Sisters of Battle and Black Templars

[Kispal]

Quick question: maybe it's cos I'm not totally immersed in the backgrounds of these two armies, but could someone please explain to me why, in the allies restrictions, they're listed as Desperate Allies? I'd've thought they'd be Battle Brothers. What am I missing?

Cheers.

[eldargal]

The SoB are part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Black Templars (and Marines in general) don't follow the Ecclesiarchy. So the SoB view the BT as a bunch of nutters of dubious loyalty (half of all SPace Marines having turned traiter afterall) while the BT view the SoB as superstitious lunatic nuns with guns.

Both sides are right, so they hate each other.

[Kispal]

Ah, I see. Thanks, very clear.

Is there anything which makes the BTs particularly hateful for the Sisters? After all, all other Chapters can be Allies of Convenience. Maybe there's something specific in the background.

Cheers.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think (can't remember clearly) that they - or, well, the force that would eventually become the Sisters - were explicitly on opposite sides in the Age of Apostasy. The Goge Vandire stuff.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ah, I see. Thanks, very clear.

Is there anything which makes the BTs particularly hateful for the Sisters? After all, all other Chapters can be Allies of Convenience. Maybe there's something specific in the background.

Cheers.

Basically? The Black Templars are particularly arrogant, zealous, violent, and douchey, while the Sisters of Battle - as humans, albeit fanatical ones - tend to emphasize things like protecting innocents and civilians. Don't forget that the Sisters of Battle are part of the same organization as Sisters who serve as phsyicians and babysitter/tutors.

[MaltonNecromancer]

There's always this assumption that because factions are ostensibly the same species/religion, they are on the same side, despite the fact that the entirety of human history teaches the complete opposite. I've always thought of it as being a bit like the Catholic/Protestant hatred in England back in the times of the Tudors all the way up through the English Civil War. Two groups who should essentially be the same, but instead violently and virulently hate each other, to the point where each group tries to exterminate the other whenever it's in power.

With the SoB vs BT, I always assumed the argument was that the SoB thought that Heretics should be tortured and burned, while the BT thought they should just be burned. Either that, or an argument over the exact angle you should bow your head when praying to the Emperor.


Don't forget that the Sisters of Battle are part of the same organization as Sisters who serve as phsyicians and babysitter/tutors.

Lest we paint the SoBs as the "nice" faction here, let's not forget that they punish those who fall from grace through:
1.) the nightmare surgery of arco-flagellation.
2.) being made to fight naked and driven to frenzy through pain, armed only with a chainsaw
3.) and finally crucified to the front of a suicide-dreadnought.

Seriously, for horrific torture, the SoB are one of the most insane factions outside of the Dark Eldar. The Black Templars will only kill you.

[Flying Tigress]

It's because having the Sisters of Battle not working well with a Space Marine chapter that loathes unsanctioned psyker and heretics makes WAY less sense than Ultramarines and Tau bro-fisting... she said, ironically...

[gcsmith]

You have to remember, the Black Templars are the most unique space marine chapter. They are still on the 'great crusade' and follow the commandments most strictly. One of those is do not worship the emperor as a god. Maybe they view the sisters as near heretics because of that.

[Flying Tigress]

That would make sense, except that the Black Templars champion any of their brothers that receive "a vision" from the Emperor on the eve of battle. While one could chaulk this up to their belief that the Emperor is the only true psyker that should exist in the universe, but obviously their fanatacism about receiving his visions places them in an obviously somewhat spiritual camp. To that end, I would think there would be some kinsmanship with Sisters, especially in light of their propensity also receive visions, and for that matter, to have members of their Adepta become eleveated to "living saints," imbued with the Emperor's power.

Also, as they like to wage wars against all transgessions against the Imperium, most notably in the instances of heresies and witchery, an alliance with the Sisters of Battle, even if its only an "Allies of Convenience," makes sense politcally. On the field of battle, certainy, Black Templars would be much more likely to be working towards the same ends as a Sisters of Battle force, certainly more so that some of the other chapters GW decided to make "allies of convenience." Like Dark Angels, for example.

A secretive and evasive chapter that guards it's secrets and will actively prevent other organizations in the Imperium from prying to closely into their affairs, being on more civil terms with an organization renowned for its intolerance and rash leaps to condemnation for all things shady? It doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Add to the fact that the Black Templars are more closely trusted by the High Lords of Terra, and one can infer therefore, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adepta Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ministorum, and it just makes no sense whatsoever.

[Nabterayl]

That would make sense, except that the Black Templars champion any of their brothers that receive "a vision" from the Emperor on the eve of battle. While one could chaulk this up to their belief that the Emperor is the only true psyker that should exist in the universe, but obviously their fanatacism about receiving his visions places them in an obviously somewhat spiritual camp. To that end, I would think there would be some kinsmanship with Sisters, especially in light of their propensity also receive visions, and for that matter, to have members of their Adepta become eleveated to "living saints," imbued with the Emperor's power.
I think you hit this nail on the head the first time - to a Black Templar, there is a world of difference between the Emperor being able to give visions and the Emperor being a god.


Also, as they like to wage wars against all transgessions against the Imperium, most notably in the instances of heresies and witchery, an alliance with the Sisters of Battle, even if its only an "Allies of Convenience," makes sense politcally.
I don't know ... of the four chapters that have their own codex, the Black Templars seem like the least likely to do something that goes against their principles because it makes political or tactical sense.


Add to the fact that the Black Templars are more closely trusted by the High Lords of Terra, and one can infer therefore, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adepta Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ministorum, and it just makes no sense whatsoever.
Well ... that might be true, but the trust would have to be reciprocal for it to affect the allies table, right? If I trust you with my life but you expect me to betray you at every turn, our ability to work together will still be miserable.

[Charistoph]

I just thought it was because of the Templar's unusual size and the Sister's links to the Ecclisiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.

[Flying Tigress]

Granted on all points. The trouble I have with the Allies table is that in most cases there seems to be no precedent for or against certain decisions. I grant that there's no canonical evidence that suggests that Black Templars would get along with Sisters, and vice-versa. But there also isn't any canonical evidence that suggests they WOULDN'T. And judging from previously established lore and background, the leap isn't as far fetched as say... again, the Blue Man Crew of Ultras and Tau.

In fact, the Sisters have shown a remarkably conciliatory attitude towards their Astartes brothers. Working closely with the Blood Ravens in the Dawn of War novels and games, and even going against their sworn duty to protect a saint's tomb to spare some firepower to aid the Excotiators in Legion of the Damned. And both of those chapters have or had very prevalent librarians, as opposed to the Black Templars, who are a crusading chapter. Fluff-wise, the decision just seems arbitrary.

And the point I was trying to make wasn't as much a political one as an idealogical one. It was a poor choice of words. Idealogically, the Black Templars and the Sisters would be far more likely to form even an uneasy alliance in the interests of a common goal than say, the Sisters and the Dark Angels, who are just as likely to torch and burn all their allies to protect their little emo "oh noes, our fallen bros... we must protect all our secrettsssssssss."

So, I just picture Black Templars and Sisters of Battle being more... if not co-operative, to at least operate with a modicum of respect. Far more than what can be pictured in their Allies chart.

I mean. Look at it this way. If I ally IG with Sisters, I can cast a Primaris psyker power on my Canoness. Does it make sense, fluff-wise? Ehhhhhh. Probably not so much. I can have my Dark Angels librarian standing 6 inches away from my Celestian squad, and lighting off witchfire attacks left right and center, and in theory the Celestians can swallow their pride. Does that make sense fluff-wise? Ehhhhh. If I make a few remarks in the spirit of being a Sisters player, about foul warp taint, it could.

Now. If I have an Emperor's Champion that's received a vision from the Emperor that orders him to "kill that traitor mutant witch *******" on the other side of the table, apparently all of my Sisters of Battle think "holy crap, that crazed son of the Emperor that wants to smite the hell out of that dude across the table is just a notch above that dude above the table." Ehhhhh. It's a whole lot of arbitrary Ehhhhhhh.

It just seems like the Allies Table is so damned hit and miss. It's seriously like GW said "OK. Chaos is bros with Chaos, IG is bros with all other Imperials. The rest.... grab the dart board, let's see how the rest stack up."

Arbitrary. It would have been nice to see how and why they decided to make the choices they did. And to sell models is the obvious answer. But... power armour is power armour.

Sisters. As likely to like Necrons/Orks/Eldar as Black Templars. Sanctuary 101. (facepalm).

[eldargal]

I think people read to much into 'Battle Brothers' and whatnot. It doesn't mean that the factions co-operate, or like each other. In some cases it might, but really is is cat of, say, Ultramarines being familiar with the Tau and knowing they aren't insane/stupid enough to attack them in the middle of a battle. People need to think of it more in terms of 18th century battlefield honour or medieval chivalry than in terms of the factions fistbumping.

Having said that I do accept that the Allies chart is a little odd.

[ElectricPaladin]

I believe that GW has openly said that the Allies chart is one part background, one part game balance.

[Nabterayl]

I view it as more a reflection of the individual factions. The litmus test for the allies chart, in my mind, is this: when faction X and faction Y are fighting each other, and eleventy billion tyranids spill out of the skies bent on killing everything that moves and/or is based on carbon, what do X and Y do?

Do they say, "Let's kill each other later, if we survive this?" If so, they're Allies of Convenience. The most rational factions, like the Empire, tend to have a lot of Allies of Convenience for this reason.

Do they continue killing each other despite the obvious fact that doing so will lead to their mutual doom? If so, they're Come the Apocalypse.

Does either say, "Let's kill each other later, if we -" only to be interrupted by the other, who says, "Don't you ^%&*$(* get near me, you @#*)%*##&^%*!" If so, they're Desperate Allies.

A few of those combinations seem to be based on plain old mistrust (even the Empire recognizes that when an archon offers to work together so you don't get eaten by bugs, he's probably only saying that to lull you into a false sense of security), but others seem to be based on plain old irrationality. Maybe we have different views of how professional are the Orders Militant, most space marines, and Black Templars specifically, but I totally buy Black Templars mistrusting Sisters as much as they mistrust Dark Eldar, even though I wouldn't expect that paranoia to be mutual.

[Renegade]

Just to point out that the going by the C:BT makes it quite clear that none of the Imperial agencies really trust the BT, they are considered verging on renegade.

They do not follow the codex, they do not take orders from the High Lords, they do not show pity, remorse or fear.

The do fight for the Emperor, still fight the old Crusade, hold on to the values of Sigismund.

No faction has every managed to prove that their loyalty wanting, they are very good at getting these thing before the council.

All this can be found in the C:BT.

Reason for the lack of trust, the Ecclesiarchy consider them verging of heretics, while the BT have that the Ecclesiarchy are heretical.

You may also want to read Hellsreach, and take note of how the Titian forces are persuaded not to leave the fight, then consider why the Ecclesiarchy may be worried about fighting alongside the BT.