When is it okay to jump ship??

[eagleboy7259]

So there's an awful lot of blue, green, and even black space wolves running around lately...

Recently I decided that I wanted to try my hand at building a Dark Angels army. Needless to say I have heard from almost everyone that the codex is out of date, its non-competitive, and it will be the biggest waste of money that I've ever spent. Everyone is advocating that I drop the DA codex and play green smurfs with C:SM because "Dark Angels companies 3-10 are codex formation anyway so it makes sense that you could use the codex for the better rules". However I feel a bit different about the situation, that I'm playing DA and I should use the DA codex. If I wanted to be Vanilla, BT, BA, or SW I would use their codexes, kits and stuff.

I realize that codex jumping isn't really a problem for other races as it is for Space Marines. I mean we basically use the same weapons, tanks, equipment... all just different colors and slightly different rules. Proxying isn't really and issue because most people don't have a problem counting a DA Land Raider as a SM Land Raider and such. When is it okay to jump ship and use another codex?? And how much does it bother you when a Space Marine player uses a different list than the army he built?

[Lerra]

At the end of the day, 40k is a game, and it's supposed to be fun for both you and your opponent.

Most opponents want a close game - a blowout in either direction is not fun. I would rather play against a skilled opponent with a challenging list, although I have no problems playing against a fluffy casual list either. If you want to run green SM or green SW it's fine with me - it's your army. You invest a lot of time and money into the army, and you should be able to play it however you want to.

DA is really not that bad, but you are playing with a handicap. It's about equivalent to playing a game of chess minus a pawn or two. A skilled player will still beat less skilled opponents, but at the top level of competition, any minor disadvantage becomes difficult to overcome. Most of DA units cost 10% more, and you are missing some of the nicer new items and tricks from the SM codex. You get a few special abilities in return, but it's not enough to close the gap. On the other hand, the DA fluff is a lot better. Personally, I run fallen Dark Angels that count as Space Wolves, but I was never proper Dark Angels in the first place ;)

About 50% of Dark Angel players that I see use Codex: Space Marines. You're in good company no matter what you decide.

[Katie Drake]

All in all, I don't find jumping ship to be all that bothersome unless it's something that happens constantly. It's one thing for a Marine player to switch from Codex: Dark Angels to Codex: Space Marines to get around the Dark Angel books failings, but entirely another for someone to be playing one Codex, then be distracted by the next shiny thing to be released and abandon their own project, only to repeat the process yet again the next time something shiny comes out.

Maybe that's not the same thing, though. I guess I'm just bothered because I assume everyone else is as loyal to their armies as I am to mine. ^^;;

[Red__Thirst]

If you want to use the current SM dex's rules to represent Dark Angels, I see no problem with it. As has been said, a lot of time and money goes into building and painting an army and if you want to field it a specific way, more power to you.

I personally always use the rules for what the army looks like. For instance; I took a friends Dark Angels army to a tournament last spring, had Dark Angels icons and ravenwing logos all over it (He typically fields it as a fallen angels army), so , together with his help, I built the list using the DA codex and played it as a Raven Wing themed force. Had a blast with the codex and won all three of my games in a field of about 30 people playing. Had a MotRW in a speeder, 3 fast attack tornado pattern speeders, a full 10 wound bike squad, 2 10 man tactical squads and razorback transports, a couple of dreadnoughts, and a couple of predators. I didn't win the tournament as I didn't get max battle points every game, but I put up a very good showing with the army.

I feel that the Dark Angels get a bad rap with their codex because it lacks all the new wargear options that the present marine codex has. (new version of the storm shield et-al.) However if I do play against a DA force I make sure to tell them that I want them to use the updated rules in the marine codex for wargear where applicable (If they're using the DA codex rather than the Marine dex of course) as a general gesture of good will and because I want them to do well.

I like the DA rules, and this is coming from someone who has played both with, and against the codex. I'm not saying it isn't limited, but I feel that what I just detailed is done for the codex, it makes it a far more viable option for DA players.

Just my two copper coins, take care everyone. :)

-Red__Thirst-

[Wolfshade]

At the end of the day, it is your hobby, so your choice. If you particularly like a specific chapter's fluff collect and play them. If you want to use the latest ruleset, use them see how it goes, if you like them collect and play them (money permitting). What I think would be a bad choice would be mix and matching the old list with the new list as you could do this to create a distinct advantage for yourself (conciously or subconciously) the immediate example would be oh I'll take my troops from codex space marine as they are cheapest, and I'll mix into that blood angels elite for the free death company and dark angel codex for assault terminators with weapons yay! Its an all or nothing approach. Also, lets face it, us space marine players can feel pretty confident that our codex would/will be updated soon rather than later since they are easier to model, and the special rules would have probably already been play tested while making the codex spacemarine, for example ooh this special rule makes this character a close combat monster this would be good for a BA/SW close combat IC.
But I would say play explore it might encourage you to play a new army, or give you different ideas with how to play your chapter.
One of my friends before he collects a new army creates a list a fluffy list (one that he thinks represents the spirit of the game) and then proxies that enitre army and play a series of games with this proxies making some changes then if he is happy with the result, collects the new army.

[Melissia]

As you said, none of the codices are anything more than subfactions and variations on the same army, so it's really perfectly fine IMO. Whether you're using green marines or blue marines or red, I'll still set them all on fire and be done with it :P

[Lerra]

a full 10 wound bike squad

Hmm. Max squad size for Ravenwing bikes is six bikes (six wounds), plus the attack bike (two wounds). The attack bike is not part of the squad. He is just purchased with the squad and then goes off on his own, so as far as I see it, the most number of wounds you can run is 6. Did you have an IC or two in the squad to get up to 10 wounds?

[Katie Drake]

Hmm. Max squad size for Ravenwing bikes is six bikes (six wounds), plus the attack bike (two wounds). The attack bike is not part of the squad. He is just purchased with the squad and then goes off on his own, so as far as I see it, the most number of wounds you can run is 6. Did you have an IC or two in the squad to get up to 10 wounds?

Nope. Codex Marine Bikes have a total of 10 wounds if taken at full strength. 8 Bikers and an Attack Bike.

[Ivarr]

I think that you are being rough on yourself if you even call it "jumping ship". You bought in to the game...and it is a great game....use the codex that makes the game the most fun for you.

[MarshalAdamar]

I would agree with most of the posts as far as its just a game, play vanilla codex if you like just keep the builds in the spirit of the DA.

BUT I would say don't give up on DA just yet, look around what do the vanilla marines have that you don’t? (That people actually bring! Seen any thunder fire cannons lately?) Also check your codex you might find some gems, the smoke launchers in your dex are the same as my BT I believe. (Down grades ALL PENETRATING HITS TO GLANCING) That’s a huge advantage it makes your vehicles almost indestructible the round you pop smoke so use that to your advantage

Build your lists to play to your strengths, and leave out the weakness. You can't out shoot a stern guard squad so don't try but you do have a scout move with raven wing bikers, built in teleport homers, an AV14 freaking skimmer!

You can build a list that is just about the mirror of a regular marine codex if you look at the DA codex, just look where you and the C: SM are about the same, take those units and then take units from your dex that gives you an edge. I think you'll be surprised.

[Wolfshade]

I think sumarising the last post gives an interesting opinion, learn what you can do with the "vanilla" dex and then think about how to incorporate your bonus units to that. In a thought of if I can do this with my normal marines, then I can lever my advantage by using my "bonus" units.

Bonus units (noun) space marine units not included in codex space marine e.g. Death Company

[Duke]

I see where you are coming from and I have to say that I honestly wouldn't care if you played "green MArines," a lot of people at my FLGS do it and nobody cares... However, I love my Blood Angels and will not go over to "Red Marines," not because Im trying to make a point, but simply cause I really like my BA... If you are like that with Dark Angels then play them and tell all the 'effecient gamers,' to stick it.


Duke

[Melissia]

Seen any thunder fire cannons lately?

No, and it's stupid cause they're actually pretty good for how cheap they are. Three thunderfire cannons situated in some good cover can ruin any horde army's day, and make life mighty unpleasant for MEQ armies too... alll for a pretty cheap price.

[eagleboy7259]

So if I brought Green Smurfs to a tournament nobody would mark me down on the soft scores for being too competitive?

[Melissia]

Why should I? Smurflings burn just as easily as goths burn just as easily as vampires burn just as easily as werewolves.

Heh.

[Wolfshade]

1 in 4 assuming they are in power armour and hit by a regular flamer:p

[Duke]

Why should I? Smurflings burn just as easily as goths burn just as easily as vampires burn just as easily as werewolves.

Heh.

Actually smurfs are immune to fire, or else gargamel would have tried that a long time ago. Vampires and Werewolves hate it though, lol

Duke