbered two or three to one.

As an aside, was it ever in any version of the rules where the number of excess models in a melee-ing unit (in other words, three on five, the two extras would be excess) had any bearing on overall unit WS? It just seems wrong that three guys charge twelve and blithely rip them all to shreds before the twelve ever get a swing in...

[Colonel Bindoff]

As an aside, was it ever in any version of the rules where the number of excess models in a melee-ing unit (in other words, three on five, the two extras would be excess) had any bearing on overall unit WS? It just seems wrong that three guys charge twelve and blithely rip them all to shreds before the twelve ever get a swing in...

Wasn't combat resolution in 2nd that you got one extra per ally in close combat with the same enemy? Those combats were hella confusing at times. I remember the +1s for critical hits and -1s for fumbles. I've loaned my necromunda rule book to a buddy otherwise I'd look it up.

[Wolfshade]

I see no point in trash talking. The whole point of playing is for enjoyment. If you are trash talking your opponent then chances are they aren't having fun.
Self depreciating humour is fine. Today I spoke again of my missile launcher man and his inability to hit anything with krak missiles.
Certainly you can go further with friends but for a pick up game I doubt it.
In the end tactics might get you so far, but it is chance that makes you win or lose...

[Defenestratus]

Any trash talking is too much - and people who make me not enjoy my 40k are subject to defenestration.

[Adra]

Well my close mates and the guys at the club like to trash talk a bit, i think thats ok and its a kinda male bonding to make jokes about each other...as long as its all friendly and equal.

i tend to make fun of myself more in games for my mistakes but when i do roll very well or get a needed number i do click my fingers...dont know why but its like BANG thats what i wanna see. i dont think thats too annoying.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Wind and rain makes a man of you.

Pansy southerners are pansy!

But you're a southerner...

[Filthspew]

I guess its about basic social competence really.

Some people just dont do well when they have to get the feel of the situation and whats proper and whats not.

My good friends that I play regularly and have know for years, I would acccuse of fornicating with the dice god without blinking.

Someone I dont know well or just met, I would never do that.

If people are out of line or dont have basic tact, tell them politely as you would in any other context of life.

The most important thing about having fun with this game is to not play it with idiots :cool:

[Demonus]

I try to put as much effort into demeaning and demoralizing my opponent as possible. Complete with some hip thrusts and barbs about questioning hs / her sexuality, prowess in the bedroom, or possible improper relationship with his/her parents.

:)

[Wolfshade]

I think/hope someone has forgotten their sarcasm tags...

[Deadlift]

Last night, I had a game - a team game, my Exorcists and a friend's Sisters of Battle vs Space Wolves and Imperial Guard - and one of my opponents really crossed the line. Every time he popped a transport or killed a model, he would cheer and pump his arms in the air and shout "Boom! Get that sh*t off my table! No f^cking Sisters of Battle here!" and so on.

It was notable in that it really was too much. I've played against opponents who said things like "The Emperor protects!" when their models passed cover saves or "Die filthy xenos!" as they rolled their to-hit dice... but somehow, this guy crossed a line. It was too much, too frequently, and too much profanity, and we almost ended the game over it.

I'd like to open a thread to talk about the difference between "good" smack talk and "bad" smack talk. Clearly, the difference exists, and I think we can improve the entire community if we can identify it.

I've got further ideas about this, but I don't want to write an essay here. What are your thoughts?


Just plain rude, your a better man than me. I would have been getting out the metal dice and rolling them at his models.
I couldn't tolerate that kind of behavior without blowing a gasket. It's why I don't play at my local GW store anymore. The last time I did I had to step in and remove players from the store as they were about to come to blows.
My game time is for fun not for wind up merchants to try and piss me off ( to be fair most don't). For this reason we started a club for close friends only, no egos, just roll some dice, drink some beer and eat some pizza. Much more civilised.

[Popsical]

For games versus strangers i prefer no trash talk.
For games versus my mates, well, scurvy cheating downright evil shysters the whole bunch of em!!!!!!

[Kaiserdean]

I've only every really run into dicks at tournaments, however, I've met some of the nicest people at tournaments.

I had one guy stop between rounds to record things for a battle report, but only gave snarky comments about what happened with my models. It was increasingly frustrating because his dice were super hot and his passive aggressive trash talk (and referring to me as their general and giving false accounts about my feelings) really got under my skin.

I've also had a guy give me the "boom - in your face" type trash-talk and another guy who said, "brilliant" every time I declared an action.

However, I think a little good natured dialog is fine but I usually limit mine to self-deprecating remarks.