eternal warrior / force weapon clear up...?

[redrio]

OK, here in my local GW store there is 2 camps on this...

Can a force weapon instant kill something with eternal warrior? Some say yay, some say nay, the staff are no help and change their minds to suit circumstance.

I would say no but thought I'd put it out there

[Xas]

there are two types of force weapons:

a) those whose codex jsut reads "see rulebook". those do not. a simple glance over the force weapon and eternal warrior special rule will clarify. FW cause "instant death", EW means you give "instant death" the finger.

b) those whose codex has (old) own rules. DH/WH dexes have wordings that do not use "instant death" (because back then it didnt exist as a universal special rule) and so they can kill even EW modells with just causing one unsaved wound.

[redrio]

This is the argument I use but then they say "well if he can do it I can do it", then we get into the rules as written vs rules as intended argument and the "but if it was real..." argument...... It goes on and on. The staff should have stamped it out from day 1 of 5th ed.

Cheers for agreeing and clarifying!

[Nabterayl]

This is the argument I use but then they say "well if he can do it I can do it", then we get into the rules as written vs rules as intended argument and the "but if it was real..." argument...... It goes on and on.
There's nothing wrong with making house rules to unify the force weapon rules (personally I favor doing so), but it is a house rule. Xas correctly describes the rules as written.

[DarkLink]

The rules are what the rules are. It doesn't matter what you think the writers intended for the rule to be. The only person who can get away with that is the writer himself, and even then only in cases where the rule is unclear and hasn't been FAQ'd/errata'd.

Some force weapons inflict Instant Death.

Some force weapons 'kill outright'.

Which force weapons do which depends exclusively on which codex they come from. Until those old codecies get replaced, this will not change. You can choose to house-rule it, but as Nabteryal said, it is just a house-rule.

Besides, this is one of the few cases that my Grey Knights are better than vanilla marines :D

[trogar]

Ok not to sound like a rules lawyer but page 50 of the 5th edition rule book in the box under Froce Weapons the last sentance says "This power has no effect against vehicles, models that are immune to instant death and any other modle that does not have a wounds value." As eternal warrior grants immunity to instant death the force weapon would have no effect against the psychic power used to cause instant death. I was always told that the newest rule book out ranks an older book (in tournements at least) so older codexs should abide by this as well. Hope this helps.

[Jwolf]

Ok not to sound like a rules lawyer but page 50 of the 5th edition rule book in the box under Froce Weapons the last sentance says "This power has no effect against vehicles, models that are immune to instant death and any other modle that does not have a wounds value." As eternal warrior grants immunity to instant death the force weapon would have no effect against the psychic power used to cause instant death. I was always told that the newest rule book out ranks an older book (in tournements at least) so older codexs should abide by this as well. Hope this helps.

It helps for those Codices that don't have their own rules. Daemonhunters and Witchhunters, as mentioned above, have specific rules for Force Weapons in them, and do not follow the BRB rules.

[Aegis]

One way of looking at the difference in rules is to examine the WH/DH codex's. If you change one thing from them (i.e. how Force weapons function), then by the same logic, everything else that has been updated should be changed as well (unit costs, stock builds, etc.). Basically, you cannot pick and choose which to follow and which not to. All or nothing, as it were.

[RogueGarou]

Until the Space Wolves Codex released, our group has been using a houserule to cover things that were updated for loyal Marines only. For example, the Narthecium grants Feel No Pain so a Deathwing Apothecary equipped with a Narthecium grants Feel No Pain to his squad. New Land Raider specs had them carrying twelve models so we had played it as all loyal stock Land Raiders benefited from the higher capacity and improved Machine Spirit. This also carried over to other upgraded equipment such as Storm Shields. Our group is perfectly OK with this and everyone thought the new rules would be incorporated as Codicii were revised.

I do NOT play loyal Marines and I pretty vigorously argued that Chaos Marines should not get the new rules, where they could be applied. For the increased capacity, I feel that the older Land Raiders probably in use with the Traitor Legions have bigger, more comfortable accommodations compared to the bench seats the loyal Chapters have upgraded to over the past ten thousand years. Imagine the difference between first class and coach seating on an airplane. :) It could also be imagined that the Renegades are using up more space for trophies, spiky bits and the like so only ten Marines can ride. Besides, as individual and egotistical as Chaos Marines can be, and probably paranoid if they have a suit of Terminator armor, they might not want to rub elbows with their comrades.

However, this house rule may need to be rescinded since the Space Wolves Codex released and some of the upgrades were not incorporated. For instance, the Wolves Codex still lists the stock Land Raider as carrying ten models. Unfortunately for our Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templar players, we may decide they have to go back to using just what is in their respective Codicii since it looks like not all equipment will be created equal.

But as has been stated above, this was just a house rule. It was also a rule we decided on back when there were items with multiple rules depending on the Codex, like Bionics. We never adjusted the points cost, just used the most recent version of the rules. It was absolutely not official but since we primarily just play friendly games, it suited us just fine.

[Ironwinds]

One way of looking at the difference in rules is to examine the WH/DH codex's. If you change one thing from them (i.e. how Force weapons function), then by the same logic, everything else that has been updated should be changed as well (unit costs, stock builds, etc.). Basically, you cannot pick and choose which to follow and which not to. All or nothing, as it were.


Wasn't there a thing called chapter approved back in the day that cleared up all or at least attempted to clear up all of the little things when 4th came out? It didn't change every unit costs, stock builds, etc. It just changed rule differences. Where is Chapter approved 2009 I ask. I think it is needed more than the last one was.

Or at least some FAQs and Erratas. DH, DE, and Necrons have huge problems in their dexs because of rule irregularities. If it was codex SMs that had these problems they would get a new codex tomarrow... everyone else just wants an errata or update.

[Kanaellars]

Personally, our group has always played that Eternal Warrior stops Instant Death, EVEN by weapons whose rule does not specifically say "INSTANT DEATH", IE, the old Force Weapons.

The reason for this.... it is fairly blatantly obvious that the only reason the old Force Weapons dont say INSTANT DEATH is because back then, there was no INSTANT DEATH.

The meaning isnt very vague, like some RAI vs RAW is, its pretty clear what was intended, the wording has just varied over the years.

[daboarder]

does that mean your group also plays with deamonhunters getting heavy 4 assualt cannons, and everyone else having acess to 3+ save storm shields as its also farely obvious that their the same thing.

[Kanaellars]

does that mean your group also plays with deamonhunters getting heavy 4 assualt cannons, and everyone else having acess to 3+ save storm shields as its also farely obvious that their the same thing.

actually, it does.... as well as paying the most recent cost.

[Aegis]

actually, it does.... as well as paying the most recent cost.

That is at least fair. I know of too many people who demand DH and WH get the updated rules for Force Weapons, but still have to use the worse versions of other items...

[SeattleDV8]

The reason for this.... it is fairly blatantly obvious that the only reason the old Force Weapons dont say INSTANT DEATH is because back then, there was no INSTANT DEATH.

The meaning isnt very vague, like some RAI vs RAW is, its pretty clear what was intended, the wording has just varied over the years.

Sorry thats not true, there was instant death in fourth ed. and all force weapons 'Slayed outright.
If they wanted all force weapons to have the instant death rule it would have been easily put in the FAQ's for 5th ED. They were not, BRB tells us that if a weapon in a codex, that is different from the BRB, the codex takes precedence.
I find nothing that shows 'clearly' what the intent is.
Of course if your group wishes to play with house rules that is fine, just remember that they are house rules when playing outside your group.

[DarkLink]

I agree with Seattle. I always find it dubious when someone claims to know the intent of the codex writer (after making that mistake once myself, about Arhiman using multiple psychic powers). RAI IS RAW. The only "intentions" of the rules writers that we actually know is what is written in the rulebooks. Unless you've talked with the rules writer person and they've told you "yeah, that rule didn't come out how I intended", you don't know what the intent was, you just think you do.

Anyway, ranting aside, I'd be happy to play my Grand Master's Force Weapon as causing Instant Death rather than "killing outright", so long as I get good assault cannons (ok, so my gaming group lets me use these anyways) and 3+ Invulnerable Saves.

[trogar]

It helps for those Codices that don't have their own rules. Daemonhunters and Witchhunters, as mentioned above, have specific rules for Force Weapons in them, and do not follow the BRB rules.

Ah I forget the rules for those. The one guy I knew that played them I haven't seen in over 2 years now, and he wasn't fun to play against, liked to arguee over basic rules.

[BuFFo]

there are two types of force weapons:

a) those whose codex jsut reads "see rulebook". those do not. a simple glance over the force weapon and eternal warrior special rule will clarify. FW cause "instant death", EW means you give "instant death" the finger.

b) those whose codex has (old) own rules. DH/WH dexes have wordings that do not use "instant death" (because back then it didnt exist as a universal special rule) and so they can kill even EW modells with just causing one unsaved wound.

Xas is 100% correct.

This situation is as simple as Xas explained it.

...

Don't over complicate a simple situation.

[MarshalAdamar]

I have to say Xas is correct.

Point is that new force weapons cause "Instant death" and some older ones don't use that wording and so they nerf eternal warrior.

House rules are great but they are slippery slope.

When you get into "Well GW Meant this or that" its gets muddy fast.

Case in point storm shields, I play Black Templars and we get nerfed on that. So you say, they should be the same.

OK, but my smoke launchers say that all penetrating hits are down graded to glances, and there is no rule that I can't be obscured to boot so BT can have a +4 invul save AND still get a penning hit downgraded. So you say, they should be the same.

BT Venerable dreadnaughts are only WS4 BS4, WOOOOOAAAAA you say, I'm sorry that’s the way they are in your codex!

So if you get nerfed with say 50pt Rhinos, or WS4 BS4 Ven dreads, with out the super cool extra weapons load outs or TL heavy flamers for your Razorbacks or even BS2 POTMS. That’s tough because it’s in your codex that way?

But if you have super cool force weapons they must be the same as the new ones cause the should?

I think the law of unintended consequences takes over. Let’s say you equalize only the war gear. That still gives rise to things like a 10 man assault squad with storm shields for 5pts a model. That’s right deep striking assault marines that re roll all failed rolls to hit (BT) that have a 3+ invul save.

Because certain codices have lower points values for certain things. I think just let sleeping dogs lie.

How old does a codex have to be to get the super cool force weapons? I think that that codex probably has plenty of built in handicaps because of the age.

[Melissia]

And I'd agree. For example, inquisitors suck for their price. No, they really do, in fact it's not even the inquisitors that are that useful, it's the retinues, and they're oftentimes GEQ or worse, making them insanely fragile. So they make up for that with powerful weaponry. Big deal, just shoot 'em and prevent them from getting in melee in the first place.

Grandmasters pay for this in ludicrous points cost in an already extremely points expensive army.

[Aegis]

Why must everyone rag on my poor CC Inquisitor... He works for me! Though, even with a CC Inq. Lord, I never bother with Force weapons. If you are running one, you really do not want him taking on other HQ's or dedicated assault units, so rarely will you deal with a model with more than one wound. Besides, Scourging is fun.

[DarkLink]

And I'd agree. For example, inquisitors suck for their price. No, they really do, in fact it's not even the inquisitors that are that useful, it's the retinues, and they're oftentimes GEQ or worse, making them insanely fragile. So they make up for that with powerful weaponry. Big deal, just shoot 'em and prevent them from getting in melee in the first place.

Grandmasters pay for this in ludicrous points cost in an already extremely points expensive army.

Actually Grand Masters are cheap for what you get. You're basically a Captain (with WS 5) with a Relic Blade and Terminator Armor (and a Force Weapon). And that's for 145pts. Getting a Captain with Relic Blade and Terminator Armor is iirc 155pts, and that doesn't include the Force Weapon.

Powered armor Grey Knights are way overpriced though, particularly compared to Chaos Cult Troops. Grey Knight special rules need a big boost:(.



But, yeah, CC Inquisitor Lords are really bad. Anything they can do Grey Knights can do much better.

[Xas]

Is this really still about force weapons? :)

Even though I'm in the boat of people who like to "update" their DH/WH codex with new wargear (the EW slaying force weapon helps to sell those update to most people :D) the last postings have made me think.

what I'm wondering now is how far "new" wargear is supposed to carry over without indirectly nerfing the plain marine codex because everyone else gets all the shiney stuff AND nice special rules in addition.

one hint of this is how transports in codex:space wolves only carry 10 models while they canc arry 12 in codex:ultramarines ...

what do you think?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'm wondering why this thread is still around... Oh, wait, I'm helping keeping it alive... huh, ackward...


Anyways, if you use the new stuff like 3+ Storm Shields, it's only fair to also use new Force Weapons. You don't get to keep your cake and eat it, too. Or however that saying goes:o.