Tactics confession - I don't 'get' Plasma Cannons...

[Denzark]

A small one thought from me - I simply don't understand the worth of Plasma cannons, and in the face of the impending ability for DA terminators to use them, I thought I would ask for help.

My problem is this. With the exception of deepstrike, I rarely see an MEQ player of any competence cluster his troops up - to stop blast templates. Now I believe you are compelled to place the template with the hole of the template over the target miniature. Therefore, if accurate, and if my experience of competent players holds true, the plasma cannon will kill 1 MEQ in a turn it hits.

If it misses however, there is absolutely no way to guarantee which way it will scatter. So you can't rely on the 2/3 chance of a scatter to get more hits.

So, 1 shot, gets hot, not Instant Death as S7 vs MEQ T4; what actually is there to like compared to any other HW out there?

[Wolfshade]

If we consider what the alternatives are you have the

* Heavy Flamer - Short Ranged, Tempalte so if ranged correctly you can hit a bunch of guys but high AP and relatively low S means that it is good vs. hordes but not so reliable against MEQ

* Assault Cannon - Multiple shots and the possibility of rending, but still suffers from having a high AP and only slightly stronger S than Heavy Flamer so again is good vs hordes and some of the less tough elites/big bugs. Good range

* Plasma Cannon - The blast & Gets Hot rule are a bit of a downer and as you say will rarely hit more than one minature at a time and won't cause instant death, but it is AP2 so is very good. But a good range.

* Cyclone Missile Launcher - Good range and choice between Frag/Krak means that it is versatile horde & elite (even light vehicles), it doesn't get hot and can cause instant death.

Hmm, I started this comparison with the thought of coming down in favour of the Plasma Cannon, however, from my run down I think the the Cyclone missile launcher is the better option and you still get your storm bolter shots.

Actually, I think I might convert my heavy weapons to Cyclone missile launchers.

I agree with you, the only thing I can think of is that it helps with a unified plasma astethic across the whole DA range and it gives them something unique which gives them a niche...

[Psychosplodge]

I doubt I'd take them Individually, Plasma cannons work in fours...where you're bound to get some overlap, also I found them handy for taking out clusters of daemons as they spawned(not sure if thats still how daemons appear)

[Mr Mystery]

It's disuassion.

Anything capable of reliably dropping Terminators is likely to be terrified of Plasma. Terrain can often see your troops bunched up, whether you want to or not (assuming you're using enough on the board). These coupled together, and you're onto a win with Plasma.

[Majorcrash]

For those of us who dont play just space marines in their many flavors ( yea all 5 of us). Plasma is great for keeping things like termies away. i hope for a scatter as i can usually get 2 with one shot. In 5th ed my favorite tank was the exterminator, even for the price, a 3 shot plasma turret and then 1 each from the sponsons. On a good day could take out 3-4 termies even with shields. And against pwr armor the kills were better. Now days I just rely on mass las guns and pray a little.

[ElectricPaladin]

To second Wolfshade and add my own thoughts:

Plasma is S7, AP2, which is pretty powerful.

Plasma cannons let you deliver that up to 36'' away.

And, if that wasn't enough, I have often found that I can place the blast template to hit at least two models. Perhaps not when I'm shooting at large-base opponents, like terminators, but it's very effective against smaller targets.

[bfmusashi]

Once upon a time, an Inquisitor Lord with two mystics next to a Leman Russ Executioner was a holy terror for deep striking assault troops. If I ever get a chance to play using the Grey Knights codex I'll certainly have plasma cannon servitors with Coteaz.

[Denzark]

Interesting stuff. As qualified, beyond the deepstrike, I rarely see MEQ (or anyone beyond ork masses for that matter) blobbed together so that the 1 1/2" radius template can be placed legally and get more than one. Coteaz would be an interesting dynamic for sure, as is the executioner.

[Aegwymourn]

Mr. Mystery has it spot on. Typically one or two plasma cannons are not scary enough for this. But having a team of 4 can seriously change how your opponent deploys and approaches that whole 36" range. In a close game putting your opponent off balance like this can have a huge impact on how the game turns out.

[Martel732]

A small one thought from me - I simply don't understand the worth of Plasma cannons, and in the face of the impending ability for DA terminators to use them, I thought I would ask for help.

My problem is this. With the exception of deepstrike, I rarely see an MEQ player of any competence cluster his troops up - to stop blast templates. Now I believe you are compelled to place the template with the hole of the template over the target miniature. Therefore, if accurate, and if my experience of competent players holds true, the plasma cannon will kill 1 MEQ in a turn it hits.

If it misses however, there is absolutely no way to guarantee which way it will scatter. So you can't rely on the 2/3 chance of a scatter to get more hits.

So, 1 shot, gets hot, not Instant Death as S7 vs MEQ T4; what actually is there to like compared to any other HW out there?

I believe you can put the blast over any part of any base. So you often can get 3 targets. If you hit. Basically, it's a huge risk vs reward weapon. When it works, its devastating. In the hands of a BS 4 marines, its almost BS 3 in terms of hitting where you want. The primary downfall is that it allows cover saves, which hurts its killing ability significantly. But units caught out in the open can outright be eliminated with these things.

[Mr Mystery]

I disagree on the cover thing.

Far better to be able to deny armour saves rather than cover, as cover is typically a worse save.

[ElectricPaladin]

I disagree on the cover thing.

Far better to be able to deny armour saves rather than cover, as cover is typically a worse save.

That sharply depends on which army you play. 'Nids in ruins want you to ignore their armor!

[Nabterayl]

I believe you can put the blast over any part of any base.
That's correct. Page 33 only says that the center hole must be entirely over the base of the target model (or hull of the target vehicle) and within range of the weapon. You don't need to center the hole. Indeed, the accompanying diagram shows a non-centered hole.

[Mr Mystery]

That sharply depends on which army you play. 'Nids in ruins want you to ignore their armor!

Plasma isn't great against Nids anyway! Not high enough strength to squish the bigger bugs, and total overkill against the rest. Missile Launchers are my weapon of choice there. Frag for the tiddlers, krak to make Warriors and equivalent go pop! Only Carnifex and Tyrranofex aren't fussed by them.

[ElectricPaladin]

Plasma isn't great against Nids anyway! Not high enough strength to squish the bigger bugs, and total overkill against the rest. Missile Launchers are my weapon of choice there. Frag for the tiddlers, krak to make Warriors and equivalent go pop! Only Carnifex and Tyrranofex aren't fussed by them.

Can't argue there - I haven't had the pleasure of many games agaisnt 'Nids. I was picking a random lightly armored infantry you're unlikely to see in a vehicle. I could have said "Cadians" instead, but everyone knows you hardly ever see Cadians outside of Chimeras these days.

[Denzark]

That's correct. Page 33 only says that the center hole must be entirely over the base of the target model (or hull of the target vehicle) and within range of the weapon. You don't need to center the hole. Indeed, the accompanying diagram shows a non-centered hole.



So he's not 100% correct Nabby - the BLAST can't be over any part of the base but the CENTER HOLE can. So that is something I never knew and gives you more wiggle room - but against MEQ non-TDA bases* that still means a little under 1 and 1/2 " reach - so still not enough to bridge the 2" coherency that most players will maintain when faced with big boomers of any sort.

* I go on about MEQ as probably the most common opponent out there.

[Nabterayl]

So he's not 100% correct Nabby - the BLAST can't be over any part of the base but the CENTER HOLE can. So that is something I never knew and gives you more wiggle room - but against MEQ non-TDA bases* that still means a little under 1 and 1/2 " reach - so still not enough to bridge the 2" coherency that most players will maintain when faced with big boomers of any sort.

* I go on about MEQ as probably the most common opponent out there.
Ah, you're quite correct.

As to your question, plasma cannons are still probably the weapon of choice against T4 Sv2+ opponents. Even if each blast never hits more than one model (if it hits), you still expect 0.51 kills per BS4 shot on average over time, as compared to 0.19 kills per Cyclone salvo and 0.11 kills per storm bolter burst. Even if the target is in 4+ cover, that's almost the same. Factor in the fact that the plasma incentivizes a 2+ enemy to stay in cover (which a CML does not) and that it isn't true that each blast will never hit more than one model, and plasma cannons are shown to be the preferred weapon for busting 2+ armor. With invulnerable saves factored in, or against 3+ armor, I tend to agree that the numbers favor a CML over a plasma cannon.

[Psychosplodge]

Plus they look awesome...

[Denzark]

Ah, you're quite correct.

As to your question, plasma cannons are still probably the weapon of choice against T4 Sv2+ opponents. Even if each blast never hits more than one model (if it hits), you still expect 0.51 kills per BS4 shot on average over time, as compared to 0.19 kills per Cyclone salvo and 0.11 kills per storm bolter burst. Even if the target is in 4+ cover, that's almost the same. Factor in the fact that the plasma incentivizes a 2+ enemy to stay in cover (which a CML does not) and that it isn't true that each blast will never hit more than one model, and plasma cannons are shown to be the preferred weapon for busting 2+ armor. With invulnerable saves factored in, or against 3+ armor, I tend to agree that the numbers favor a CML over a plasma cannon.

For those that can, are plasma guns not a better bet - range trade off for 2 shots? Also I think that in terms of devastators (to digress from my point on terminators) I reckon plasma may stay last choice unless you are against heavy infantry/low mech.

Psycho - I fully acknowledge the awesomeness of their looks.

[Nabterayl]

For those that can, are plasma guns not a better bet - range trade off for 2 shots?
Against an opponent who knows what he's doing, and has the space to spread out in (different things, after all), plasma guns are probably killier. To equal the killiness of two BS4 plasma gun shots, the plasma cannon would need to hit more than two models per blast. But there is something to be said for range.

By the way, plasma cannons are not actually very inaccurate in the hands of a space marine. BS4 means you can disregard any scatter rolls of 2", 3", or 4", and the 1.5" diameter of the blast means you can also disregard scatter rolls of 5". That's without even taking into account the size of the target (vs. 40mm bases, for instance, you can also disregard scatter rolls of 6"). A 1/3 chance to hit squarely plus disregarding any scatter rolls of 2-5" gives you a 52% hit rate (=[1/3]+[2/3][10/36]) - upping that to disregarding 2-6" scatter means you're up to a 63% hit rate (=[1/3]+[2/3][16/36]), which is indistinguishable in the real world from BS4.

[Psychosplodge]

I dunno do plasma guns still "get hot" on a 1/2 if you fire two shots? Is the trade off if thats the case worth pre-cooked space marines?

[Filthspew]

The main problem is that with small blasts, you dont hit enough models.

The best time to get an effect from them is after an assault, when the survivors are more packed together, as cc screws up the formations of even the most anal of puppet placing fanatics :)

Or when they were forced to bail out of the now so paperfrail transports.
Note that this is allways fully within 3" of an access point!

[Dominic]

I find that having a plasma cannon in my army stops my opponent bunching up, yes it means I hit 1/2 at best, but in the games I don't take one you sometimes get little groups of termis group up being a statue of something silly - when you take then cannon, they don't do that ;) that's why one of my shooty Deathwing Squads will have a Plasma Cannon

and they look cool, that should be reason enough...

[Pi666]

You always can use plasma cannons to hunt vehicles. With BS4 and the size of the target, it's 4 hits almost always. And it has AP2, so +1 in the damage chart.
And they always get more than 1 hit per blast. I always find units packing in cover or avoiding dangerous or difficult terrain, or after transport explosions, or after a bad consolitaion roll in close combat, there's a lot of situations plasma cannons are really useful.

[Mr Mystery]

Against an opponent who knows what he's doing, and has the space to spread out in (different things, after all), plasma guns are probably killier. To equal the killiness of two BS4 plasma gun shots, the plasma cannon would need to hit more than two models per blast. But there is something to be said for range.

By the way, plasma cannons are not actually very inaccurate in the hands of a space marine. BS4 means you can disregard any scatter rolls of 2", 3", or 4", and the 1.5" diameter of the blast means you can also disregard scatter rolls of 5". That's without even taking into account the size of the target (vs. 40mm bases, for instance, you can also disregard scatter rolls of 6"). A 1/3 chance to hit squarely plus disregarding any scatter rolls of 2-5" gives you a 52% hit rate (=[1/3]+[2/3][10/36]) - upping that to disregarding 2-6" scatter means you're up to a 63% hit rate (=[1/3]+[2/3][16/36]), which is indistinguishable in the real world from BS4.

Plasma guns tend to be less numerous, and typically dealt with by your opponent with greater ease. Well. At least in Marine armies!

[Nabterayl]

I dunno do plasma guns still "get hot" on a 1/2 if you fire two shots? Is the trade off if thats the case worth pre-cooked space marines?
No, Gets Hot! is only on a 1, regardless of how many shots you fire.

[Psychosplodge]

Still not a plasma cannon is it?

[Wolfshade]

Still not a plasma cannon is it?

But don't forget you roll 2D6 for scatter, if they come up 1s...

[Nabterayl]

Still not a plasma cannon is it?

Well, no. While it's theoretically possible to make a plasma gun at 12" deadlier than a plasma gun at any range, in my experience players generally don't want to play at 2" coherency. Personally I think plasma cannons are an attractive choice compared to a plasma gun, at least for units that can shoot them and still accomplish their mission-oriented movement.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not uptodate on current rules...

[Spamthulhu]

I never understood them once they made you center them on a figure. In the old days you put a template where you wanted and that small blast template was useful. Now its a one shot weapon with a 1 in 3 chance to hit the spot you aim at.

If they made plasma cannons 3 shot str 7 ap2 weapons it would justify their costs. I wish they were good weapons because I love them aesthetically.

[bfmusashi]

Interesting stuff. As qualified, beyond the deepstrike, I rarely see MEQ (or anyone beyond ork masses for that matter) blobbed together so that the 1 1/2" radius template can be placed legally and get more than one. Coteaz would be an interesting dynamic for sure, as is the executioner.

There's a benefit to BS 3 and lower troops from the blast scatter. It's also fun for shooting into ruins with old tiny based Deathwing in them.

[Anggul]

Don't forget how cheap they are in Tactical Squads. For a blast with so much killing power, they're excellent for their cost. They will kill a fair amount of models, usually far outstripping what you paid for them.

[Learn2Eel]

I've found it is a way to punish people for bunching up, but also it makes its points back quickly with even a few kills - one dead Terminator pays for the weapon.
They force you to be a bit more conservative or careful, so having one is psychologically effective against your opponent.
So far though, my 'Nids are more afraid of plasma guns than plasma cannons - but silly people being silly people, apparently blast weapons are the way to beat my army :rolleyes: