DE Army.... How to expand?

[22gbloodangel]

Hiya guys.... My mate's gotten into 40k recently and needs a hand in getting his army built up. He's asked me for some help, but tbh Dark Eldar are about the least familiar race as far as I'm concerned, so thought I'd ask you for your opinions on what to get next to expand the army.

So far he's got the following:

HQ
Archon (No retinue)
Lelith Hesperax

Troops
One lot of Warriors
One lot of Wyches

Transport
Raider

Heavy Support
Talos Pain Engine
Razorwing Fighter

I've got some Harlequins he's going to take out for a spin next time as well, but I think he'd be better off going for DE dedicated units.

Now he's looking to expand a little, and I've suggested some additional peeps for his Archon court/retinue to stop him getting shot to &^*% before even starting the fight and add some additional punch, another Raider (or two) to get the squads across the battlfield quickly and in one piece, maybe a squad of Incubi for some added hitting Elites and potentially another Pain Engine, on the grounds that stopping one is a pain in the butt, but stopping 2 at the same time is a REAL issue.

I've also mentioned he needs more Troops options for taking objectives, but I think he's looking for more BANG than tactical ability. We do have a relaxed 'have a laugh between mates' attitude to gaming rather than meta gaming down the LGS so strategic value is good, but not as highly prized as the ability to say 'Hah my unit totally kicked your little behind there' :)

2 things worth noting:

1: He likes his army on the whole but he's mostly been unimpressed with the durability of the army, and he's struggled to get the squads into combat before they've been shot to hell and back. This is why I suggested more raiders to get him stuck in quickly, because I keep getting ridiculously lucky to hit and wound dice rolls against him for some reason.

2: He's mostly gaming against Necrons and Space Wolves, with the occassional Tyranids and Eldar force in there.

So have it, what would you guys add to his stack to make him less vulnerable and a little more punchy? :)

[YorkNecromancer]

A five man unit of Incubi in a Venom will deal with almost all heavy infantry armour problems - there's really not a single Necron infantry unit in the codex that would want any of what they are offering (maybe Wraiths with whip coils, but that's about it). If you give the Venom twin Splinter Cannon, it then deals with light infantry very effectively as well.

If he's tight on money, get him to paint up some Wychs in different colours, and use them as Hekatrix Bloodbrides alongside Lelith. A unit of nine Bloodbrides with three Hydra Gauntlets and Lelith will churn out something like 50+ attacks that strike first. Stick 'em in a raider and jobs a good one - so long as he hugs cover and doesn't present an easy shot.

The Pain Engine is a synergy unit - it's designed to support other units. If he's just kind of stuck it in there because he likes the model, it's wasted points. He needs a unit or three that he can stick it with.

Ravagers are always a good investment. Three Dark Lances deal with vehicles, or three Disintegrators annihilates MEQ infantry.

Scourges have excellent weapons, but are risky - they're not great in assault, and they'll get butchered by dedicated enemy assault specialists. However, a unit of five with two Haywire weapons is very good at dealing with vehicles.

He finally just needs to be aware that DE are a "glass cannon" army - they're very high skill to use well, almost entirely because of their low toughness and nonexistent armour. There's almost no ways to mitigate this either. So he needs to get very used to the idea of moving fast, hugging cover, and never, ever presenting a clear shot. Really, every unit needs to in a Raider, or else have some other way of making it into the enemy's face (webway portals for example) without foot-slogging. Foot-slogging DE are generally dead DE. He also needs to be insanely aggressive, as the army's strengths tend to be in high-initiative assaults. That's not to say that you can't do a DE gunline... it's just not going to be as good as a comparable gunline in other armies.

[eldargal]

I'd get some extra warriors and/or wyches, some Incubi and enough transports for each squad. Reaver jetbikes wouldn't go amiss too.:) Oh and a ravager or two, with dark lances.

[22gbloodangel]

Thanks for the reply Eldargal.... Damnit! I knew I'd forgotten something from the army list... Sorry, hard to do a mate's army list from memory and it's not easy without a DE Codex to work from....!

He has the Ravager, which is silly of me to forget because it's been his most succesful model to date (genuine threat to my Monolith mwggldy bwggldy).... I still think he needs to get another Raider first so that he can get his guys stuck in and disrupting the enemy lines, so well agreed with you there.

He also has the ravager jetbikes from the DE battleforce but it's less surprising I forgot those because they seem to die under a light breeze (without rain). They also seem to have the destructive capability of a brillo pad.... is there a particular loudout he should be considering for these? He really doesn't get much luck with them. And by 'much' I mean 'A complete and utter waste in points'. He tried charging them in on his 1st game, but even though he avioded making that mistake in future games, they still came out badly since. Do they have the move -> shoot -> move ability that 'normal' Eldar jetbikes do, to avoid return fire?

He really does seem to struggle with getting shot to hell and back before he can get stuck in, and with the exception of getting some more Raiders, I can't really think of anything to prevent that happening.

Thanks again for the input.... it's greatly appreciated. If it's Eldar, Marines, Necrons, or Tyranids then I'm on it. Dark Eldar are just really weird for me though, I don't have their codex and all the special weapons are well weird, and there's such a wealth of them it's hard to identify between them all.

[Houghten]

Yes, Dark Eldar jetbikes behave exactly the same as Eldar jetbikes, so they can move 2d6" in the Assault phase (except after turbo-boosting, but they can turbo-boost 36" to make up for it).

Still, if he's only got the three of them... I'd leave them off the table until they can stack up into a bigger unit.



What points value is he aiming for? A Cronos Parasite Engine would help no end with survivability as it can dole up to three pain tokens per turn. It's Heavy Support though so it would need to replace something, or be part of a second primary detachment.

[olberon]

deffo get some more raiders with -depending on his play style cc or ranged- wyches or warriors also get a haemonculi to go with the wyches pop him in the raider with wyches get wyches in CC and drop the painttoken with them a parasite engine in proximity will get the at mx tokens in no time. The haemonculi stays in the raider with a flamer template thingy (forgot its name) and is used as a mobile flamer platform.

On the jetbikes; be sure to get at least 6 of them

also ravagers wont hurt to have 3x disintegrators will help alot shooting at those damn robots!

[YorkNecromancer]

A five man unit of Incubi in a Venom will deal with almost all heavy infantry armour problems - there's really not a single Necron infantry unit in the codex that would want any of what they are offering (maybe Wraiths with whip coils, but that's about it). If you give the Venom twin Splinter Cannon, it then deals with light infantry very effectively as well.

If he's tight on money, get him to paint up some Wychs in different colours, and use them as Hekatrix Bloodbrides alongside Lelith. A unit of nine Bloodbrides with three Hydra Gauntlets and Lelith will churn out something like 50+ attacks that strike first. Stick 'em in a raider and jobs a good one - so long as he hugs cover and doesn't present an easy shot.

The Pain Engine is a synergy unit - it's designed to support other units. If he's just kind of stuck it in there because he likes the model, it's wasted points. He needs a unit or three that he can stick it with.

Ravagers are always a good investment. Three Dark Lances deal with vehicles, or three Disintegrators annihilates MEQ infantry.

Scourges have excellent weapons, but are risky - they're not great in assault, and they'll get butchered by dedicated enemy assault specialists. However, a unit of five with two Haywire weapons is very good at dealing with vehicles.

He finally just needs to be aware that DE are a "glass cannon" army - they're very high skill to use well, almost entirely because of their low toughness and nonexistent armour. There's almost no ways to mitigate this either. So he needs to get very used to the idea of moving fast, hugging cover, and never, ever presenting a clear shot. Really, every unit needs to in a Raider, or else have some other way of making it into the enemy's face (webway portals for example) without foot-slogging. Foot-slogging DE are generally dead DE. He also needs to be insanely aggressive, as the army's strengths tend to be in high-initiative assaults. That's not to say that you can't do a DE gunline... it's just not going to be as good as a comparable gunline in other armies.

[clively]

I'd say the top priority is another set of Warriors in a Raider. Then a Haemonculus or two. Followed by some Incubi and a Venom.

Once he's to that point, he'll want a couple more Venoms; good points for the mobility and shots they can put out, bad for the easy kill points they can give up.

I've found that a standard set of warriors in a raider typically kills more than it's points in marines over a game. Whenever I've used wyches, they always struggle against T4 for some reason. So lately I've been equipping them with grenades and sending them after vehicles, that seems to do the trick.

I do have a group of Harlequins, but they tend to sit on the shelf as I don't think I've figured out how to use them properly yet.

[Etagnirps]

Hey guys, mr bloodangel is talking about my army here! haha

thanks for the responses certainly helping me out with building up my army, one question however is that people have suggested getting radiers over ravagers? what would be the reason for this as the ravagers have got 3 main guns instead of 1?

I may be being completely dim here though, very new to this (although learn relatively fast !)

*EDIT* - just read the codex for the units..... ravagers can't have troops inside..... I was indeed being dim:)

thanks again for the responses though, I hate bloodangels necron army! *flail* *dropkick-a-cat*

[Sly]

Get the Baron, and a squad of Beastmasters. Along with something to use to proxy for Ravenwing flocks (since the models are so expensive).
Also, Razorwing or Void Raven are better choices than Ravagers... you can get Dark Lances elsewhere, but you can't get pie plates elsewhere, and you can't get Skyfire other than an Aegis Defense Line. Oh, and get an ADL and hide 1-2 squads of Trueborn with Dark Lances and 1-2 squads of Warriors behind them.

[Majorcrash]

I have been playing against mostly marines of various stripes, and have had some luck. Its been my expereince so far that DE need a little extra luck. But that luck is something you can make for yourself. First make sure that there is a good amount of terrain, not just the 4or 5 odd pieces. Second in my list i make of the baron and a swarm of hellions. not much in the way of inf can survive the hail of shots followed up by a close asslt. A haemonculus is a must i used two, giving a pain token to the hellions first turn. 2 units of reavers at least 5 in each unit. and dont bother with shooting upgrades just thoses that make their overrun attacks better. I have killed many a squad with not return damage. (of course after a few times your opponent will target them right away) raiders with trueborn and splinter racks for you firebase. I have used harliquins and they work great but expensive. I dont like ravagers as they get missled to death first turn, no matter how i try to hide it. The rest of the army is wyches and warriors on foot. my new list i am putting together is going to include a ftr an bomber, plus an allied detachment of chaos marines. for the fluff, fabius+ 5 chaos marines+ forgefiend. something thats durable and can pump out the shots. Good luck and take lots of prisoners :)

[olberon]

for the ravenwing flocks i used the leaves of the tree set mount them on a flight base stick paint them and they look ace !!

[22gbloodangel]

Cheers for the input everybody! Sparks has gone and invested a fair whack in 2 Raiders, 2 humonculi, a squad of Incubi, and a squad of Wyches..... speaking as an opponent the 3 pronged attack from the Raiders, backed up by the Incubi, Archon and Pain Engine with a free floating Ravager sounds a lot more scary to me than facing the last army he brought out.

Gone is the 'shoot the crap out of them whilst you can' tactic.... I'm gonna have to rely on some luck and armour saves, which is more than I've had to do before.... I'm a little bit scared of his list now if I'm perfectly honest! :P

We're arranging the next game for sometime soon, so we'll make sure that we come back and let you know how the new list gets on :)

[eldargal]

DE are very scary when handled well (and providing you use proper terrain and don't fight battles on Planet Billiard Ball). Just wait until scores of wyches start gigglestomping all your armour.:)