[Question] Wolf Guards

[Lednera]

Ok guys I need a quick clarification with my theorycraft.

I choose to take 10 Wolf Guards as either Elites or Troops if I got the right HQ for that based on how I read the information I could in theory choose to give part of my wolf guards Terminator Armor while the rest are left in power armor and then after I do this I choose to attach the wolf guards to other troops per the rules. Second part to my theory question is if you can do this can you then in addition add an IC Character to a pack that has a wolf guard buddy?

Example:
Elite 1 Wolf Guard Pack (10 Man)
5 Terminator Wolf Guards
5 Power Armor Wolf Guards

[Herald of Nurgle]

1) It is either Elites (WITHOUT the HQ) or Troops ONLY (with the HQ).
2) Yes you can mix the two types - and the Power Armoured guys count for the purposes of Termie Heavy Weapons!
3) You could indeed add an IC, and the Wolf Guard will benefit from their special rules (so that TH/SS guy has 2+1+D3 attacks if Ragnar and squad charge, at Strength 9!)

[Nabterayl]

2) Yes you can mix the two types - and the Power Armoured guys count for the purposes of Termie Heavy Weapons!
Just to be clear, HoN is saying that for every five wolf guard (no matter what kind of armor they're wearing), one wolf guard in terminator armor can take a terminator heavy weapon. You don't have to have five wolf guard terminators to get a terminator heavy weapon, just five wolf guard - but you still can't give terminator heavy weapons to wolf guard in power armor.

[Lednera]

cool, follow up question can wolf guard in terminator armor ride a rhino or razorback since it appears that they can ride drop pods?

[Nabterayl]

No. See page 61 - "Models in terminator armor count as two models for the purposes of transport capacity, and cannot embark Rhinos or Razorbacks."

[Lednera]

is that page reference to 5th Edition Core Book, Space Marine Codex or Space Wolves Codex?

[Lednera]

found it, i got a more important question now. For the purpose of Kill Points when you split Wolf Guard to lead other units do they count as the same kill point as the unit they joined, they unit they started from or do each wolf guard split count as a single kill point?

[Nabterayl]

There isn't a clear answer to this question. My own thought is that wolf guard are only worth kill points if they are their own unit in an actual game. So if you had three wolf guard, each attached to a different grey hunter squad, that would be three kill points - one for each GH squad plus its attached wolf guard.

My reasoning is this: the kill point rules tell us that each enemy "unit" completely destroyed is worth 1 KP. Wolf guard attached to a squad are, for all gameplay purposes, part of that squad. Hence I see no reason to treat them as a separate KP.

However, the kill point rules also tell us that a "character" and his "retinue" are each worth 1 KP. We might think this means that a wolf guard attached to a squad is a separate KP. He is, after all, a "character," right? An upgrade character rather than an independent character, but a character all the same, right? I don't think so, and the reason that I don't is that the rulebook only ever discusses "retinues" in the context of ICs. Hence I think it is reasonable to assume that the kill point rules are referring to independent characters being worth 1 KP, apart from their retinues.

If somebody wants to play the other way (that attached wolf guard are worth 1 KP, as upgrade characters, and their attached squads are worth 1 KP, as retinues), remind them that the exact same logic applies to all squad leaders. If a space marine veteran sergeant (the quintessential example of an upgrade character, per page 47) doesn't count as a "character" for KP purposes (and everybody seems agreed that it doesn't, even though the sergeant is a "character"), then a wolf guard attached to a squad wouldn't count as a "character" for KP purposes either.

[DarkLink]

found it, i got a more important question now. For the purpose of Kill Points when you split Wolf Guard to lead other units do they count as the same kill point as the unit they joined, they unit they started from or do each wolf guard split count as a single kill point?

They become part of the other unit, so they count for that unit's kill point, not the wolf guard killpoint or as their own kill point.

It can also be argued that, since they are an elite unit (normally, anyways), and they are only attached to whatever other unit they join, that if a Grey Hunter squad is reduced to only the wolf guard sargent, the squad is no longer scoring. I'm not sure if I would support that argument, but how exactly they attach to the other squads (and the implications thereof) is not clearly defined for the purposes of some rules.

[Herald of Nurgle]

found it, i got a more important question now. For the purpose of Kill Points when you split Wolf Guard to lead other units do they count as the same kill point as the unit they joined, they unit they started from or do each wolf guard split count as a single kill point?
If the entire choice of Wolf Guard are killed, then a KP is given. If even a single Wolf Guard from that choice remains, then the KP is not surrendered.
Just remember to be sure where each Wolf Guard comes from...

[Nabterayl]

Just remember to be sure where each Wolf Guard comes from...

Well, that's the question, isn't it? They come from an Elites choice. But Kill Points are not awarded on the basis of FoC choices. They're awarded on the basis of units. If a wolf guard is attached to a squad, what unit(s) is he a part of? Are you taking the view that a wolf guard attached to a grey hunters squad is not part of that unit of grey hunters? Or that he is part of that unit of grey hunters and part of a unit of wolf guard?

Also, @moderator, shouldn't this be in the rules forum?

[Lednera]

@Nabterayl, I would have put this over there but it seemed to me this was not exactly a rules issue although at this point we have gotten a bit technical and I would have to agree it might be better if it was moved to rules forum. In addition thanks for your insight on this.

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My take after reading your points guys is that the unit begins as an elite choice before deployment. At deployment we choose to split part of the squad to lead other units and they attach as part of that unit. In other words they are worth no KP on their own. If the entire Elite Choice or Troop Choice of Wolf Guards that the Wolf Guard came from is wiped completely, this would mean all Wolf Guard of the original choice then we get the KP.

Example:
Grey Hunter Pack 1 (10 Marines) 1 KP
Grey Hunter Pack 2 (10 Marines) 1 KP
Grey Hunter Pack 3 (10 Marines) 1 KP
Wolf Guard Pack (3 Marines) 1 KP

At deployment our Wolf Guard Pack splits to lead the Grey Hunters and we get the same total of kill points but all 3 Grey Hunter Packs most be killed in order to get the 4th Kill Point awarded.

I hope I was able to explain my perception correctly.

[Nabterayl]

Your explanation makes total sense to me. The question I have is this: when do we determine how many "units" there are in a list, for Kill Point purposes? If it's before deployment, then your explanation is obviously the correct one.

But if it's after deployment - say, at the end of the game - things are less clear to me. Arguably, after deployment, there is no wolf guard unit any more. After all, the wolf guard don't have to follow any of the rules that normally apply to units (e.g., they don't have to stay in coherency with each other, they don't all have to shoot or assault the same target, they do not form a single target for the purpose of enemy attacks, etc.) - instead, they behave in all ways as if they were part of the grey hunters unit. This is the reason I'm inclined to say there are only three KPs in your example. I hope my explanation makes sense too.

I'm not sure there's an obvious right or wrong answer here - I think your example and my example are the two ways you could think about it, and people are just going to have to house rule it until we get a FAQ.

[Lednera]

excellent observation mate, I agree that this might be as good as we can get it but let me toss you this idea I agree with your point totally and if that was the case then I would be able to save some KP for those KP Games but on the other note and probably in my personal opinion as we already agree that till the FAQs come out we should house rule it. My opinion is as follows...

I think the player should mark the wolf guard lets say squad 1 or 2 to keep track of what models go to what wolf guard squad would be the first way to resolve if a quasi-unit of Wolf Guard are still in the game. If at the end of the game any member of the quasi-unit are still in the table then I would say the unit was not destroyed. I think this would not generate a kill point at the end of a game, however in order to keep this in a good spirit I would say that in order to keep it "fluffy" that a Wolf Guard mentor that at the end of the game is left alone would count as KP since they have failed the clan and dishonored themselves in battle. This sort of keeps it in line with the fluff and feel of the codex, after all when they choose to split from the base pack of wolf guard they are the mentors of the lesser packs and loosing your charges would be failure even if you survive. That is a way to try to balance it out. The player could avoid this by having the wolf guard rejoin a wolf guard unit of its original pack or by rejoining a pack that has no wolf guard mentor and that is allowed before the end of the game.

The more by the book way is regardless of how we play it when we see each others lists we know the number of kill points in the list and if we keep in mind proper labels on the units we can see that unit 1 of wolf guard 1 KP though split is still 1 KP when all are killed. I got a small saying always go back to the source in this case the army list, this would be the fair thing to do if you do not agree with a bit of a fluffy solution.

Your views are welcome, even those attached to a heavy flamer :) we can make a bit of cooked well I should say charred marshmallows :)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

My group will be playing it using precedent -- all units are a KP. WG in a GH squad notwithstanding, it is one unit, and hence 1 KP.

Reasoning is pretty simple: When you attach a wolf guard it is basically adding a model to the squad, not "attaching." I.e., it's as if the list entry says:

- 1 Wolf Guard
- 5-10 Grey Hunters

instead of just

- 5-10 Grey Hunters

Follow?

[DarkLink]

I agree with Emperor (I think). A Grey Hunter squad is one unit. A Grey Hunter squad with a Wolf Guard leader is... still one unit. It's as simple as that. Kill points are not well defined, and how Wolf Guard are attached to a squad is not well defined, so trying to say "well, technically..." doesn't really work.

How you write your list up is arbitrary. These two lists mean the same thing.
3 Wolf Guard
3x9 Grey Hunters

and

3x 9 Grey Hunters w/ 1 Wolf Guard

One list has 4 units, the other has 3. Yet both, when acutally played in-game, can make up 3 units. Now, technically the Wolf Guard have the option, before each battle, to choose whether or not to split off. But SM Combat squads have the option to deploy as either one unit or two. I wouldn't try to argue that because each Tactical squad makes up one unit when you wrote down your list, your two combat squads only count as one kill point. They are played, in-game, as two, seperate, unique units. That means two kill points. It doesn't matter how the list was written, it matters how many units there were in the actual game.

If you chose to play the first list above and not add in the wolf guard to the Grey hunters, the list has 4 Kill Points (1 for the Wolf Guard, 3 for the Grey Hunters).

If you chose to play with one wolf guard as a pack leader, and the other two remaining their own seperate unit, the list has 4 kill points (1 for the two seperate wolf guard, 1 for the Grey hunters with the other wolf guard, and 2 for the two Grey Hunter squads with no wolf guard).

If you choose to put all the wolf guard in the Grey Hunter squads, you have 3 Kill points (one for each Grey Hunter unit with a Wolf Guard).



There is no other logical way to play this that is consistent with the way kill points work in other armies. The number of units you have on the table matters, not how many are in your list.

[Lednera]

@DarkLink and Emperor, then what you suggest is that Grey Hunter and there for any unit choice that can attach a Wolf Guard assimilates them and they n o longer count as a separate unit. I am cool with that, the next question is then if they are no longer a unit choice in the sense for kill points if put into your troop choices or unit choices then they no longer take an Elite slot in FOC since they are part of the unit they joined. Would you agree with this out look?

In other words it goes something like this....

Example:
I choose to improve my grey hunter squads

Standard FOC
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines) - 3 KP
1 Elite Choice - 1 Wolf Guard Pack (3 Marines) - 1 KP
or
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines and 1 Wolf Guard) - 3 KP

we no longer have a 'Wolf Guard Pack' to give a kill point but then it also does not take up an Elite Choice in the FOC since they became part of the other units.


--
Would this be acceptable if you remove them from being able to give a KP because they split then the original unit does not exist and the slot they would normally have taken is opened up again.

[Nabterayl]

the next question is then if they are no longer a unit choice in the sense for kill points if put into your troop choices or unit choices then they no longer take an Elite slot in FOC since they are part of the unit they joined. Would you agree with this out look?
I wouldn't be, no. The way I look at it is this - space wolves are penalized by the fact that they need to spend an Elites choice to get any squad leaders at all (something the codex clearly requires). I feel no need to penalize them further by making those squad leaders an additional Kill Point. In other words it goes something like this:


Example:
I choose to improve my grey hunter squads

Standard FOC
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines)
1 Elite Choice - 1 Wolf Guard Pack (3 Marines)
deployed as
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines and 1 Wolf Guard) - 3 KP

Example:
I choose not to improve my grey hunter squads

Standard FOC
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines)
1 Elite Choice - 1 Wolf Guard Pack (3 Marines)
deployed as
3 Troop Choices - 3 Grey Hunter Pack (9 Marines) - 3 KP
1 Elite Choice - 1 Wolf Guard Pack (3 Marines) - 1 KP

This way the space wolf player still has to spend an Elite choice to get his wolf guard, however he uses them. I think this is the only reasonable interpretation of the Pack Leaders rule. However, the space wolf player is not further penalized by having more kill points in his army than he has units on the tabletop. He has exactly as many Kill Points as he has units to work with, which I think is the spirit of the Kill Point rule.

[Lednera]

@Nabterayl, I agree with you they way you illustrate it seems to flow correctly. Just moving this further to continue making the concept clear, I personally think the Dedicated Transport (Land Raider) counts as an extra KP or because it is a Dedicated Transport it is not a KP. On this same note what about dedicated transports that the original Wolf Guard choose can any unit a Wolf Guard has joined use it in deployment. Your thoughts and anyone else's are welcome.

[DarkLink]

I agree with Nabterayl.

As for the Land Raider, as I understand it dedicated transports count as a seperate kill point. Some tournaments modify the Kill Point rules and change this, but by default, dedicated transports are kill points of their own.

So a Wolf Guard unit with a dedicated Land Raider would be two kill points. If you used up all the Wolf Guard as Pack Leaders, you'd still have a dedicated Land Raider, which counts as a kill point. Additionally, the Land Raider remains dedicated, so only the Wolf Guard can deploy in it, even if the Wolf Guard have been split up as pack leaders and there is no seperate Wolf Guard unit in play.

[Lednera]

I see well I think that covers all fuzzy logic points of the wolf guard unit did we forget about any point that might be a bit problematic?

[Xas]

actually the number of "units"/KP of the whole army is never checked. it can vary during the course of a game (example: space marine tactial squad of 10 man in droppod. until it has landed it is not determined if that FOC slot will grant 3 or 2 KP consisting of the droppod and either 1*10 marines or 2*5 marines).

another example why wolf guards should not be an extra KP after beeing added to units are the IG plattons.

there you can join the squads into one big unit at the start of the game (basically reverse combat squads). your FOC has 1 troop unit with 1 junior officer and 3 units of 10 guardsmen and on the table top you can deploy them as the junior officer and one unit of 30 guardsmen. if wolf guards were an additional killpoint those 30 man squad would be worth 3 which it clearly is not.



the "trigger" for anything to grant a killpoint is pretty simple:

if you kill a modell check:
(if it is a modell operating alone ##like a vehicle or IC
-->grant killpoint
otherwise:
(if it was the last modell of it's unit
-->grant killpoint
otherwise:
(if it was an independend charackter inside it's retinue
-->grant killpoint
else: do nothing



killpoints do not care for the FOC... I'd love to have a paltton of ~100 guardsmen and ~10 units only grant 1kp but no :(

[Lednera]

@Xas, you my friend I think complicated the line of thinking just a little bit at least for me.

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Thread covered Issues

#1:
Could Terminators in Space Wolves ride Rhino and Razorback; answer no according to codex

#2:
KP Assignments, originally viewed that assigning of 'units' was done at deployment and we went into two or three possible ways to interpret the issue. Please review thread for the specific interpretation and the examples.

#3:
Dedicated Transport and KP assignment, we seem to agree that it still generates a KP unless tournament or house ruled otherwise.

Hope this brings us all to speed on were this thread is heading. Now @Xas, please explain to me and to all of us your reasoning and how this would be done, because I think we are saying the same thing just slightly worded differently.

[webron]

I have a question regarding wolf guard and wolf scouts. Can a wolf guard be attached to a scout squad and then use the behind enemy lines rule? It does not say that they can, but the rules limit the ability to use terminator armor, jump packs or bike, which implies they can join the unit and outflank. I amy be missing something.