Another N00by Eldar Question re: Falcons and Wave Serpents

[ElectricPaladin]

In the army I'm buying from my friend, there are two assembled waveserpent (and a third NoS) and an assembled falcon. The waveserpents have shuriken cannons and twin-linked bright lances; the falcon has a shuriken cannon, a bright lance, and a scatter laser. Here are my questions:

1) Is there a "clearly best" loadout for either of these vehicles

2) If there is, is this it?

3) In your opinion, is it worth tearing the models apart and rebuilding them with magnets?

The shuriken cannon upgrade seems like a no-brainer to me. It would be like if my space marines could turn every storm bolter into a heavy bolter without losing transport capacity! But I'm not as confident about the heavy weapons.

[Autarch]

I personally run them as cheap as possible with shuriken cannon turrets, under slung TL-shuriken catapults and spirit stones (you need these things to keep moving no matter what). Eldar are so expensive to run (points-wise) that vehicle upgrades become a luxury I just cannot afford.

[Iceman]

Not that I'm an expert on Eldar, but when you put twin linked bright lances on Wave Serpents then they start to get expensive and you are putting transports into an anti-tank role.

I'm a fan of magnetizing weapons whenever possible since I find that the right weapon mix depends on the overall composition of my army.

[imperialpower]

The problem with putting anti tank weapons on wave serpents is first the points and secondly they become a bigger threat to your oponent and so get shot at alot more.

[Iyandagar]

Up until recently I believed te future was bright, and came in a lance form, however I now pretty much eschew them for the beautifully destructive Star Cannons. Cheaper, Terminator armour killers and two shots as opposed to one made these babies my new favourites. Oh how I have enjoyed unleashing a torrent of shots at an opponents stupid Draigo-wing and watched them perish before my very eyes...

The choice of load out really is determined by what kind of force you are fielding.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, it sounds like I definitely want to magnetize these once I've stripped them. No problem.

My follow-up question: what do you recommend as a platform for Eldar anti-tank, and which anti-tank do you recommend?

[imperialpower]

Are you talking about a platform or anti-grav platform? for anti-grav platform squads Vibro-cannons are both anti air and anti tank since they auto glance anything they hit with armour, D-cannons are good at anti armour but for me they are far too short range. I run Wraithlords with Brightlance and star cannons, Avatar and fire dragons as my anti armour most of the time somtimes I use wraithguard but they are slow across the board and if you put them in a transport if your oponent is smart he will not let them get anywhere near. I have seen people useing war-walker squads with missile spam effectivley as well but I prefer wraithlords as my heavy support choice.

[Iyandagar]

Hi Imperialpower, sadly the Vibro cannon shenanigans with flyers got faq'd and its a big fat NO on anti air, only if the flyer is hovering (effectively a skimmer) or the monstrous creature is in glide mode...

[imperialpower]

Hi Imperialpower, sadly the Vibro cannon shenanigans with flyers got faq'd and its a big fat NO on anti air, only if the flyer is hovering (effectively a skimmer) or the monstrous creature is in glide mode...

Yey I have no anti air now thanks GW, Well thanks for letting me know Iyandagar my friends will thank you for that, I will have to put my Eldar away until they get updated now, or say that and then spend money on FW flyers after a couple of weeks of not using them.

[Iyandagar]

Until I bought my Nightwing I had enjoyed partial success using the Aegis Defence Line, no restrictions in the rule book. 100pts quad gun, capable of glancing a flyer to death, or, against flimsy flyers perfectly capable of swatting them down. Also my 10 man wraith guard squad have on a couple occasions blown a Stormeagle down which is a flying land raider basically, using a seer to guide them ensures you gotta roll a couple of sixes unless the dice Gods have completely forsaken you.

[Iyandagar]

:( but yeah sorry Mr Power.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, the take-home lesons are:
• Lances on wave serpents make them too expensive and too much of a target.
• Lances of falcons are fine, but hardly the only option.
• Therefore, I should disassemble and magnetize all my turrets.
• Also, the best platforms for anti-tank shooting are war walkers, wraithlords, and wraithguard (especially with a farseer to use Divination powers on them) - which means I'll need to buy some :-/.

[ElectricPaladin]

Looking back on the thread again, if I have a limited number of turret bits, I should focus on making...
• Starcannons (more versatile, good at taking out light vehicles/heavy infantry)
• Shuriken Cannons (cheapest option)

What about missile launchers and scatter lasers? Are Eldar missile launchers generally as versatile and useful as space marine missile launchers, or are there better options? Are scatter lasers on wave serpents as good as I'd imagine them to be if the wave serpent is going to go infantry hunting with a squad of dire avengers?

Unrelatedly, I think I need to get some fire dragons. The idea of a squad of ten fire dragons, in a wave serpent with starcannons, hunting tanks and heavy infantry makes me smile.

[Autarch]

Fire dragons are the old standby, but I like hornets with missile launchers. You can keep them at 48" distance from the enemy, and use your speed to access good firing lanes. Throw in a Warp Hunter to escort your wave serpents and deal with tanks (and termies etc) up close, and you have what Eldar truly need, tank busting ability that stretches the field.

[imperialpower]

Until I bought my Nightwing I had enjoyed partial success using the Aegis Defence Line, no restrictions in the rule book. 100pts quad gun, capable of glancing a flyer to death, or, against flimsy flyers perfectly capable of swatting them down. Also my 10 man wraith guard squad have on a couple occasions blown a Stormeagle down which is a flying land raider basically, using a seer to guide them ensures you gotta roll a couple of sixes unless the dice Gods have completely forsaken you.

Yea good ideas but my board is 2.6mx1.8m and I usually play against Tau and Necrons armies of around 2500pts+ so face swarms of Necron flyers or a good few Barracudas at long range so I would need a lot more fire power, so as much as I hate waiting for the new range of Eldar I would rather not spend the money until I have read the new codex.

[ElectricPaladin]

Fire dragons are the old standby, but I like hornets with missile launchers. You can keep them at 48" distance from the enemy, and use your speed to access good firing lanes. Throw in a Warp Hunter to escort your wave serpents and deal with tanks (and termies etc) up close, and you have what Eldar truly need, tank busting ability that stretches the field.

You say good things, but all I hear is "blah blah blah Forgeworld wants all your monies..." :D.

But seriously, it's good to know that Eldar missile launchers are an option, and I'll magnetize a couple. I'm also happy to hear that my instincts around fire dragons are correct, and I'll definitely invest in a few, in time.

[ElectricPaladin]

Further question:

I have magnetized my turrets. I now have to field (in any combination of three):
• Up to two wave serpents with missile launchers.
• Up to two wave serpents with bright lances.
• Up to three wave serpents with shuriken cannons.

I have the bits to make one more turret. What weapon do you recommend?

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you magnetizing the turrets but gluing the weapons those turret have? If so I think you have the turret basics covered so I think I'd go with star cannon.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you magnetizing the turrets but gluing the weapons those turret have? If so I think you have the turret basics covered so I think I'd go with star cannon.

I'm basically magnetizing them like this:

http://eldar.arhicks.co.uk/graphics/elements/magnetising_eldar_vehicles_3.jpg

Each magnet's sister goes like this (the picture is a falcon turret, but the principle is the same:

http://eldar.arhicks.co.uk/graphics/elements/magnetising_eldar_vehicles_2.jpg

So, the limiting factor is how many of those guard-shoulder-things (the rounded bits that hide the base of the weapon, where it meets the turret). GW is quite generous with them - each wave serpent kit comes with four, and you only need two - but I've used them all up and only have one more set. Hence, I can make one more weapon option.

If I could find someplace that sells those bits online, I'd buy them up and make more. Oddly, though, I haven't been able to find any.

[Houghten]

Yeah, they're kinda popular for that exact reason. So are the War Walker ones (possibly even more so).

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah, they're kinda popular for that exact reason. So are the War Walker ones (possibly even more so).

Yeah, but you'd think the bits sellers would do a brisk business in them, but I can't find them on eBay.

[Nabterayl]

I'm basically magnetizing them like this:

http://eldar.arhicks.co.uk/graphics/elements/magnetising_eldar_vehicles_3.jpg

Each magnet's sister goes like this (the picture is a falcon turret, but the principle is the same:

http://eldar.arhicks.co.uk/graphics/elements/magnetising_eldar_vehicles_2.jpg

So, the limiting factor is how many of those guard-shoulder-things (the rounded bits that hide the base of the weapon, where it meets the turret). GW is quite generous with them - each wave serpent kit comes with four, and you only need two - but I've used them all up and only have one more set. Hence, I can make one more weapon option.

If I could find someplace that sells those bits online, I'd buy them up and make more. Oddly, though, I haven't been able to find any.
Ahhhh. I just magnetized my guards.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ahhhh. I just magnetized my guards.

I'd never do that. Too many tiny bits. I'd be afraid of losing them.

[Houghten]

Yeah, but you'd think the bits sellers would do a brisk business in them, but I can't find them on eBay.

It's like the Land Raider Inner Doors and the Venerable Dreadnought Plasma Cannons, they get put up and then they get snapped up. Keep looking and eventually you'll find some before someone else does.

[ElectricPaladin]

Further questions:

Looking back on this thread, I see a lot of advice around wave serpents, ranging from "keep 'em cheap" to "missile launchers and star cannons are ok," which has helped me figure out how best to magnetize them. However, there isn't a lot here about falcons. What are the top choices for a falcon's turret weapon, alongside the pulse laser?

My instincts say "bright lance." It's got a similar range, power level, and ideal target to the pulse laser. However, that's also making a fairly expensive tank more expensive, so I'd like to hear the opinions of more experienced Eldar players.

Also, assume for the moment that I can only magnetize one weapon (again, the guard issue described upthread). I'm sure I'll eventually find the bits I need to magnetize the turret with all options, but for the moment I only have the bits for one, and maybe I can cheat by putting a wave serpent's left bright lance on when it isn't using it. Anyway, if you could only set up your falcon, at start, with one option, which would it be?

[Archon Charybdis]

As far as Wave Serpents, the only thing to absolutely avoid is Star Cannons. They're just terrible--way too expensive for not nearly enough killing power. Bright Lances I would generally avoid as well because they're so expensive, but if you're in a pinch for anti AV14 they're workable. If at all possible, take a squad (or two) of 5-6 Fire Dragons instead; they're much more reliable. In general, the Scatter Laser or EML are going to be the most versatile and get you the best bang for your buck. They're reasonable cheap, and can both do anti-infantry and light anti-tank.

I haven't really used Falcons in 6th, though I imagine they might be useable now with being able to fire two weapons and getting a 5+ Jink save. I think they might still be too expensive to be worth taking, but if you're going to use it I'd probably stick to an EML and focus on anti-tank. If you take a Bright Lance, anytime you shoot at AV13 or 14 your Pulse Laser isn't doing much, and you're missing out on that extra foot of range. Obviously a Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon would be cheaper options, but like the Bright Lance they're sort of at odds with your Pulse Laser. Despite my general dislike of them, you MIGHT consider a Star cannon and use it as an anti-MC or anti-Termie unit, but I can't help but think you could use those points towards something else that would work better.

And to a point raised earlier, the Forge World Eldar units are amazing. They're well-balanced to the current game but fill in a lot of weak spots in the existing Eldar Codex. Plus, they're all gorgeous which is never a bad thing.

[Xenith]

I'd never do that. Too many tiny bits. I'd be afraid of losing them.

Yea, its not like they will stick to each other, or anything... :p

On Falcons, It depends entirely on what you want to do with them.

Long range support, EML, so you have 3 S8shots at 48".
Termie hunter - Starcannon - 4S6+ AP2 shots/turn guided will shred M/TEQ.
infantry killer: 2x shuricannon (also very cheap, for the 6S6, 2S8 shots it puts out/turn)

For the points any falcon costs, though, youre better off with a warp hunter. Its better at each of those jobs on its own than a specialised falcon.

[Nabterayl]

My instincts say "bright lance." It's got a similar range, power level, and ideal target to the pulse laser. However, that's also making a fairly expensive tank more expensive, so I'd like to hear the opinions of more experienced Eldar players.
I'm far from an eldar expert, but my instinct is to substitute an EML for the bright lance in almost all situations in which you want S8 shots. The EML is significantly cheaper, and a single lance shot doesn't seem worth it on a Falcon to me. For taking on heavy armor, Falcons just don't seem like the right platform to me.

[Lost Vyper]

I use tlBL´s on my Wave Serpents in every game. In Heavy support, i have 3 x 3 War Walkers (normally Scatter Lasers or ML´s and if points are thin, Cannons in the outflanking one´s). My opponents really have to think what to shoot. Is it the WW´s behind Aegis-line who are Fortuned, or the WS´s, which can pop their rides? Only annoying thing in WS´s is, that they REALLY miss a lot, or it feels that way. BS 3 is just bs...

[Xenith]

Yea, the only places that are semi viable for BL's are wave serpents and wraithlords. The points premium you pay for them doesnt make it worthwhile. A BS3 non TL platform then needs a guide babysitter, which is more points.

[ElectricPaladin]

to admit, I don't really get the antipathy towards bright lances on wave serpents. The bright lance is a powerful single shot weapon, that thanks to its range will almost always find a target. But, it's only single shot, so twin-linking it is key. You need that shot to hit. Outside of wraithlords, the only way to get that twin-linked bright lance is by putting it on a wave serpent. And since you need a ton of wave serpents in a mechanized Eldar army anyway... why not? Plus, with their energy fields, wave serpents are even more durable than any other vehicle in the Eldar arsenal.

That said, I'm happy to clip them off and magnetize all the options, and I do understand the appeal of keeping transports cheap.

But, I think about my Tau and my Space Marines. Imagine being able to take twin-linked lascannons and railguns on my rhinos and devilfishes... it's appealing.

[Anggul]

I do fairly well with the occasional TL Bright Lance Wave Serpent. Mainly with Fire Dragons because you don't want to just fly them in straight away, you want to bide your time, firing away with the Bright Lance until the opportune moment, then bam, Fire Dragons melting your stuff.

To be honest they're all good options (although I wouldn't go for the Starcannons), it just depends on what your army needs. If in doubt, Scatter Lasers are always good pretty much all the time, and they're cheap.

[JMichael]

I'd never do that. Too many tiny bits. I'd be afraid of losing them.

I do magnetize the weapons and guards because the kits don't come with enough 'guards' for all of the weapons (and I like my options!).
I have 1 set of guards/vehicle and leave them attached with weapons on my tanks in the foam cases I use. Then I bag the other weapons grouped by Str and type (1 bag of War Walker weapons, 1 bag of Serpent Str6, and 1 bag of Serpent Str 8, and 1 bag of chin guns). This makes it easy for me to quickly find and swap the options before each game.

[JMichael]

Here's my genreal Eldar vehicle loadout:

Wave Serpents with Fire Dragons - ShuriCannon (turret and chin) and all engine upgrades. The Dragons can deal with armor and since I rush them up I don't need the range of the Scatter Laser and prefer using the Str6 to hit light transports or thin out that unit that will turn on my Dragons.

Wave Serpents with Dire Avengers - EML. Great multi purpose weapon, I tend to use the plasma missiles more than krak. I often put Bright Lance on 1 Dire Avenger Wave Serpent as a 'just in case' and also to attract fire (then they aren't shooting at my Fire Dragons!)

Falcon - rarely use them.

War Walkers - A must have in my army and always supported with a basic Guide Seer (now using Prescience). Either all or a mix of EML, Scatter Laser. But since we don't have much Anti-Air, I tend to equip them with dual Scatter Lasers. 24 Str6 shots (re-roll misses thanks to the seer) is nothing short of spectacular! I once kitted them with dual StarCannons vs a Termy GK list...he almost cried as they ripped apart his squads!

Fire Prisms - Don't use 'em except in Apocalypse (10" Str D = yes please!). 230pts for the linked shot is waaaay to expensive in my opinion and I notoriously roll terrible with my scatter die.

Night Spinners - I almost always take 2 with no options. These are the bane of my enemies and I keep them hidden behind terrain. These were better in 5th when you didn't get an armor save from Dangerous Terrain, but still great at slowing down assault armies and that rending is not to be under estimated.

Vypers - I have them, but don't use them. For my play style I need the points elsewhere (like War Walkers)

Warp Hunter - A great tank, though Forge World it isn't really overpowered. Like many of our tanks (and even super heavies) the armor is 12/12/10 so don't leave it in the open and unprotected. 36" D-Cannon, and since it's Barrage you can hide out behind cover and dare those Terminator squads to get close!

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's my genreal Eldar vehicle loadout:

First of all, this is an awesome little tacticalet. I'll read it a few times and chew on the contents. I have one particular question...



War Walkers - A must have in my army and always supported with a basic Guide Seer (now using Prescience). Either all or a mix of EML, Scatter Laser. But since we don't have much Anti-Air, I tend to equip them with dual Scatter Lasers. 24 Str6 shots (re-roll misses thanks to the seer) is nothing short of spectacular! I once kitted them with dual StarCannons vs a Termy GK list...he almost cried as they ripped apart his squads!


I assume this means that you don't outflank the walkers, because then there'd be no way to ensure that the farseer could get to them. My question is, how do you stop a lone farseer from being sniped out, and how do you keep him keeping up with the war walkers? Is he on foot? Do you put him on a bike (permanent cover save, increased toughness, can jump-shoot-jump out from behind the war walkers)? Does he have warlocks to act as ablative wounds?

[JMichael]

First of all, this is an awesome little tacticalet. I'll read it a few times and chew on the contents. I have one particular question...



I assume this means that you don't outflank the walkers, because then there'd be no way to ensure that the farseer could get to them. My question is, how do you stop a lone farseer from being sniped out, and how do you keep him keeping up with the war walkers? Is he on foot? Do you put him on a bike (permanent cover save, increased toughness, can jump-shoot-jump out from behind the war walkers)? Does he have warlocks to act as ablative wounds?

I almost never outflank the War Walkers though I sometimes use their Scout to move to get a better position that my opponent didn't plan on (like deploy behind a building facing 1 direction then use the Scout move to redeploy with LoS in the other direction).
I keep the Farseer on foot and generally keep him cheap (Stone of Witnessing and Singing Spear, sometimes Runes of Warding as well) but also keep him out of LoS. With Prescience having a 12" range as opposed to the 6" range of Guide this is easier now. This is mostly just to use the points elsewhere. If the Farseer dies then no big whoop, 24 Str 6 shots are still brutal without the re-roll!

I don't recall ever having that Farseer killed as there are always far juicier targets for my opponent (like the squishy War Walkers themselves!).

Speaking of juicy targets...When I do take a Wraithlord his only real purpose is to soak up fire and I'll often put a Bright Lance on him to make him an even higher priority and run him towards the enemy keystone unit(s). If he dies, then my Fire Dragons or other important units live longer, if the Wraithlord lives and actually gets to the enemy lines...well then it's clobberin' time!

[Archon Charybdis]

But, I think about my Tau and my Space Marines. Imagine being able to take twin-linked lascannons and railguns on my rhinos and devilfishes... it's appealing.

In principle it's fine--there's no categorical reason you shouldn't put a Lance on a Serpent--the problem is just that it's way overpriced. Comparable Lascannon upgrades on Imperial vehicles are either significantly cheaper or still slightly cheaper but with BS4, and the Lascannon is a better all around gun.

As a number of us have pointed out though, it might still be worth taking if you're lacking anti-AV14 elsewhere in your list. It's just not the most efficient or effective way to get it. I do like JMichael's idea of putting them on your Dire Avenger transports as a diversion from your Dragons though. In general though, Bright Lances throughout the book need to come down 10-15pts.

[Warpspider89]

In principle it's fine--there's no categorical reason you shouldn't put a Lance on a Serpent--the problem is just that it's way overpriced. Comparable Lascannon upgrades on Imperial vehicles are either significantly cheaper or still slightly cheaper but with BS4, and the Lascannon is a better all around gun.

As a number of us have pointed out though, it might still be worth taking if you're lacking anti-AV14 elsewhere in your list. It's just not the most efficient or effective way to get it. I do like JMichael's idea of putting them on your Dire Avenger transports as a diversion from your Dragons though. In general though, Bright Lances throughout the book need to come down 10-15pts.

Still... a BL on a wave serpent is TL. Just blast away at the enemy carefully from the backfield before advancing your WS.

[Archon Charybdis]

Still... a BL on a wave serpent is TL. Just blast away at the enemy carefully from the backfield before advancing your WS.

And it's still way overpriced. There's more efficient and effective ways of dealing with AV14 in an Eldar army, chiefly Fire Dragons.

[ElectricPaladin]

And it's still way overpriced. There's more efficient and effective ways of dealing with AV14 in an Eldar army, chiefly Fire Dragons.

I'm not saying I officially eschew bright lances, but I really need to get some fire dragons, don't I? I wonder why the dude I'm buying this army from never got any...

[Xenith]

I'm not saying I officially eschew bright lances, but I really need to get some fire dragons, don't I? I wonder why the dude I'm buying this army from never got any...

He's probably selling the army as he isn't doing well with it...as he never bought dragons.

That, or he's selling you the bad bits.

:P

[ElectricPaladin]

He's probably selling the army as he isn't doing well with it...as he never bought dragons.

I LOLed.


That, or he's selling you the bad bits.

If I didn't know that I had the entire army - he originally put it in my care to sell it for him... after a couple of years, I decided to sell it for him... to me - I'd wonder. Though, I am getting some good stuff. Scorpions are at least ok. Guardian jetbikes are fine. Dire Avengers have their problems, but they're still kind of the backbone of the army.

[Warpspider89]

I'm not saying I officially eschew bright lances, but I really need to get some fire dragons, don't I? I wonder why the dude I'm buying this army from never got any...

I personally believe that it is possible to do without them. I gave up on them early on when they got wiped every game and was able to have success without using them. However, they can be super helpful.

[Nabterayl]

It may also depend on his meta. Personally I think fire dragons are only a must vs. AV13 and higher. For busting lighter vehicles, I'd prefer something with range and a high rate of fire, like a war walker squadron with EMLs or EML Falcons. Fire dragons will tear up AV12 and below of course, but given their limited range and the fact that they work best in a transport themselves, I don't (again, not an expert eldar player here) think they're the ideal option for dealing with lighter vehicles.

[DWest]

It's been several years since I personally fielded Eldar, but I always fielded Fire Dragons for a single reason, and that was to shoo away Terminators. I believe from what I've seen that big lumps of 2+ armor are just as much a problem now as they were then, so I say get out the melta-hammer and drive that nail back down. Also Fire Dragons have 4+ armor, so they at least won't disappear in a stiff wind like Guardians.