Chaos 1500

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, I have a gaming league coming up at my LGS based around Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. It is intended to be a semi-competitive/fun army list, mostly against fellow Chaos Space Marines and Vanilla Loyalists.
Aside from a few players, most players at my LGS run what would be considered 'fun' or 'semi-competitive' army lists; to give you an idea, foot-slogging infantry are most common, usually with some vehicles (like a Land Raider, a few rhinos here and there) and very few fliers (if at all). MEQ is the name of the game where I play.

As such, I was wondering about how you feel I could expand/change this basis of an army list. It is 1100 points so far, I am working out what else to take;

Troops
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, mark of nurgle, rhino - 220
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, meltagun, mark of nurgle, rhino - 230
Cultists (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ siege shield - 130
Vindicator w/ siege shield - 130

If you are wondering why one of the Chaos Marine squads lacks an extra special weapon, I either don't have the model/can't find it/it is broken, though I can always ask if I can use a unique model as counts-as.
I think it is a solid core, especially when considering what I should be playing against. I have never tried Nurgle Marines before, usually my Troops section has 20 Cultists in one blob instead of one unit of 10 - I thought that the 60 points were better spent on giving my Chaos Marines the Mark of Nurgle. I guess I will see how that goes. In fact, this will be the first time I have used marked standard Chaos Marines.

For additions, I have lots of stuff, including;
*Three bikers with two plasma guns
*Forgefiend
*Predator Destructor
*Land Raider
*10 Terminators and multiple Terminator Lords, including Abaddon
*18 Thousand Sons and Ahriman
*12 Khorne Berzerkers
*Defiler
*Two Daemon Princes
*Various models to use as Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and even Dark Apostles
*Lucius
*Up to four Helbrutes with multi-meltas and power fists (three of them are actually intended for my future Salamanders project)

I also have some allied units I could use in the form of Chaos Daemons, including Fateweaver, 10 Bloodletters and 3 Screamers of Tzeentch.

What do you guys think would be worth changing or adding? The core I think is good, it is always the rest of the allocation that gets me. Should I take a cheap HQ to put somewhere, take some Bikers and a few other bells and whistles? Would a Predator or the Forgefiend be better as the third heavy support option? I can also shave off 10 points by switching the Siege Shields to Dozer Blades on the Vindicators, paying for the extra meltagun and leaving me with 400 points to spend still.

Thanks for any input.

EDIT:
How does this look?

HQ
Chaos Lord w/ jump pack, aura of dark glory, axe of blind fury, mark of khorne - 140

Troops
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, mark of nurgle, rhino - 220
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, meltagun, mark of nurgle, rhino - 230
Cultists (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170
Bikers (3) w/ two plasma guns - 100

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Forgefiend - 175

I don't have a Biker Lord, but I figured a Jump Pack Lord would work just the same.
This leaves me 5 points over, I could drop the dozer blade on one of the Vindicators?
Obviously I wouldn't use the Bikers/Chaos Lord as a suicide unit, I would disguise them appropriately and charge at the best opportunity - on a 4x4 table with readily available cover, that is easier than it sounds.

An alternative to the Forgefiend and Chaos Lord would be the infamous Nurgle Prince w/ the black mace, wings, power armour, as well as an additional unit of 10 Cultists.
Only just got the Forgefiend though so was wanting to give it a try, also running a Daemon Prince in an army with two Vindicators could be seen as silly.

Also, just a word on the cool rules for the league; players must use the same Warlord in each game - though the rest of the army list can change (but not advised), and roll two warlord traits at the start of the league, picking one and using it for the rest of the league. Chaos players get cool extras - if the warlord turns into a daemon prince in a game, they apparently keep their wargear - not sure how it works with jump packs and bikes, probably they just count as wings - so like Kharn has Gorechild, etc. Not sure if they keep special rules. Once it happens, it is permanent for the rest of the crusade - not sure if they stay the same entry on army list or not, they also keep the warlord trait. Same thing if they turn into a Spawn, just no equipment.

I'll find out the specifics later. Sounds neat. Imagine if Ahriman turned into a Daemon Prince and kept everything from the staff to ML4 :eek:

EDIT: The Warlord stays at their original points value :eek:. So that 140 point Chaos Lord in my army list above would have a Daemon Prince stat-line, plus the equipment, all for 140 points (if it happened)!
I guess they are doing it that way so as not to get confusing arguments about points cost i.e. with special characters. Not really imbalanced either as it is unlikely it will happen for anyone.

Thankfully, if they turn into a Chaos Spawn and survive the battle it happened you instead get a Chaos Spawn for 0 points until it dies - once that happens, you have to pick a new Warlord. Sounds strange, so essentially the price of failure is a free HQ?

Got this one as well;

HQ
Chaos Lord w/ jump pack, mark of Khorne, aura of dark glory, axe of blind fury - 140

Troops
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, rhino - 190
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, meltagun, rhino - 200
Cultists (10) - 50
Cultists (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170
Bikers (3) w/ meltabombs, two plasma guns - 105

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Forgefiend - 175

[Learn2Eel]

Woah! I asked for specifics about the Warlord turning into a Daemon Prince, and here they are;

Would the Warlord retain any special rules they had, aside from Independent Character and Champions of Chaos? For example, would Abaddon retain Eternal Warrior? - Yes
Would the Warlord retain their psychic Mastery Level if they had any? For example, would Ahriman retain his Mastery Level of 4? - Yes
If the Warlord was equipped with a jump pack or bike, do they now count as being equipped with wings instead? - Yes

If only it were like this in regular games :rolleyes:
Sounds like it will be fun. I am sure there will be quite a few attempts by people to get their Warlord turned into a Daemon Prince now.
Abaddon's combat potential may go up with this, but obviously he would have no means of transport or protection from bodyguards - though with Terminator Armour he would be able to Deep Strike.

I can just imagine it now, because it is likely to happen to someone;

Abaddon the Despoiler (Daemon Prince)
WS9 BS5 S6 T5 W4 I8 A5 LD9
Monstrous Creature (Character)

Special Rules:
Daemon, Fearless, Veterans of the Long War, Eternal Warrior, Mark of Chaos Ascendant (he is a Daemon of Khorne, a Daemon of Tzeentch, a Daemon of Nurgle, and a Daemon of Slaanesh)

Wargear:
Terminator Armour

Chaos Artefacts:
Drach'nyen, Talon of Horus

Warlord Trait:
Black Crusader

A Daemon Prince with their killy potential, add to that +2 armour, Eternal Warrior, a S7 AP2 daemon weapon, a S10 AP2 lightning claw (AP2 because of Smash), Furious Charge, re-roll saving throws of 1, Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful, Fleet, Rending, etc. And the Preferred Enemy bubble! :eek:

For reference, assuming you don't die from shooting, charge into 10 Paladins.
You have 5 attacks base, +1 for two specialist weapons, +1 for the charge, +D6 from Drach'nyen (we will say +4). 11 attacks at WS9, I8, re-rolling all to hit rolls in the first round and re-rolling failed to hit and wound rolls of 1 - also S8 on the first round due to Furious Charge.
That's something like 9-10 hits and 9-10 wounds, leading to a lot of instant-death Paladins. When they strike back, unless they have hammers, the Daemon Prince can laugh at them with an essentially re-rollable +2 armour save.

[Caitsidhe]

Did they Faq all of this and I miss it? I didn't think you retained ANY of those things?

[Learn2Eel]

No, that's just rules for the 'league'. My LGS owner is really pushing the 'story' side of the campaign, at least as far as making your own.

Sounds great, but it is highly unlikely turning into a prince or spawn will happen.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ok, regarding your list... I'm not familiar with the Chaos 'dex, but I'll do what I can.

Working off your initial 1100 list, what you mist need with your last 400 points is boots on the table. As it stands, you have a very limited ability to take and hold objectives. Your footslogging cultists will evaporate before any concerted fire, leaving you with two slightly-better-for-the-distraction squads of chaos marines. They'll die a little harder, it's true, but that's still a slightly anemic list.

I recommend you go the route that lets you add more bodies. Terminators and a lord? Lord and bikers? All of that sounds good to me, as long as it gives you more bodies!

One thing to remember, though, is that what you have here is basically a mech force. You should try to add further mechanized options. Hybrid forces are... tricky. Unless the foot elements have some way of catching up (they're unusually fast, or they deep strike), they'll be left behind by the faster transports, and your opponent can cut your army in half and mop it up at his leisure.

For example, I don't know if your cultists have any long range options, but unless they do, you might want to remove them. Similarly, whatever you decide to do for a lord and his retinue, make sure it can keep up with the rest of your army. Deep striking terminator lord? Risky, but has potential. Biker/jump pack squad? Odd, but doable.

[Learn2Eel]

The Cultists are there to hold my home objectives, whereas the Chaos Marines are intended to grab the midfield/enemy objectives. I usually don't run two squads of 10 Cultists, most of the time it is one big squad of 20 - regardless, I find most people tend to ignore Cultists for whatever reason. Piling them into a squad of 20 makes them a decent threat and much harder to isolate and destroy. I've found three scoring units has been all I've needed for most of my games at 1500. Unfortunately, I really don't have a lot of infantry I can use - most of them are Thousand Sons, and as much as I love them, to use them would mean sacrificing a lot of good stuff haha.

Yeah that was what I was thinking. I can run either a Terminator Lord with some combi-weapon Terminators, or I can take a Raptor Lord with Bikers (unfortunately, I don't have a Biker lord). Aside from them, there really isn't much else in the way of infantry I can add in, unless I ally with my Dark Eldar (though I just gave away most of my Kabalite Warriors and transports, so probably not haha). I embraced the 5th-edition 'mech is king' aspect a little too heavily.

An option I could do, though it would require serious list tweaking, is taking Ahriman and infiltrating/outflanking a unit of Thousand Sons. However, that would blow right past the 400 point margin in short order. I am lacking for Rhinos, though I could borrow some off someone I know that would probably let me. What do I put in there though - Thousand Sons or Berzerkers? Berzerkers are cheaper, but Thousand Sons would probably be more useful and less dependent on making combat/more survivable.

Oddly enough, that big unit of 20 I mentioned earlier (which I could do) always seems to score me a draw or a win by capturing an objective that my opponent simply can't dislodge them from whilst dealing with other elements of my army.
I could take a Sorcerer in a Thousand Sons unit in a Rhino, but I think that would mean sacrificing stuff like the Bikers and Forgefiend I was thinking of using. I'll see what I can do.
Thanks for the advice!

Actually, a really good way to get more 'boots on the field' is to take Dark Eldar allies. Whilst I can't really do Kabalite Warriors, I still have about 30 Wyches I could use - only one Raider and one Venom, but that would still be a very decent addition.

I'm thinking an Allied contingent along the lines of;

HQ
Haemonculus w/ venom blade, liquifier gun - 65

Elites
Kabalite Trueborn (5) w/ three blasters, venom transport w/ splinter cannon - 170

Troops
Wyches (8) w/ hydra gauntlets, haywire grenades, raider transport - 166

Heavy Support
Ravager w/ night shields - 115

That is a 516 point allied contingent. I could drop the Trueborn as I feel anti-tank really isn't an issue in my army anyway, at least based on where I play. That would free up quite a bit.

The Ravager provides good anti-tank firepower, a Raider is good, the Wyches are a decent tarpit unit and can very easily destroy vehicles, the Venom provides 12 poisoned shots a turn, the Trueborn blast tanks, and the Haemonculi is cheap as chips with a potentially nasty flamer.

EDIT: How does this look?

HQ
Sorcerer w/ sigil of corruption - 85

Troops
Chaos Marines (9) w/ plasma gun, rhino - 177
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, meltagun, rhino - 200


Fast Attack
Heldrake - 170
Heldrake – 170
Bikers (3) w/ two plasma guns - 100

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Vindicator w/ dozer blade – 125

Allies - 346
HQ
Haemonculus w/ venom blade, liquifier gun - 65

Troops
Wyches (8) w/ hydra gauntlets, haywire grenades, raider transport - 166

Heavy Support
Ravager w/ night shields - 115

The Sorcerer is cheap as chips, the idea is to just take Psychic Shriek from the Telepathy discipline as it is a very nasty Primaris.
I'm not sure if it is better than adding in say Bikers, a Forgefiend, more Cultists, a killy Chaos Lord and the like, but it does look decent. The Ravager isn't an obvious target, neither is the Raider, when there are two Vindicators gunning for you....
It would be good if I could fit the Forgefiend in somehow, that way it could pair up with the Ravager and I would have lots of long-range back-field sitting firepower. I could maybe drop the Bikers and try some cost-cutting.
If I really want to push the Forgefiend in, I can switch the Wyches for a small 5-strong Kabalite Warrior squad with a blaster, though that wouldn't really work with the Haemonculus. However, I guess my Dark Eldar aren't exactly going to be the focus of firepower, that will probably be more reserved for Heldrakes, Vindicators and the like.

[Learn2Eel]

If I want to add the Forgefiend in, based off the above army, I can do this;

HQ
Sorcerer w/ aura of dark glory - 75

Troops
Chaos Marines (9) w/ plasma gun, rhino - 177
Chaos Marines (10) w/ plasma gun, meltagun, rhino - 200

Fast Attack
Heldrake - 170
Heldrake – 170

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 125
Vindicator w/ dozer blade – 125
Forgefiend - 175

Allies - 280
HQ
Haemonculus w/ venom blade - 55

Troops
Kabalite Warriors (5) w/ blaster, raider transport - 120

Heavy Support
Ravager - 105

Eh, I tried. Would be a lot better if I had more Kabalite Warriors lol. I can fit a lot more stuff in if I drop the Forgefiend basically, but I only got it recently and I want to try it out. I guess the smart thing to do would be to drop it though I am guessing. I'm not really clued up on how to use Dark Eldar in 6th, let alone as Allies. I guess just some extra scoring bodies, some transports, a cheap HQ and a Ravager is a good base - quite a bit of extra firepower, and when mixed with Space Marines, they benefit from having durable buddies.

Ultimately, Night Shields on a Ravager doesn't make much difference on a 4x4 for what will usually be shooting at it, so no loss there. I don't expect either the Sorcerer or the Haemonculus to live long, being only 2-wound T4 models. Though at least the latter gives Feel No Pain to his unit.