Starting a Tyranid army (yes I have started it as my own thread)

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

hey guys.
recently you will have seen that i posted on a thread about starting a Nid army, and then have had to subsequently move onto a new post as the guy who origionally posted the tyranid thing got a bit annoyed that people had moved from posting on his thing and onto mine.
so, as a new post:
i'm looking into creating a Nid army using any models possible, and wonder what would be best to get, and any i deas about what to use. I already have the battle force, and a zoanathrope. so what do i need and what should i use them like, and what sort of lists?
(sorry if this should be in tactica, but the last post on this was in general, and no one seemed to complain)
tah all
warboss Grotgrim Dakkaskab
(and sorry to the guys post i accidentally hijacked. didnt mean to)

[Anggul]

Well considering what you have, I think it would be a good move to get another box of Termagants and another of Hormagaunts. This will boost their numbers to an effective level. Due to how easy they are to kill they need numbers to be effective, but they certainly are when they hit the enemy lines.

Hormagaunts should always be given Toxin Sacs. Some people also give them Adrenal Glands but I think that makes them too expensive and the benefit gained can be a bit too situational. A nice sizeable brood of 20-25 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs will make almost anything in the game think twice about coming near that part of the battlefield, as the 4+ poison, high volume of attacks and re-rolling 1s to hit at high Initiative makes them capable of doing a lot of damage to anything that isn't a vehicle, and they're troops so they can score, along with being quite easy to get cover saves for.

Termagants should just be ran as standard with Fleshborers and no other upgrades. Use them as cheap, scoring meatshields for the rest of your army. Expect them to be wiped out in the first couple of turns but worry not, that's their job as they'll be screening your more expensive and important beasties on the way up.

The Warriors will make a good Synapse locus to support your army, as well as providing extra hitting power in support of your smaller guys. Most loadouts for these guys can perform some kind of useful combat role, although I would steer clear of the big guns and either stick with Devourers or upgrade to Deathspitters for some extra punch and ability to damage vehicles. Rending claws are nice if you have the points spare to let them hurt Marines and Vehicles more easily. I like to always give them Toxin Sacs, the re-rolls are great for the cost.

Genestealers used to be better, but now you generally need a couple of broods to work together for them to work well. Instead, you could use them as Ymgarl Genestealers, which are a nasty, inevitable surprise and disruption squad who will hop out and usually eat something, disrupting the opposing firepower and letting the rest of your swarm close in as well as hopefully ripping apart something nice and shooty and expensive.

I would get a second Zoanthrope at least. They're very useful for dealing with high armour Vehicles for obvious reasons, or if your opponent doesn't have any and is mainly using light vehicles you can roll on the rulebook disciplines instead for loads of utility. I like to run three and either keep them all with Warp Lance if my opponent has a fair amount of high armour vehicles, or if not I roll to try and get Blessings and Maledictions like Telekine Dome (seriously increases the survivability of your beasties when they aren't in cover), Objuration Mechanicum (amazing for dealing with flyers), Endurance (Almost always increases survivability of a brood or MC by a lot) and Enfeeble (makes Space Marines and Necrons cry when your shooting is wounding them so easily).

Taking at least one Tervigon is usually a good way of making sure you have enough scoring models to take objectives, more meatshields and is pretty scary in a fight if you upgrade it. It's generally good to take 3 psychic powers and roll on Biomancy to buff itself. Also buffs Gaunts near it which is great, it turns them from scoring and meatshield into a pretty decent threat.

As for your mandatory HQ, converting a Tyranid Prime is a good call for lower points games as Hive Tyrants are good but rather expensive. I converted mine from a Lictor with spare Warrior bits which you'll have, as the Lictor is more heavily armoured and spiky, which makes it clear that it's the Prime. Always give it either Dual Boneswords or Bonesword and Lashwhip and give it Toxin Sacs to increase the wounds it puts out. It also buffs your Warriors and makes their shooting considerably more effective.

Oh, and Hive Guard are always good for shooting at light-medium vehicles.

There are many other things to speak of, but it would be good to know which models you are particularly interested in, then we could advise you on what they're good at etc.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

thank you. that sounds increadibly realistic. but a tyranid prime? i had always considered a hive tyrant with wings, albeit more expensive, was a better more killy option?
oh and as for more stuff, i might have forgot to mention that it is for a 600 point tourney so i dont have many points.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

also, how does that kind of list deal with the many fliers that i will face (trust me, form the tourneys open day there was a lot of fliers so there will be more in the tourney)

[daboarder]

also, how does that kind of list deal with the many fliers that i will face (trust me, form the tourneys open day there was a lot of fliers so there will be more in the tourney)

Nids deal with fliers by ignoring them. Depending on circumstances the flier should get one round of shooting at most before its flying of the table or hovering and dieing. board control with your swarms is key.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

ah. so if i just filled the board with hormagaunts and then smashed into my opponent (say, a blood angels player with a stromraven) i wouldnt have to worry about the stromraven???

[daboarder]

well no, because he can't turn around and has no where to place it, and if he hovers then you eat it for lunch.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

but eat it with what??? nothing is really strong enough as the weapons arent close combat as nothing has wigns that was suggested

[DWest]

If you only have 600 points, the Prime is definitely the way to go; a well-equipped Prime hits just into the triple digits, while a Hive Tyrant costs 2 Terminators' worth more than that, before you add any upgrades. Additionally, the Prime is an IC, and if attached to a Warrior squad he confers his WS and BS to them.

I would personally run Adrenal Glands on the Prime over Toxin Sacs; against T4 targets the Adrenals give you 2+ to Wound on the charge, vs 4+/re-roll 4+, and S6 instagibs T3 (handy for going through Dark Eldar) and scares vehicles. General rule of thumb is T4 and lower get Toxins, T5 and up get Adrenals. Of course if Nurgle-flavored Chaos or Necrons are popular where you play, then Toxin Sacs become much more useful.

One other model I would suggest is the Venomthrope- he's a weird looking dude, and horrible in CC, but any unit with a model within 6" of the Venomthrope gains 5+ Cover, Defensive Grenades, and enemies have to roll Dangerous Terrain to assault them, which is extremely handy when trying to get your fragile bugs across open ground.

For your points total, I would suggest something like:
-Tyranid Prime w/ Bonesword & Lash Whip, Adrenal Glands (Lash Whip for handling enemy CC units)
-5 Tyranid Warriors w/ Rending Claws & Devourers, 1 Venom Cannon
-16 Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
-2 Zoanthropes
-1 Venomthrope
598 points total.

[DWest]

As far as the Stormraven goes, if this is only 600 points, that will be 1/3 of the opponent's whole list, you should be able to sweep the board of anything else easily, and then just hide on the objectives until last turn. If your opponent puts the Stormy into Hover mode (or any other flier for that matter), it now counts as a Fast Skimmer, so your regular ground units can assault it, or your Zoanthropes can hit it on BS, rather than on 6. Warp Lance will make short work of the beast at that point.

In larger scale games, the flying Tyrant can do a good job on vehicles, although a Tyrant will still have trouble with a Stormraven. Alternately the "carpet of bugs" strategy works well, because remember a Zooming Flyer has to move a minimum of 18"- what you want to do is lay out your Termagaunts or Hormagaunts in as wide as deployment as possible (good practice anyhow as blasts and flamers = bad news for Gaunts) and hug your big bugs against the back edge of this carpet so that the flyer can't be placed anywhere it can get an arc on your valuable units. Again, the Stormraven can go to hover mode, but then you can go to "gut it like a fish with Rending Claws or MC Smashes" mode in response.

[rtmaitreya]

Everyone has been posting fantastic responses that I can't find any fault with. The one I would use is very similar to the list posted by DWest.

Prime kitted out as listed
3+ warriors
16 hormagaunts w toxin
16+ termagants (even better if you have two units of 10)
2 zoanthroapes

You don't need the venomthrope in small games because you can find enough cover that you don't need it. The zoeys have their own invulnerable save already. You have enough bodies to claim objectives, and you are counting on zoeys to blast armor and the hormies and warriors to hit the enemy lines. You present a number of high value targets, which is always important, as there is nothing the opponent is "allowed" to ignore other than the two units of termagants sitting on the objectives. By ignoring those guys, he is letting you win the game. By engaging those guys, he is dedicating resources away from the actual threats. This dynamic is at the core of the Tyranid list. . . the most important targets your opponent faces are always the ones that have the least effect on victory in the end.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

I was planning to drop the warriors so that i could add more units e.g. Ymgarl genestealers and convert the warriors (or one of) to a prime. Any suggestions or better ideas???

[RGilbert26]

Just thought I'd point out that it's a bit counter productive to moan about someone and then apologise about derailing their thread.

Make your mind up.

[rtmaitreya]

Be careful about losing all of your synapse, is all I can say. Mind that the zoeys and prime become your only synapse in the list, and those are already high value targets for the opponent. Be very careful about how you place your own objectives relative to each other and your synapse range. Envision your overlapping circles and how your termagants on the objectives will stay put.

If you go with ymgarls, be aware that people will be shooting everything else in a more concentrated fashion. If they come in turn two, great, you are going to do well. If they delay to turn 3 or 4, then you are in a hard way. Be aware of this and play accordingly. . . aggressive turn 1, but really minimize field of fire incoming. Don't just charge up the middle like a bunch of savages. Bide time and stay hidden if you have to in turn 2 if the ymgarls don't come in.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

Just thought I'd point out that it's a bit counter productive to moan about someone and then apologise about derailing their thread.

Make your mind up.
Well, i was tryin to stop and argument but hey, if you wanna invade my thread and start one the be my guest! I was only trying to stop any arguments, and i want moaning about you ok?

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

Be careful about losing all of your synapse, is all I can say. Mind that the zoeys and prime become your only synapse in the list, and those are already high value targets for the opponent. Be very careful about how you place your own objectives relative to each other and your synapse range. Envision your overlapping circles and how your termagants on the objectives will stay put.

If you go with ymgarls, be aware that people will be shooting everything else in a more concentrated fashion. If they come in turn two, great, you are going to do well. If they delay to turn 3 or 4, then you are in a hard way. Be aware of this and play accordingly. . . aggressive turn 1, but really minimize field of fire incoming. Don't just charge up the middle like a bunch of savages. Bide time and stay hidden if you have to in turn 2 if the ymgarls don't come in.
tah. i wot use the ymgarl, maybe just normal genestealers. played my sirst nid game against the BA i mentioned and neaerly got tabled. lost, but my list was ok i think:
HQ- Tyranid prime wth rending claws and bonesword and lash whip, and adrenal glands-105pts
13 hormagants with toxin sacs- 104
12 termagaunts with devourers-120pts
zoanathrope- 60pts
didnt have all models built so i played with what i had. that only totals around 308 points, no wonder i lost, i have 292 points left to spend!

[Slacker]

i have 292 points left to spend!

I would consider converting another one of those warriors to a prime. In all honesty the rending claws on the prime don't bring a lot to the table that the bonesword doesn't already (just the possible D3 extra armor pen.) I would go with scything talons instead of the claws.
With the rest of the points I would maybe add in a 2nd Zoanthrope (as others have suggested) and then what ever is left after that bolster the size of one of the gaunt squads (either hormie or termies, probably whichever you think performed better in your first game.)
Both the models I suggest will help with added punch and provide more synapse coverage.
Alternatively, if you think your ok on synapse, just add as many more gaunt bodies as you can for the points (but I would still suggest the 2nd zoie)

[Anggul]

Yeah, winged Hive Tyrants are great but they're a bit too expensive for low-points games.

Take Toxin Sacs on Tyranid Primes instead of Adrenal Glands, they're just plain better against everything except vehicles. Re-rolling to wound against most things and wounding on a 4+ against Monstrous Creatures and other T6 things like Nob Bikers and Nurgle Bikers/Chaos Spawn every turn is much better than +1 Strength when you get the charge (which you might not) for one turn.

You're writing a 600pts list yes?

[rtmaitreya]

I run my prime with adrenal, rending, bonesword, and lash. I generally have him plowing center or offset in a large group of gants that picks up toxin sacs for free due to tervigon proximity. I still pay for the adrenal because I suffer against vehicles, and never have a problem with bikers and monstrous creatures due to poison on all my termagants and auto-wound potential from gargoyles. Vehicles, however, are bad juju for a genestealer cult list, and the S6 charge with d3 rend benefit is enough to turn my little prime into a real threat, even potentially land raiders and superheavies, but most importantly against walkers.

In small games without a tervigon, you still have hormies to threaten high T targets, but you still struggle against heavy rhino/razor/chimera populations that can be prevalent. Having a prime with adrenals and rending plus two zoeys for anti-armor is a good crutch.

Note - pointswise, prime with scythe is generally better than rending, especially if you have other anti-armor units. I'm using a converted space hulk broodlord miniature for my prime, though, so I'm sticking with my rending claws and genestealer theme.

[Anggul]

The fact that they let you wound really tough things easier is just a bonus, the main thing is the re-rolls to wound. No Tyranid army should be struggling so much with vehicles that they need their Tyranid Prime to take them out. Granted, you're playing a Genestealer-themed list, but generally most people won't be, so Toxin Sacs are best for dealing more damage to non-vehicles.

[dwez]

Before you go converting one of your 3 Warriors into a Prime I would look into making it with an alternative model. There are a number of ways to do it online - the original hive tyrant model is popular, White Dwarf has one that is Warrior legs with Ravaner torso and head. I made mine out of the Original Plastic Warrior models and sometime they come up on ebay, occasionally cheap but also not so cheap but it's bigger than the current Warriors so looks suitably Prime! Either way if you convert an existing warrior to a Prime then you won't be able to make a minimum brood of three. Alternatively you could convert the remaining two Warriors if you have already converted a Prime to Hive Guard, but you'll need some bits My conversions are available to look at here:

http://40kaddict.blogspot.co.uk/p/tutorials.html

But they're also in the bols 40k modelling forum.

[rtmaitreya]

dwez, your prime 2.0 is brilliantly executed. Great job.

For people trying to skimp on paying for upgrades to the primes, note that they *do* benefit from Tervigon enhanced gant squads if they have joined them. A cheap prime becomes cheaper (but less flexible) if you keep him with gants that are boosted with toxin sacs and adrenal glands.

The only other character who benefits from this is the parasite of motrex. . . which seems like a cool fun fluffy character, but just doesn't have much punch against MEQs. I wonder is he better in the necron and daemon meta shift? S6 works well against necron, although no bonesword to carve through armor.

Has ANYONE played with the parasite? Where did they work and where not so much?

[dwez]

For people trying to skimp on paying for upgrades to the primes, note that they *do* benefit from Tervigon enhanced gant squads if they have joined them. A cheap prime becomes cheaper (but less flexible) if you keep him with gants that are boosted with toxin sacs and adrenal glands.

However many times I read the Independent Character and unit special rules my head hurts and the words literally swim in front of me like it was heretical text. I can only read it as the units rules don't confer but I do understand the other viewpoint [here I go derailing the thread again ;) ]. It's this level of ambiguity and instant contradiction from GW that causes a lot of these 'hotly contested debates' where nerds are polarized into angry camps about rules to a game of toy soldiers!

[Anakzar]

For 600 points I might go with something like the following.

HQ (130pts)
Tyranid Prime (130pts) Base(80pts) + Deathspitter (5pts) + Lash whip and bonesword(15pts) + Regeneration(10pts) + Adrenal glands(10pts) + Toxin sacs(10pts)

Elites (120pts)
2 Zoanthrope(120pts)

Troops (470pts)
23 Termagants(115pts) Fleshborer

Tervigon (235pts) Base(160) + Adrenal Glands(10pts) + Toxin Sacs(10pts) + Crushing Claws(25pts) + Catalyst(15pts) + Onslaught(15pts)

Could drop 6 termagants for regen on the Tervigon (in smaller games you will likely get to attempt to use it and it usually means an extra wound). I like regen on the prime since its very cheap it can often means an extra wound so 10 pts is worth it. Run the prime with the termagants and they can range farther away from the Tervigon(why I gave him both adrenal and toxin). You have 3 synapse and if they are all dead you are in trouble...

Roll on biomancy for the tervigon 3 chances to get iron arm. I would leave the Zoanthropes as is for tank killers at range. The Tervigon will kill any tanks it can charge if she don't get dead before that, if you get iron arm its a very hard target to kill.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

You see,.i would drop the tervigon, field 15 termagants with the 5pt upgrade gun, 15 hormagaunts with toxin sacs, hive tyrant with winfs and adrenal glands (and rending claws) and a zoan. Tgats around 500 pts right? Not got the codex to habd

[Learn2Eel]

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, adrenal glands - 240

Elites
Zoanthrope - 60

Troops
Termagants (15) w/ devourers - 150
Hormagaunts (15) w/ toxin sacs - 120

That is 570 points, and by the way, Hive Tyrants can't take Rending Claws.

If you want my recommendations, give the Hive Tyrant two sets of twin-linked devourers. They are a pain in the buttocks to model, but well worth it in-game. That would bring you up to 600 points on the dot.

[Anakzar]

Your original post stated that you had the battle force Plus one zonathrope.

How about this list so you didn't have to buy anymore models?

HQ (125pts) OR (130pts)
Tyranid Prime (130pts) Base(80pts) + Lash whip and bonesword(15pts) + Regeneration(10pts) + Adrenal glands(10pts) + Toxin sacs(10pts) OR + deathspitter(5pts)

Elites (275pts)

2 hive guard(100pts) {use the remaining 2 warriors with the bigger guns/rending claws... or deathspitters with the old fleshhooks(that come in the box) stuck into the ends, use bluetack or something else temporary}

Zoanthrope(60pts)

5 Ymgarl Genestealer (115pts)

Troops (200pts) OR (195pts)
12 Termagants with devourer(120pts) OR 15 Termagants (75pts)

10 Hormagaunt with toxinsacs (80pts) OR 15 Hormagants (120pts)

The OR option gives a few more troops and I think its the stronger of the two(but devourers sure are nice on termagants if you have the points)

Another option would be to change the Ymgarl to regular genestealers and go with 16 hormagaunts/toxin and 16 termagants/fleshborers/toxin... puts you right at 599pts

[rtmaitreya]

I can only read it as the units rules don't confer but I do understand the other viewpoint!

All I can say is "Page 4 of the Tyranid FAQ" lists the GW answer explicitly to this exact question. Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees with it doesn't matter as much as the fact that everyone is going to pay attention to the FAQ. They got several things wrong, in my opinion, according to RAW, but RAI is more important, and when that I is explicitly confirmed in a FAQ, I will abide by it.

RTM