Question RE: Chaplains

[Schultzhoffen]

Am I mistaken or is a 'Bare-bones' Chaplain better that one in Terminator armour?

As far as I can see the ordinary Chaplain has 2 Attacks (+1 for Bolt Pistol for 3 Attacks), 3+/4+ save.

For 30 points more I get a 2+/4+ save, a Storm Bolter (whoop-di-do) and a base 2 attacks only.

Am I missing something? Why the hell would I get a Terminator Chaplain?

Pity, as the model is nice.

[DarkLink]

For 30 pts, you loose one attack, but gain a 2+ armor save, a storm bolter and the ability to deepstrike.

One attack isn't a big deal, especially if it is just an initiative 4 power weapon attack. What makes chaplains good is not their personal ability in close combat, but Litanies of Hate. It is an entirely viable strategy to deepstrike in terminators with an attached chaplain. For some people, the 30pts isn't a problem, because it allows them to take advantage of the chaplains other abilities.

[Nabterayl]

Am I mistaken or is a 'Bare-bones' Chaplain better that one in Terminator armour?

As far as I can see the ordinary Chaplain has 2 Attacks (+1 for Bolt Pistol for 3 Attacks), 3+/4+ save.

For 30 points more I get a 2+/4+ save, a Storm Bolter (whoop-di-do) and a base 2 attacks only.

Am I missing something? Why the hell would I get a Terminator Chaplain?

Pity, as the model is nice.
Well, the terminator chaplain has a 2+ armor save instead of a 3+, and it can deep strike. Whether those advantages are worth losing the ability to sweeping advance and the extra attack are up to you.

[Schultzhoffen]

My Chaplain runs with a Terminator Assault Squad in a LRC. He wears no T Armour. I find the 30 points could be better spent elsewhere.

However, point taken about Deep Strike. I just don't like the idea of DSing Assault Terminators.

[Katie Drake]

The main advantage is the 2+ save over the 3+ one. Deep Strike is 'meh' at best. Each person needs to decide if they're willing to spend the points on extra protection, especially since there are so many cons to the approach. Overall, I think a Chaplain in power armor is a better buy. Vanguard without jump packs in a Land Raider of some kind accompanied by a Chaplain can be more deadly than Terminators - the ability to run down breaking enemies is really good.

[emperorsaxe]

I think it depends on what you're using the chappie for. As to the deep strike I see that as a trade off versus the jump pack, which also allows you to deep strike. Plus the JP allows for quicker movement around the tabletop. Put a jump pack chappie with VVG SM's or with regular ASM's and it becomes one brutal close combat. While the termie chappie is a cool lookin' mini it is somewhat limited. Yes it is in termie armor but out of a squad of 5 CA termies will you have left to strike with? Especially since most CA termies I see runnin' around have a TH & SS combo which means you'll going last in the CC phase. Yeah, yeah I know they have termie armor with the 2+ save but the question then becomes how many ones can you roll for saves? Don't know but I think I'll be stayin' with the jump pack chappie and VVG SM's. Just my two bolter rounds worth tho'.
Respects, Emperorsaxe

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'd agree that the Jump Pack Chaplain is better than a Terminator Chaplain.

[lobster-overlord]

As a Blood Angel player, I've always used the stock Chap with minimal additions (jump packs and plasmas as needed) for the litanies and the Blood Rage negation (the have to keep moving part). That made my Death Company insane under 4th ed (reroll to hits with rending... genius). Not so much useful with rending on the wound and not the hit now, but I still run them for their usefulness to other units than their own power in battle.

[Aldramelech]

I have the Terminator Chaplin, not because of saves or anything, I just had to have that model!

[eagleboy7259]

Yeah, I'd agree that the Jump Pack Chaplain is better than a Terminator Chaplain.

I'd like to disagree, yeah the chappy keeps his +1 attack for pistol and cc and increases his movement but like they said earlier the high point of the chappy isn't the chappy himself, it's the benefit that he confers to the squad he leads. Assault squads are meh in assault at best, Vanguard are better but really you're just helping to swing that relic blade. Terminators and Assault Terminators are really the dedicated assault specialist in the SM army and they stand to benefit most from having the Chappy with them so the Terminator Chappy is probably your safest bet.

[Katie Drake]

Terminators and Assault Terminators are really the dedicated assault specialist in the SM army and they stand to benefit most from having the Chappy with them so the Terminator Chappy is probably your safest bet.

But what does the Chaplain gain that's worth so many extra points? If his job is to augment a unit of Assault Terminators, why does he need Terminator armor to do it? He loses an attack, costs more points, takes up more space in a transport and gains 2+ save over his 3+ one. That seems like a lot of cons for a single pro.

[MarshalAdamar]

The space in the transport is mute, you can have 7 terminators and one chap in a LRC, OR you can have 7 terminators and one chap in TA in one LRC. But the point is still valid that puting him in TA is not incredibly cost effective.

The only real reason to put him in TA is to deep strike the unit.

I guess the other reason is wound cheese. A Chappy with two or three wounds and a 2+/4+ can be the first to take a bullet for the team, so you automatically soak one wound helping to cut down casualties because even if he takes an unlucky wound your still in the fight with a full compliment of termiators.

[DarkLink]

I'd like to disagree, yeah the chappy keeps his +1 attack for pistol and cc and increases his movement but like they said earlier the high point of the chappy isn't the chappy himself, it's the benefit that he confers to the squad he leads. Assault squads are meh in assault at best, Vanguard are better but really you're just helping to swing that relic blade. Terminators and Assault Terminators are really the dedicated assault specialist in the SM army and they stand to benefit most from having the Chappy with them so the Terminator Chappy is probably your safest bet.

Well, what you give the Chaplain depends on what unit you want him with, and you don't need terminator armor to put him with a terminator squad. If you want him with an assault squad (or to jump from squad to squad as needed), give him a jump pack. If you want him with terminators, you can just leave him naked (unless you're deepstriking them).

[eagleboy7259]

I was just trying to disprove that the jump pack is really the best layout for the Chappy. Having the terminator armor really just helps in the tournament setting if you are using him to lead some terminators because you have the choice of either going in the LR or deep striking whereas running him naked forces him to slog it with the terminators or ride in the transport. If you have some foresight into what you intend to do with him then naked is just fine then because DS might not be part of your plans.

[Katie Drake]

Couldn't the Chaplain Deep Strike along with the Terminators if he had a jump pack? I mean... sure, it'd be kinda weird fluff-wise, but it'd be possible wouldn't it?

... not to say it'd be tactically viable.

[Schultzhoffen]

As I said, I run a naked Chaplain with Assault Terminators in a LRC. I also prefer to have 2 with Lightning Claws and 4-6 with TH/SSs. 8 attacks rerolling hits and wounds are a useful strike v I4 and under before the THs do their thing.

My main opponents are Plague Marines (I3) and Orks (I3/4) or other SM (I4).

I find LCs to be very useful.

On balance, JPacks are good but Assault Marines don't make much of an Attack unit (and Vanguard become very expensive if they are to be effective). A chaplain with Termintors is better (in my opinion, anyway).

[emperorsaxe]

Couldn't the Chaplain Deep Strike along with the Terminators if he had a jump pack? I mean... sure, it'd be kinda weird fluff-wise, but it'd be possible wouldn't it?

... not to say it'd be tactically viable.

He could, but where it gets ify is if the Termies are teleporting near a teleport homer, the termies would land within the 6" but the chappie would have to still roll for deep strike because he has a jump pack. The ONLY way around this is to have scout bikes on the field with a locator beacon then this maneuver could be pulled off. But that means you have to burn points for the scout bikes and the locator beacon upgrade. Just my two bolter rounds worth tho'.
Respects, Emperorsaxe

[eagleboy7259]

Huh... theres no rule for mixed Deep Striking? I guess a jump pack chappy could lead terminators and just give up his movement bonus... I'd never thought about it since I always considered it to be illegal.

[Katie Drake]

He could, but where it gets ify is if the Termies are teleporting near a teleport homer, the termies would land within the 6" but the chappie would have to still roll for deep strike because he has a jump pack. The ONLY way around this is to have scout bikes on the field with a locator beacon then this maneuver could be pulled off. But that means you have to burn points for the scout bikes and the locator beacon upgrade. Just my two bolter rounds worth tho'.
Respects, Emperorsaxe

No, your two bolter rounds are exactly right, I'd think. The rule does get a bit sketchy when you throw teleport homers and such into the mix... ah well. I'd have to assume that if any models in the Deep Striking unit aren't able to teleport, then none of the models in the unit would be able to take advantage of the homer. That being said, it's probably not exactly the wisest idea or best use of a jump pack equipped Chaplain... unless you want a way of getting your jump Chaplain close to enemy lines unscathed, that is! Hey, you could Deep Strike in and hide inside the unit of Terminators until your next turn, where the Chaplain could use his jump pack to leave the unit and either join another one or go charge something on his own.

*adds this to the list of funny and unorthodox things she needs to try sometime*

[Schultzhoffen]

The only thing is, though, why would you want the Chaplain to leave the unit? The Chaplain is hardly a powerful CC character, no more than useful v Squads and no match v Enemy ICs (in general). The advantage lies in the squad buff (Litanies of Hate! I refuse to call it Liturgies of Battle..what the hell?).

The only possible reason would be to run down fleeing enemies but the Chaplain's I is only 4 (not so good V Eldar) and SMs have ATSKNF (it may be useful at times but the cons outweigh the pro). Besides, why Deep Stike Assault Terminators? They may come in late and then spend a turn looking tough and poking their tongues out at the enemy. Seems an inefficient use of an expensive unit to me.

The damage a Chaplain led Terminator Assault squad (with a mix of Lightning Claws and TH/SSs) in a LRC can dish out is quite frightening (there usually isn't much left to run down if that lot hits home). Yes, an expensive squad but when fielding Terminators you may as well go all out or nothing at all.

A naked Chaplain is still the most effective, points efficient HQ Marines have (generally ignoring Special Characters, that is).

[emperorsaxe]

Huh... theres no rule for mixed Deep Striking? I guess a jump pack chappy could lead terminators and just give up his movement bonus... I'd never thought about it since I always considered it to be illegal.

You're correct in that there are no rules for 'mixed' deep strike but that is kind of a misnomer in that it is more of a game mechanic more than anything. What you could do is deep strike within 6" of a locator beacon with both the termies and the JP chappie and then attach the chappie at the end of the movement phase but before the firing phase starts. However I not would recommend this WITHOUT the use of the aforementioned locator beacon. If you teleport the termies in with a teleport homer then the chappie would still have to roll for deep strike and if he scatters or Emperor forbid a deep strike mishap takes place then that blows that tactic off the table. Same would go for 'naked' deep striking (hmmm there's a joke in there somewhere :) ). IE without a teleport homer or locator beacon. However just my two bolter rounds worth tho'.
Respects, Emperorsaxe

[Maturin]

Instead of a termie Chaplain, has anyone tried Cassius? He costs the same as a termie chaplain, but with Toughness 6 and a heavy flamer.....it's hard to beat (in theory).

[eagleboy7259]

Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone actually use one of the special character chaplains...