Home Brew and the scratch build a dying art?

[Mr Mystery]

Good evening my lovelies! Hope today finds you well!

Now then, let's crack on.

Once upon a time, when I was just a lesser Mystery, the pages of White Dwarf, and armies of my contemporaries were replete with conversions, home brewed units and scratch built models.

Now sadly, the latter two of those appear to be falling by the way side. This would of course be due to increasingly complete models ranges, and overall wider unit choice. Most things described by the background have, or have had models. Not a bad thing in itself, but I believe it has had the unfortunate side affect of reducing originality.

Attempts have been made to in some way institutionalise scratch built and home brewed, in the guise of the old vehicle design rules, Tyranid design rules, and to some extent the previous Tyranid codex. All worthy efforts which sadly did not survive contact with the enemy, as some hobbyists arguable missed the point, simply sought to make the hardest thing they could. Although a minority, they sadly sullied the efforts of all making use of the rules.

Some might feel the rise of formalised, tournament style play has played it's part, but although this would account for the home brew (understandable) sight of many tournament armies kind of proved this is no barrier to heavy conversion and the occasional scratch build!

So have you seen these aspects fall by the way side, or my experience less typical? Would you and yours allow home brew stuff? Perhaps you fear a VDR type debacle where the unit has no tactical hole to be exploited, or has simply been designed to cover a wider, deliberate gap of the army design?

[Denzark]

MM

I find scratch built survives - but for my apocalypse where (in my personal experience) I am building stuff where there is no model for the rules - either an old epic vehicle, or something the BoLS Lord of Battle Play Aid threw out.

Home brewed units are like home brewed rules - near impossible to do balanced - unless you use an exisitng set of rules. Then you are doing counts as really. I think conversions and scratch built terrain is the most you will get from 'official' GW nowadays.

[imperialpower]

I also only do scratch built models for apocalypse since for me that is what that kind of game is all about where as in typical games of 40k I stick to the GW range of models just for ease of play and when I do have to convert all the new melon headed Cadian based characters into Praetorians/Valhallans I make sure to match the wargear to the models rules.

[LordGrise]

I was a modeler as a kid, Lego in particular, but plastic models as well. I kitbashed a Federation class starship at the tender age of nine, because they didn't make a kit for it - at least not that I could find. Fast-forward (God help me) thirty-odd years, and I play Tau. The Tau have that high-tech sci-fi vibe that I love, and a flavor kinda reminiscent of Star Trek, at least in that they are the only race that is inclusive of other species. There is such a thing as too grimdark, and I think 40K went there a long time ago - it puts an awful lot of potential players off that Humanity is doomed, and the entire game is all about staving off the inevitable.

In particular, I love the concept of Commander Farsight and the Damocles Enclaves - human Gue'vasa meant I could enclude almost anything from the IG range, the enormous battlefields of the Damocles Crusade meant all kinds of wrecked stuff could be found (Space Marines), and what little fluff there is about Farsight indicate that he is somewhat strapped for resources - thereby justifying Tau-ifying (read, modding, kitbashing, and outright scratchbuilding) just about anything I want, right? It's a game, I'll be reasonable, everybody will be cool, right?

Hoo boy. Very, very minor mods, (emblem changes) no problem; but more than that, and it's a different story. I took the chin mounted burst cannon off of a Devilfish and relocated it to the top mount, modded the actual hatch assembly and mounted it in the chin as a sensor unit, and folks said it was cool - of course, I lost almost four inches range, but it looked good, and it fitted my mechanized army for 5th edition. Great.

Then 6th edition and flyers came out. Did you know that the Sky Ray does not have skyfire? (Yet. Just wait. It'll be in the New Codex! Yep, it's coming out any year now...) Nor do Seeker missiles. I suggested that my Devilfish be allowed to engage flyers, and asked what point cost would be deemed reasonable. Heresy! I offered to pay the points of a Skyray, just count the burst cannon as a single long-barrel from the Hammerhead variant, which is R36 6/4 A6. You Can't Do That! It's not in the Book! I pointed out that otherwise, my opponent would be fielding a unit that that could only be touched on a 6. Well, I can do that. It's Legal.

My 40K experience is not extensive; I've only ever played around San Antonio. I love the modeling end of this hobby; I'm not a good painter, but I am good at seeing what can be wrought and how to do it. But even the simplest modifications draw reluctance at best. Creativity, it seems, is laudable as long as it is cosmetic only, acceptable as long as it confers a disadvantage to the owner, and otherwise not welcome, no matter how many points over the odds you are willing to pay.

[eldargal]

People who enjoy scratch building and converting will scratch build and convert, those who don't wont. I don't think having gaps in model ranges really encouraged people to convert/scratch build more, in my experience they just proxied things.

When it comes to custom rules it does seem that far too many people are completely dependent on GW for instructions even when GW frequently encourage people to make up their own rules, units and houserules etc. Hell getting people to realise that the mysterious terrain rules in the WFB 8th edition book are optional is like pulling teeth sometimes. I remember on another forum that shall remain nameless I suggested to someone who was having problems with the Steadfast rule that they could houserule it and they reacted like I suggested fornication with a chicken.

There isn't much you can do about it sadly, some people want to actually enjoy the hobby for what it is, a hobby. Others just want to set narrow parameters within which they can try and become the Best. Custom rules, houserules etc all just add more variables which make it harder for them to do that. Not to mention why fix issues with the ruleset when you can blame those rules and not the fact you suck for your losses.:rolleyes:

[Anggul]

Some things work out well scratch-built, others not so much. I think the thing that deters people is that it's a lot harder to make something scratch-built look good than it is just kitbashing existing kits. Some things just require it though. The only really good-looking Mycetic Spore I've ever seen (and that actually resembles the picture in the codex, which I am a massive fan of), was scratch-built by making a wire frame then glue-gunning in rows over the frame to make the ribs, then adding Tyranid bits, a layer to cover the gaps and painting. It was simple, quick and looked good, but took ingenuity. I probably would never have thought of it had I not seen that guy do it.

As for homebrew rules, they can be made well, but for some reason many people don't really grasp the rules compatibility and points pricing systems very well, often leading to units which are overly complicated, don't fit in with the overall game or are just plain under/overpriced. It's always easier, of course, if you already have a similar unit to base such things upon. People have a habit of inventing new rules and units when the better option would be to fix the ones that already exist but aren't very good. For example, I have seen a few homebrew Tyranid and Eldar codices, but most of them just make up loads of new things instead of addressing the issues already present in the current ones. For example, I wouldn't invent a whole new flamer unit, I would fix the Pyrovore (and indeed I have worked on a Tyranid codex-fix of my own to solve the myriad problems with it so we aren't just using the same few great units and ignoring half the rest of the codex). Similarly, rather than making up some random backstory about how a Wych Cult joined a Craftworld and merged fighting styles to make a new aspect and giving a vague and tenuous explanation for why which doesn't really make sense, I would update the Harlequin rules.

[Denzark]

EG - the problem with houserules is giving special rules to units. As there is no central cost to the USRs it is very hard to make it balanced - beyond profile and equipment.

[eldargal]

It's not that hard, it just takes some playtesting and common sense. Always best to err on the side of overpricing for the sake of balance though.

[Mr Mystery]

I agree with EG. Far better some homebrew is priced a bit high. I mean, consider the various homebrew codecies out there espousing to have 'improved' the army, typically by simply upping the power and lowering the points across the board, and introducing largely arbitrary special rules. That should be simply the starting point, and followed up by lots and lots of open playtesting.

I once tried to adapt the (very) old Tyranid Epic army formation to 40k. Essentially, you started with a Synapse creature hex, which had a number of offshoots (bigger the gribbly, the more it could command). I'm still confident that this could be applied to 40k quite successfully, if only enough people committed to helping work out any unperceived kinks (and as GW have proven, no amount of playtesting will ever survive release. The number of games played goes up exponentially!) and get a decent alternative going for us.

But there seems to be a lack of will to join in, often because as LordGrise mentioned, too few gaming groups are open to houserule play testing. :(

[Denzark]

I would agree however whenever I look at people's homebrews on here, it always seems they neglect to overcost or balance. Cue 3 pages of 'helpful suggetions' telling them to tone it down and me writing off homebrew. I think the usefulness peaked with the BoLS play aids - lords of battle. They managed to make balanced, well costed units.

[LordGrise]

Hey, folks, let's put it to the test! I submit my modded Devilfish; Base Devilfish 80pts, Smart missile system (R24 5/5 A4, +20pts), Burst Cannon removed from the chin (R18 5/5 A3) and replaced with a single-mount Long-Barrel Burst Cannon (R36 6/4 A6, +10 pts, suggested costing extrapolated from the Hammerhead mod out of the FW download of a few months back, which is +15 pts for a twin-linked pair of these) mounted center top of vehicle, 360 degree arc of fire.

Chin turret is replaced by a sensor suite to represent the Targeting Array (+1 Ballistic skill, +5 pts from the book), a Blacksun filter (grants Night Fighting rule, +5 pts from the book), a Target Lock (Each weapon on the vehicle may fire at a separate enemy unit, subject to normal line of sight rules, +5 pts) and a Multi-tracker (fire as a fast skimmer, +10 pts) totals up to 135 pts. I offered to pay the point cost of an equivalently loaded out Sky Ray, which would be 125pts base + 45 points of wargear for a total of 170 points. Thoughts?

EDIT: I forgot to add that I was still claiming a transport capability of 6, which is a minimum Fire Warrior team. Standard is 12. Sorry...

[LordGrise]

Looks like I killed the thread. Apologies...

[Phototoxin]

I think its the prevalent tournament attitude - theres always the risk that you'll face THAT GUY who points out that your drop pods/mycetic spores/whatever is 4.37% larger/smaller/thinner/different than the official model. Then theres issues of official models sucking epic bawls (new warshrine? FFS the bottom isn't even detailed!) but it's much bigger than anything you'd sensibly think to scratchbuild (EG a chariot with a shrine on it or corpse cart or the like)
I have scratchbuilt my own treeman, plaguetower, and hellcannons (they're not finished yet). I've kitbashed obliterators and the like. Sometimes its the only way to make things affordable (£70 for 2 hellcannons... errrrrr nooooooooo!)
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/10/14/281648_md-Barrel%2C%20Cannon%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Hellcannon%2C%2 0Khorne.jpg - as I say not finished but close enough at the moment.

[Fizzybubela]

I like your Hellcannons. I'm not much of a fan of the Obliterators and Mutilators which is why I'm going to use Cataphractii armour for them with pre heresy weapons on them.

[Mr Mystery]

I think that when it comes to Tournaments, scratch building and conversions do need to be more restricted, simply because there are those who model for advantage, however much of a minority they are.

But in open gaming, I feel it should be a definite option open to all!

[Denzark]

I think its the prevalent tournament attitude - theres always the risk that you'll face THAT GUY who points out that your drop pods/mycetic spores/whatever is 4.37% larger/smaller/thinner/different than the official model. Then theres issues of official models sucking epic bawls (new warshrine? FFS the bottom isn't even detailed!) but it's much bigger than anything you'd sensibly think to scratchbuild (EG a chariot with a shrine on it or corpse cart or the like)
I have scratchbuilt my own treeman, plaguetower, and hellcannons (they're not finished yet). I've kitbashed obliterators and the like. Sometimes its the only way to make things affordable (£70 for 2 hellcannons... errrrrr nooooooooo!)
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/10/14/281648_md-Barrel%2C%20Cannon%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Hellcannon%2C%2 0Khorne.jpg - as I say not finished but close enough at the moment.

Are those Helcannons actually urine sample bottles?

[Fizzybubela]

I think they are.

[gwensdad]

I get "unofficial" crap for the scratchbuilt titans I've used and for my lucius-pattern droppod-which was built from the old old White Dwarf article but HEY! It's not FW so you you're a evil person because you can't afford resin.
(Of course, that's from the group I stopped hanging with.)

[LordGrise]

I dislike playing with members of the 'Legitimacy" police myself; for some reason they tend to go into verbal spasms whenever I start talking about my projects past and present - and this is after I ask for their input on points pricing...