SM Honour Guard and Terminators

[Kloud]

I was so jealous when I saw that the new Space puppies codex allows their terminators to take drop pods. (SW Terminators are kinda wussies.) As a player who regularly uses Drop Pods, I see terminators in pods as a huge advantage. the problem drop pod armies face, is the units in the first wave of pods, take on hell of a beating before renforcements can get to them. But being able to drop Terminators in Drop Pods on my opponents side of the board first turn, now that is a toehold unit if there ever was one.

Now this got me thinkin and at the same time I was going through my codex, and I was noting how Honour Guard are 35 pts each, but It also struck me that they have artificer armour. Honor guard are almost terminators, and in some ways better, and some ways worse.

The big negative against honour guard, is no INV save. And Terminators with Stormbolters plus hvy weapon will outshoot Honour guard. However, after that, they are a very attractive alternative.

Both Terminators and Honour Guard have a base of 2 attacks each, But the Honour Guard with a Power weapon and bolt pistol, gain an additional attack, and are actually a little bit cheaper. Honour guard with Relic Blades are actually more expensive, have same number of attacks as Terminators, but still get to wound most enemies on a 2+ except at Initiative, as opposed to the Stiking Last Powerfists.

Big advantage Honour Guard have over Terminators, is Transport options. This goes back to what I started off with, maybe the Honour Guard could be that rockhard unit that shows up in the first wave of Drop Pods, and is able to somewhat reliably get that toehold in enemy territory. If need be, the Honour guard can get in a Rhino to make a hasty retreat.

Anybody got anything to add? or concerns? or hopefully someone might even have some experience with this.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The Honour Guard have the option of taking a banner that gives them all +1 attack. Yes, you read that right.

Putting them in a drop pod with a Librarian solves mostly all of your problems. The power to grant an invul save to the squad will solve the invul issue, and giving the Chapter Champion a relic blade (he will have 4 base attacks with the banner) will really dish out the hurt and ensure you have some sweeping advance opportunity... assuming you survive the initial wave of fire. The banner even applies to the attached Librarian and other ICs, so they too would get +1 attack and almost be as good as they used to be.

The big failing point is that you MUST take the overcosted Chapter Master option in order to have these guys. Stat-wise and gear-wise, this guy is literally NO different then a much cheaper Captain (which is a stupefying poor design choice if I ever saw one). He comes with orbital bombardment which is completely counter to his assault-heavy stats and very unhelpful generally,

The problem comes with the fact that to even take this squad you are looking at investing ~400-500 points. They are also highly vulnerable to plasma and other high AP stuff once the librarian is dead or if he fails his power. You will also be basically cursed to always use the librarian's power to give them the save, and unless you invest a heap of points extra into him that's the only thing he can do for a turn.

This is all extraordinarily foolish when you can do what I do, which is take a 7 man squad of Assault terminators for 280 points. Gear a couple of them with claws, and maybe include your HQ with them, and just walk/run them across the table. Using wound allocation well you can get this squad into the enemy lines by midgame, still in great condition to smash something to pieces. It will soak up more fire than the entire rest of your oddly fragile Space Marines, who will all be free to use their transports and vehicles to push up to optimal positions. By the time the terminators are dead (IF they die...mine often live through the whole game...and yes, with no land raider), the rest of your army will be surrounding the enemy in optimal positions at nearly full strength.

Or you can just have the best of both worlds and outflank them with Khan -- Hit and Run with Furious Charge on that squad is disgusting.

[DarkLink]

Even with the Librarian for the 5+ invulerable, they're quite vulnerable to plasma and other high AP weapons. A 5+ save on a 35+pt model isn't exactly something to write home about.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Yeah, unfortunately it is best to bring the Assault Terminators in virtually all cases. As I can attest, even on foot they are hugely valuable.

[bad moon on afull moon]

why not try vanguard theyre alot cheaper and can all get a 3+ inv save from SSs for only 15 ppm

in the case of assault terminators you dont want them standing around for a turn with deepstrike since they cant shoot they just stand there and get shot and in most cases die far too quickly so i prefer normal termies with an assault cannon or heavy flamer deepstriking as close to an enemy unit as you are comfortable with and leting rip before charging into the same unit or another that your opponent attempts to bring in to stop you giving you the advantage of charging

[ggg]

Honour guard do not cut it. Close Combat terminators with storm shield / thunder hammers - lightning claw mix do the job better. Honour guard cannot go toe to huge metal foot with a dreadnought or Defiler. Invulnerable saves are essential.

If however, I could put the terminators in a drop pod, I would. Depolyable cover which packs a storm bolter that also allows you to choose whether you will deploy in the first wave and allows you to deploy with confidence. Space Wolves have a great option in their Wolf Guard jumping out of drop pods.

Keep the honour guard for big fun games where they can jump out of land raiders with a double hard character. They are not however, first team 1,500 - 1850 point game players.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

You don't really have a choice with the drop pod assault rules. It is a "must" rule, not a "may" rule. In this regard enemies know it's coming, and sometimes that hurts.

[Kloud]

Unfortunetly this is too true.

When facing a Drop Pod Army, or even a Demon Army, bout the best thing you can do, is put your entire army into reserves. pisses deepstrike armies right off.

[crazyzombie]

why not try vanguard theyre alot cheaper and can all get a 3+ inv save from SSs for only 15 ppm

in the case of assault terminators you dont want them standing around for a turn with deepstrike since they cant shoot they just stand there and get shot and in most cases die far too quickly so i prefer normal termies with an assault cannon or heavy flamer deepstriking as close to an enemy unit as you are comfortable with and leting rip before charging into the same unit or another that your opponent attempts to bring in to stop you giving you the advantage of charging

Yes and do you know how much that 15 ppm sacks up on a already 125 point 5 m unit? The same as a A termie squad. Oh and this isn't anything more than a marine that has a 3++ save, 2 attacks, and no bolter. If you want to turn them into something remotly like a A terminator,or even honor guard unit your going to have to fork over a lot of points.

Oh and most people I know don't tend to typically deepstrike their termies because as you stated they get shot up if they don't scatter off the board first. Stick to transports

[Kefka]

If you ask me,terminators are a better choice. Cheaper,more durable, and can be stronger.If you want to wreak havoc, take Khan and all bikes withteleport homers, then a lot of assault termies. Odd little idea I just came up with... but rolling for reserves may mess you up... (I wish SM had an astropath like IG...)

[Kloud]

The most ridiculous, and frustrating thing about playing a drop pod army, is when you face an IG army, and the Master of th Fleet doesn't even have to be on the table in order to disrupt your reserve rolls. On the plus side, if the IG player puts his command squad in reserve to protect the Master of the Fleet, at least his army isn't benefitting from his Officers higher leadership, and orders.

Now, the main reason I was looking at Honour Guard over Terminators, is that I can load the Honour guard into a Drop Pod, and have them come in on my first turn. I'm thinking with their 2+ save, the will be able to survive better on my opponents side of the board for the turn it's going to take for the guys in Rhinos to get accross the board.

I find the Great thing about a Drop Pod assault, is that my opponent becomes so focused on my units that are on his side of the board, that the Rhino's/Landraiders/LandSpeeders/Devastator Squads, get completly ignored.

Someone said Terminators were cheaper. not quite true. Honour Guard are actually cheaper than Terminators, unless you upgrade their power weapons to relic blades.

[slobulous]

If you are looking for an extremely resilient unit to put into your first wave of pods, consider an Ironclad or two (or five like me).

[Kloud]

Just got my Ironclad painted, might see table for first time this afternoon if everything works out, and I can get a game in.

[DarkLink]

The most ridiculous, and frustrating thing about playing a drop pod army, is when you face an IG army, and the Master of th Fleet doesn't even have to be on the table in order to disrupt your reserve rolls. On the plus side, if the IG player puts his command squad in reserve to protect the Master of the Fleet, at least his army isn't benefitting from his Officers higher leadership, and orders.

Now, the main reason I was looking at Honour Guard over Terminators, is that I can load the Honour guard into a Drop Pod, and have them come in on my first turn. I'm thinking with their 2+ save, the will be able to survive better on my opponents side of the board for the turn it's going to take for the guys in Rhinos to get accross the board.

I find the Great thing about a Drop Pod assault, is that my opponent becomes so focused on my units that are on his side of the board, that the Rhino's/Landraiders/LandSpeeders/Devastator Squads, get completly ignored.

Someone said Terminators were cheaper. not quite true. Honour Guard are actually cheaper than Terminators, unless you upgrade their power weapons to relic blades.

It never did make sense to me why the massive, clumsy forces of the IG get reserve modifiers, and not the Space Marines or any one of a number of other elite forces which actually rely on precise timing (both in game and in real life). At least Eldar get them.

[wolflold]

Terminators all the way. Assault Terminators in a Land Raider is very effective (expensive though), but always gets the job done. Land Raiders are hard to kill, and even if it is destroyed the Termies can take a punch. So its a good fire magnet so the rest of your army can do more damage :D.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

It never did make sense to me why the massive, clumsy forces of the IG get reserve modifiers, and not the Space Marines or any one of a number of other elite forces which actually rely on precise timing (both in game and in real life). At least Eldar get them. One of the many many reasons why I despise that codex. For me it's not about power, it's about logic. The Leman Russ' fluff says it is the most numerous battle tank in the imperium and it is largely due to how easy and quick it is to construct them...but it also has one of the best weapons in the Imperium, can carry more armament then a land raider, can fire all of its weaponry, and has the best "non-Death Star Unit" AV in the game.

It for reasons like this that I have never favored drop podding. Only half of them show up turn 1, and the rest may not arrive for...well what feels like months, in game time, when you are sitting in an IG or other gunline just doing nothing but rolling saves and praying. All drop podding does, is feed your units to the enemy.

I would rewrite the drop pod assault rule in a heart beat to make it optional and allow you to roll reserves on turn 1, looking for a 5+, in addition to the normal half landing bit, but then I would require Drop Pod Assaulting models to have to land within 12" of your deployment zone. Then I would make the pods cost like 60 pts each but give them a rule called like, "Clear the Drop Zone!" where you could move out of the pod if you were 18" away from an enemy, but otherwise have to abide by normal "can't move can't assault" rules because you have to fight to gain some ground (you know, like we see in all those awesome pictures of this sort of attack...).

It'd be nice to do something with the drop pod other than drop it in a line, burn some combi ammo, and wait to die.