Forge world Etiquette?

[Mr Mystery]

Hello, good evening and welcome.

Tonight, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to discuss attitudes toward the regular use of Forgeworld in games.

Now, I'm largely ambivalent on account I am an experienced player, so the occasional new thing to smash up keeps things fresh and interesting, even though I don't partake myself. Well. Not yet. Forgeworld are yet to give me lots of goodies.

But then there are the younger players. They're well used to their own army, which is often their first. A laudable achievement in itself. But when they are still needing to double check their opponents standard codex army and it's abilities, is it right and fair to include exotic resiny goodness? I mean any unusual build of army is going to be new to them, but as FW models tend to use multiple special rules, which aren't always in the rule book, does the fielder of Forge World have the advantage?

Do you feel that Forge World, although now 'game legal' should only be fielded with your opponents foreknowledge that it's going in your list?

I do have an example I could give, but I'll save that for later, as I intend, with your help to explore opinions and peccadillos in the wider community, rather than focus on any given player!

So, contribute, comment and discuss!

[ElectricPaladin]

From my experience, Forgeworld stuff is actually pretty fair. Most of it is costed for its capabilities, and none of it is bizarre or game-breaking. Furthermore, some older armies (*cough* Tau *cough*) are almost impossible to field without a Forgeworld model or two, since their current ancient codices are so anemic. I wouldn't expect an opponent to "clear" Forgeworld stuff with me before a game.

However, I do think it's best practices to be a little more clear about the capabilities of Forgeworld models during the "here's my public list" stage of a game. You know, don't just say "and this is a tank with some lascannons," the way you might about something "basic" like a Predator Annihilator. Assume I don't know what it does - because I probably don't - and walk me through it.

[Mr Mystery]

I hear you brother, and I pretty much agree.

However, as a hangover of being a Fantasy player, I'm not used to showing my list to people. But once deployed, I have no issue with letting my opponent peruse my codex and associated paraphernalia, so they can do a quick check on WYSIWYG. Again against similarly long term gamers, I can more or less tell at a glance whether a Codex army is about right points wise. But with Forgeworld? Not so much. So by letting them go over the unit entry, they can familiarise themselves with the units possible abilities, without getting to see the nasty tricks up my sleeve.

Again this mostly applies to closed list play, and stems from my playing of Fantasy, so mileage and attitudes may vary, and are welcome to do so. Despite my preference, if my opponent hands me his list, he will receive mine!

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

While I'm very pro-Forgeworld, I think that if you're going to use one of their models you should definitely thoroughly explain the unit's abilities/rules/options, and even discuss its synergies so you're not gaining any surprise-advantage from using an uncommon unit (e.g.; "The Blight Drone is great for Nurgle Daemons since it provides mobility and fire support - it works very well in this Epidemus list since it can rack up a high kill-count early in the game.")

[Cpt Codpiece]

TBH most FW stuff for a standard game will be pretty standard apart from maybe a unique weapon/wargear.

to me thats no real step up from someone using a codex you do not own, yeah the basic stat lines will be in the rule book but not all of the special rules will be covered and glancing at the codex will be required....... just like FW.

as long as you are open with them when/if they ask about a certain rule or weapon, then is there really a problem? if anything it may encourage them to look at armies they may not have thought any good from their 'stock' codex *glares at tau empires codex on book case*.

[notsoevil]

Along this line, what made FW stuff "game legal". I keep seeing it mentioned, and I'm happy it is, but what changed to make it so?

[Cpt Codpiece]

quite a while ago there was a stamp/notice in the IA books.

though i dont and have never seen any issue with FW, they always have and always will be part (some people assume otherwise, but no they have always been under the GW umberella) of GW and the products were designed for GW games.

i dont think FW has ever been 'not legal' just ask other player first, just like special dudes used to be. tourneys may have imposed restrictions, but TBH i always think its just Americans who complain about whats 'legal' and whats not. i think the rest of the world is more laid back and sees the hobby for what it is a hobby based around a game.......... that we play with toy soldiers LOL

[Aegwymourn]

quite a while ago there was a stamp/notice in the IA books.

though i dont and have never seen any issue with FW, they always have and always will be part (some people assume otherwise, but no they have always been under the GW umberella) of GW and the products were designed for GW games.

i dont think FW has ever been 'not legal' just ask other player first, just like special dudes used to be. tourneys may have imposed restrictions, but TBH i always think its just Americans who complain about whats 'legal' and whats not. i think the rest of the world is more laid back and sees the hobby for what it is a hobby based around a game.......... that we play with toy soldiers LOL

"but my Lord Sidious, is that legal?"
"I will make it legal!"

sorry i couldn't resist.

back on track. I personally don't mind forgeworld models, as other people have pointed out, if the opponent take the time to give me the rundown. I have to do it almost every game since I play Tau and always field a couple of Tetras now. Most people seem to be fairly accepting of it as well. I have only had one person complain about it during a local tournament.

[Suttobs]

"but my Lord Sidious, is that legal?"
"I will make it legal!"

sorry i couldn't resist.

back on track. I personally don't mind forgeworld models, as other people have pointed out, if the opponent take the time to give me the rundown. I have to do it almost every game since I play Tau and always field a couple of Tetras now. Most people seem to be fairly accepting of it as well. I have only had one person complain about it during a local tournament.

That you Tom?

My local scene is like 30% in favor, 30% against 2-3 specific units, and 40% don't play it and don't care.

I play ultramarines 1st co. (Deathwing) with Mortis dreads. I've gotten some ribbing from guys with flyers, but no complaints.

I think FW is about as balanced as regular 40k, with the exception of HH stuff.

[Learn2Eel]

As long as you have the relevant codices and FAQs handy, just like normal armies, then I have no issue at all. If someone starts telling me some crazy rules without having the actual entry to back it up then I might say "hold on, get your book out".
I've seen stuff like that happen but I've never felt they were intentional attempts at cheating, more-so the players didn't remember too well. I've seen stuff like that even with the basic codices - a friend of mine, a regular player, thought Kharn the Betrayer had a 2+ armour save for five years!

I am actually hopeful to see more Forge World stuff in my LGS in the coming years, would really spice up the games. I'm getting bored of always facing the same kinds of Space Marines. I've even thought of adding some Forge World stuff myself, but I've never gotten around to it. Considering I am starting Tyranids, maybe a Malanthrope would be good. Another alternative would be to save up and get the Hierophant, but that wouldn't be for a very long time - like, after I have an entire Tyranid swarm built up.

[Animus Silvanna]

As I usually don't mind if someone tells me they are using forgeworld stuff as it doesn't really matter. I just kinda feel like I dont get an advantage as the only models for Grey Knights they have are some two-bit Inquisitors... I suppose a thunderhawk would be cool but meh. Anyways the one time i can think of where I was like Oh My Gosh I dont believe I agreed to playing this game was when a Player back homes list was the following.

Landraider Achilles
-Techmarine, x5scouts

Landraider Spartan
-Techmarine, x5scouts

x10 Scout squad

Bray'arth Ashmantle

x3 Venerable Dreadnoughts

x3 Ironclads

Ofcourse this list isnt as good now but in 5th editions I felt alot of grief for my lascannon-less Greyknights My only hope was my NDK to maul'em in CC. We ended up with a draw for that game still

[Learn2Eel]

Yowza!

Reminds me of a friend of mine who could fit in something like 10 Dreadnoughts or similar in a 1500 point list using that character that makes an entire legal army out of them (I think it is Bray'arth).

[Animus Silvanna]

Indeed I think this was one of my least satisfying games to play cause I just felt like he had so many advantages. Pretty much my Dreadknights where the only things that did anything and i was fortunate enough that my terminators were surviving the Ironclad assault long enough to still keep hold of 2 objectives. Imagine my delight as my krak grenade wielding strike squads face off against that monster of an Ironclad. So thankful for the new rules on being able to break contact from things you cant hurt.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah indeed, were the Ironclads in Lucius Drop Pods? If so :eek:

[thelion]

i have found that most of the FW stuff is ok but with how hard it is to shoot down flyers now (man do i miss the days my plasma cannons could knock them out of the sky) i have found that the air craft can be quite the pain to deal with. other than that i do not mind them.

[Simian]

I use a pair of Contemptor dreadnoughts in my Deathwing army virtually every time. Primarily its for the aesthetic but they are effective too. The group i game with have no problem with this.

[Toyz n the Hood]

Yeah indeed, were the Ironclads in Lucius Drop Pods? If so :eek:

I'm really happy with any Forgeworld item apart from the drop pods - first turn assaulting ironclads should make for a pretty short game!

[Cpt Codpiece]

the thing with the lucius though, you loose a FA slot per pod unless you are in an apoc game, or is that just the contemptor one? (my IA:A2 is in a box somewhere LOL).

again the thing about the landraider and russ variants some of them are usless in a normal game for their points, command tanks and the likes are really only useful in larger games where you have the points to spare.

[Chaoschrist]

I don't mind it if people bring forgeworld.

The biggest gripe I have, and this actually goes for FW and the normal GW models, is that I would like my opponent to tell me what it does if I ask him, including any weird and/or special rules. I'd hate it to be "well, it has 5 lascannon shots a turn" and later on in the game "oh, I also have a special rule that allows me to do X as well". The moment I ask, either show me in the rulebook or explain me what I need to know in regards to the model.

I'm not really an experienced player myself (I just don't play a lot) but that doesn't mean that I cannot learn the special rules of MY army and inform my opponent timely when he needs to know something about my models. And yes sometimes I need to pick up my book. I have had games where I asked my opponent "what does it do" and it ended up in "this and this... and something like that". Don't give me that "something like that". Exact and correct information please. And if we're going to use that "policy" I don't see a problem in using any kit so far.

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah CC, thats why i love programs like army builder and battlescribe.

you can make a list and either make a print out of your weapon tables for ease for both you and opponent, or you can put page numbers in your roster for quick linking to your codex entry for rules and/or weapon tables.

if you dont mind putting in an hour or two to learn how to make tables in battlescribe you can make your own roster lists to edit, i did with my mentor legion lists, added the proteus, spartan, contemptor, stormeagle and deimos predators to the basic C:SM list, with all of the options and weapons on printable tables, it even lets you add detailed special rules (dont tell GW though LOL) so both myself and my oppponent can have it at a glance, and have the IA books at hand for further inspection if need be.

[Denzark]

I find no difference between a set of rules from a codex I am not used to (I haven't played against nid's since 4th) and a FW book I don't know...

[Learn2Eel]

I don't mind it if people bring forgeworld.

The biggest gripe I have, and this actually goes for FW and the normal GW models, is that I would like my opponent to tell me what it does if I ask him, including any weird and/or special rules. I'd hate it to be "well, it has 5 lascannon shots a turn" and later on in the game "oh, I also have a special rule that allows me to do X as well". The moment I ask, either show me in the rulebook or explain me what I need to know in regards to the model.

I'm not really an experienced player myself (I just don't play a lot) but that doesn't mean that I cannot learn the special rules of MY army and inform my opponent timely when he needs to know something about my models. And yes sometimes I need to pick up my book. I have had games where I asked my opponent "what does it do" and it ended up in "this and this... and something like that". Don't give me that "something like that". Exact and correct information please. And if we're going to use that "policy" I don't see a problem in using any kit so far.

Haha, kind of different but I do remember a mate telling me about a game he played where the guy he was versing had a plasma cannon armed dreadnought, or something or other. He kept his Carnifex away from it because of what he could see it had. Then, after they had deployed and everything, the guy said "Oh sorry it's actually a CCW". To say my friend was annoyed would be an understatement. It gets better though! The guys Terminators all had Swords, so naturally my mate charged things that wouldn't be afraid of swords into the Terminators. Then the guy said "Oh they are actually daemon hammers". My mate got the guy back though - the guy didn't know that vehicles couldn't contest objectives/guys inside couldn't score, and he lost the game because of that!

I'm very much of the opinion that if you are doing some counts-as, you need to let your opponent know about it beforehand so that they don't feel cheated and can adapt to it as they would if it was strictly WYSIWYG. I don't mind counts-as at all, just as long as the person doing it (including me) makes absolutely sure the opponent knows what is what.

[Liazardman]

My Two Main armies are IG (My first army back in 4e) and Necrons (for about 6 years). Necrons I added the tomb stalker and found it was a bloody fire magnet due to how OP the rules seemed to my friends so it never did anything and then if I won it was because of the Stalker. The Stalker is a bit OP for its cost with all its weird rules that rant extra attacks and a bunch of USRs and immunity to poison but they still haven't released real rules for it (hopefully they will when the Necron IA comes out).

The other thing I have a lot of fun with in 6e is Armoured company. I tend to run a Command Vanquisher 2 conquerors 4 or 5 squads of infantry a couple hellhounds. Ive stopped running the Vulture with TL Punnisher cannon because it slaughters infantry and light Vehicles. I think its comparable to a rapid firing squad of Gauss Immortals/GK and slightly better than Tesla Immortals at long range. But because its on the highly mobile flier platform people tend to not be thrilled by it. So instead I now run the Lightning. To those who claim that tanks are dead try taking on a list with 9 chimera chasis vehicles (5 Chimera, 2 Hellhound, 2 Basilisk), 3 leman russes(Vanquisher, 2 Conqueors) a squad of 3 sentinels and an AV12 (vendetta) and AV10 (Lightning) flier. The issue is people being unprepared for something or not being 100% sure what to expect from something often scares them and the blame that list/thing for any problems they have

[Animus Silvanna]

Yeah indeed, were the Ironclads in Lucius Drop Pods? If so :eek:
No he just walked them on from reserve or else that would have been LIMIT! But I do a few counts-as for stuff mostly cause i either don't like how a model looks and prefer to customize my own or i just don't have enough hammers to put on everyone or swords (alot of my Knights are old Demonhunter models). But I always make sure as I setup i go over my list with my opponent even if they have already played me a thousand times just so they know what is what. I also usually have an Excel spreadsheet of everything as well for their viewing pleasure :P

[walrusman999]

Having recently read/skimmed most of the IA books, and my local group having little to no forgeworld items (I'm the only one who actually owns anything FW, just a few Basilisk cannon emplacements) I can say that yes most of it is fair. But agree that your opponent should clearly show you or explain what the abilities are of the FW unit in question should the need arise. I for one was recently caught off guard by the special Land Raider achilies with its thunderfire cannon and immunity to melta weapons/lance weapons (Which out of any thing related to forgeworld, i think is the single most piece of BS since necrons do not have that anymore on monoliths why does the imperium suddenly get it). My opponent was running the space marine FW army list from IA10-badab war (pt. 2) and so fielded a bunch of dreadnoughts and vindicators and a second thunderfire cannon. I did however get him back, as i sprung 3 vendettas on him at the last minute since they were a new addition to my army I had recently made. ;) His "living metal" rule on the LRaider was useless against 9 TL lascannons.

[Defenestratus]

Forgeworld stuff is no different than stuff in your codex from a "permission" perspective. Games of toy soldiers are completely voluntary and your opponent is free to not accept a game at any time regardless of whether or not you field FW.

"I'm going to use a nightwing in my list" is no different than say "I'm going to use a fireprism in my list".

In both cases your opponent has the free will to decline to play you based on what he perceives as fair or unfair.

[Caitsidhe]

All games between people are by mutual agreement. Even when you go to a tournament and don't know who your opponents (or have any clue about their lists) will be. You have agreed to go to the tournament and play by whatever is allowed. Forge World stuff which is stamped 40K is just as legal and appropriate as anything in the Codex. If someone shows up with it, I NEVER say anything other than request the rules of the thing if I'm unfamiliar with it (and thus need to know).

I should caveat that with the fact I don't refuse to play against anything within the scope of the game (decried as broken or not). I'm there to play the game, not to pass arrogant, self-serving judgement on other players.

[Trickstick]

I've started to run my armoured battle group list after picking up the new IA1. I have not had any problems with getting a game yet, although I only just had a game last night. I find that there is a lot more opposition on forums than in the real world. It is kind of annoying that FW isn't just accepted as fine by everyone. Some of my favourite games have been against FW lists, such as the ork kan list or the Tyrant's Legion.

It would be nice if FW was integrated into the in store order points fully, with free shipping over a reasonable amount. That would probably go a long way to fostering wider acceptance, as the question of "access" would be reduced.

[Chris Copeland]

I should caveat that with the fact I don't refuse to play against anything within the scope of the game (decried as broken or not). I'm there to play the game, not to pass arrogant, self-serving judgement on other players.

Arrogant and self serving? Hmmmm... are you taking the position that no lists are broken nor abusive? Are you arguing that there is no such thing as exploiting weaknesses in the rules for in-game advantage? (I'm looking at you, Fifth Edition Drago Wing). Cheers...

[Deadlift]

I love FW models, they are just that bit unique. I also have a bit of a love for dreadnoughts, which as we know FW do plenty of.
I have been known to run 1 or 2 contemptor dreads, mortis pattern with Kheres cannons and the cyclone. Game changing, maybe not but bloody effective against just about anything.
My next purchase has been a LR Achilles. Thinking of putting 5 tacticals and a tech marine inside and using it to camp on objectives.
Maybe FW stuff has given my marines a bit of a boost, but points wise I think the models are fairly costed. It evens out and I always spill the beans on the rules of anything my friends haven't seen before, before I start the game. I think that's the fairest way to deal with FW in your army in a non comp game. Just share what your models can do and I think it keeps everyone sweet.

[DarkLink]

Arrogant and self serving? Hmmmm... are you taking the position that no lists are broken nor abusive? Are you arguing that there is no such thing as exploiting weaknesses in the rules for in-game advantage? (I'm looking at you, Fifth Edition Drago Wing). Cheers...

I think what he's saying is that it's the player, not the list, that is the primary determinant of the enjoyability of the game. Though there are some people out there who are genuinely big enough douchebags to assume that anyone taking a competitive list is a dick.

Unfortunately, one of those individuals happens to be writing the rules for our local tournaments. Fortunately, his lack of rationality and objectivity has undermined his own little crusade, but that's another story.

[Chris Copeland]

I dunno, Darklink. I doubt that the divide between the Hobby-centric player and the Ultra-competitive player can ever be truly bridged (and I don't know that this thread is the place to do it). Even your comment about folks with concerns about folks with tournament style lists being "douche bags" seems a little too aggressive to have a nuanced discussion about the differences in play style (and I generally agree with much of what you post).

I am willing to politely disagree with my old friend Caitsidhe if he says that he cannot see that some folks push the rules to the limit to gain in-game advantage. I think that such things DO occur and I'm willing to acknowledge them. I know there is a divide between how the tournament-centric player views things versus how the hobbyist-player views things... it's a very old conversation.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think what he's saying is that it's the player, not the list, that is the primary determinant of the enjoyability of the game. Though there are some people out there who are genuinely big enough douchebags to assume that anyone taking a competitive list is a dick.


For the record, I think that there are dickish lists. There are also dickish players. A jerk can make even the most balanced game a chore. A good player can make it fun to play all but the most competitive lists (because the most competitive lists are the ones that you can't touch, and that's no fun for anyone). However... there's nothing quite like a fun game against a good opponent with evenly matched lists (or, at the very least, a situation where list + skill creates an even match). I do think there are lists that probably shouldn't exist - at least in a casual environment - and the game would probably be better if those loopholes were closed.

[Chris Copeland]

For the record, I think that there are dickish lists. There are also dickish players. A jerk can make even the most balanced game a chore. A good player can make it fun to play all but the most competitive lists (because the most competitive lists are the ones that you can't touch, and that's no fun for anyone). However... there's nothing quite like a fun game against a good opponent with evenly matched lists (or, at the very least, a situation where list + skill creates an even match). I do think there are lists that probably shouldn't exist - at least in a casual environment - and the game would probably be better if those loopholes were closed.

^This

[Caitsidhe]

Arrogant and self serving? Hmmmm... are you taking the position that no lists are broken nor abusive? Are you arguing that there is no such thing as exploiting weaknesses in the rules for in-game advantage? (I'm looking at you, Fifth Edition Drago Wing). Cheers...

You know better than that. I know full well there are broken lists. You also know that I never refuse to play them. I don't blame the players for Games Workshop's mistakes. They are playing by the rules which is all anyone can ask. They built their lists and acquired their models for the same reason I did, to PLAY them. Broken, beardy, and cheesy are all subjective notions so complain if you want (I do too) but I still play the game.

[Chris Copeland]

You know better than that. I know full well there are broken lists. That's what I thought... I'm glad we're on the same page on that... BTW, I also think it's about the opponent and his attitude more than anything. I also know that there are different levels of builds that cater to different styles of play... cheer.

As for Forge World etiquette perhaps it's my 4th Edition mindset, but I approach FW cautiously. The better I know someone the more willing I am to play against their FW stuff... I might pass on a pick up game but that would also depend on the vibe I was getting from the other player...

[Caitsidhe]

That's what I thought... I'm glad we're on the same page on that... BTW, I also think it's about the opponent and his attitude more than anything. I also know that there are different levels of builds that cater to different styles of play... cheer.

As for Forge World etiquette perhaps it's my 4th Edition mindset, but I approach FW cautiously. The better I know someone the more willing I am to play against their FW stuff... I might pass on a pick up game but that would also depend on the vibe I was getting from the other player...

The problem with this is Games Workshop has no game balance whatsoever. The broken lists don't have anything to do with Forge World. The only difference between Forge World stuff and normal stuff is YOU don't know anything about it. The novelty of it might surprise you, but that is about it. Why blame the other player for your own lack of knowledge? Besides, I'm willing to bet that most of the time you don't know anything about the other guys models that come from his codex unless it happens to be one you also play. Very few people, aside from the most competitive, have memorized all the units. In the end, being snobby toward a unit is just an excuse.

[Chris Copeland]

Not snobby... cautious. My feeling is that that the GW guys at least try to come up with internal balance for each codex. I don't blame anyone for anything. I'm just being honest when I say that I'd think about it a moment more if I was offered a pickup game and that other player was sporting a bunch of FW stuff... no snobbery involved.

[Trickstick]

It is perfectly fine to take a second to wonder if you want to play a FW list. If we take an Armoured Battle Group list as an example, maybe you didn't really bring much AT power with you on that day. I know if I wanted a game with ABG and the opponent had only token AV14 beating equipment, I would probably allow a few proxies to even it out.

I guess some people prefer to play against what they know, whereas others like to play against something new. For instance, if you were presented with two identical opponents, one with an Eldar army and the other with a Corsair army, which one would people choose to face? I would go for the Corsairs, as I like trying out all of the different rules.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the thing is.

an imperial guard is an IG, a space marine is a space marine (granted there are ranks, but generally the ones you will see are all the same). a vehicle with a landraider shape, be it old shape or more modern (lol nearly 20 years old), is gonna be a landraider with the weapons you see.
a rhino/chimera/leman russ/hammerhead/crisis suit/dreadnaught/stationary weapons platform chasis is guess what...........

gonna be pretty much the same as any other in the 40k universe, yeah there may be a rule attached to a specific vehicle/weapon but how far is it from any other rule in the game? oh it has ++ save? oh that weapon has same stats as this weapon just looks different, ooohhh nice that dreanought blows up just as easy as any other dreadnought when hit with enough firepower!

in a game depicting a universe at war, is it reasonable to expect a commander to know exactly what foe he will face at every battle? are all armies good against eachother? no that is the point....... is it fun to have a last stand with a hard as nails IC against an overwhelming foe? damn straight! and thats the point.

if you are a rules **** enough to complain about someone using a specialist item then you owe it to yourself and your opponent to know what each new release brings, otherwise stop complaining that you dont like X or you dont know the rules for Y, simply due to your own ignorance.

[Caitsidhe]

Not snobby... cautious. My feeling is that that the GW guys at least try to come up with internal balance for each codex. I don't blame anyone for anything. I'm just being honest when I say that I'd think about it a moment more if I was offered a pickup game and that other player was sporting a bunch of FW stuff... no snobbery involved.

Let me put it this way Kerstan. Before they shafted bugs wholesale, how do you think people felt when you would plop down an all Gene Stealer army? :) You had min/maxed your list very effectively. You could still assault into terrain at regular initiative, could assault from reserve, and it didn't take you long to buy a cheap throwaway unit to kill Daemon Princes and/or other monstrous creatures. Your list was not friendly. It was not casual. It was as cutthroat as anything I ever put on the board. You weren't just playing me with it. My point is YOU didn't think of your list as beardy, broken, or cheesy but I assure you that other people did. The people that had to play against your list prior to the shafting bugs got just accepted that is the way things are and did their best, adapted to your tactics, and that was that.

When Charles broke out his Jumanji Blood Crusher nightmare with Fateweaver in 5th Edition, we all knew the outcome of the game but people still played him in both pick up and tournament games. For my own part, I was honest about the power of the list and how bad my chances were. I relished the time I forced him to a draw. The point is that Charles collected his models just like you or I. He painted them or paid to get them painted. He worked out how he wanted it to play (same as you and I). Am I going to snub him and turn him down just because of the hard row? What kind of sportsman would it make me?

In regards to your other points, we disagree. Games Workshop doesn't have balance across the books. It doesn't have balance even within the books. If it did have internal balance at least, all the models would see regular use. Instead, there are large numbers of models in every book that never see the light of day because they have no purpose. That is not internal balance. There is no balance (or even lip service) to it in Games Workshop products. For that reason it makes no difference if someone uses Forge World (which tend to be weaker rather than stronger btw) or allies. The ultimate Games Workshop laziness was this:

Rather than attempt to actually balance the game and books against each other which would have required an enormous amount of effort on their part, they solved the issue as Alexander did with the Gordian Knot. They simply opened the floodgates and said "have at it boys." Being unwilling to do the work, the leveled (somewhat at least) the playing field by letting nearly everyone grab from other baskets.

It wasn't the ideal solution but it was better than nothing. Would I be able to compete with Necrons, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Eldar, or Tau without allies? No. That is the long and the short of it. My particular codex cannot match the volume of fire or deal with the flyers and long range spam. Allies, however, give me the options (if I avail myself of them) to do so. Would I be happier if each Codex was balanced in the larger picture and internally so I could play CSM without allies and still be able to keep up? Sure. I'd much prefer that. Games Workshop didn't go that route. Forge World was made 40K Approved as part of the same "open the floodgates" approach. The fact that their new method also encourages people to pick up a second army cannot be overlooked. Eh. My point is that it always seems like the other guy has an unfair advantage. That is because human beings see the world in a fairly biased sort of way.

You say you approach things cautious. I'll call BS on that one. :) You keep saying you are keeping an open mind at games and haven't judged yet but your tone, manner and enthusiasm say you have already judged. You have your version of my "smirk" too my friend. :) Don't for a moment assume you don't. You and I approach things entirely different. What you call caution means you:

1. Assume the other guy with this exotic thing must be assumed to be broken and games will prove this right or wrong.

while I

2. Assume that everything is just as balanced as anything else in this silly system and if fair to use until games prove otherwise.

What I'm saying is that some approach the game with the assumption of GUILTY until proven innocent. I just don't think that is cool.

[Chris Copeland]

if you are a rules **** enough to complain about someone using a specialist item then you owe it to yourself and your opponent to know what each new release brings, otherwise stop complaining that you dont like X or you dont know the rules for Y, simply due to your own ignorance.

Cpt Codpiece, you are reading me wrong. I am expressing a healthy dose of caution. I am being honest about it. There is no name calling coming from me nor am I talking in absolutes. The OP asks, "What is the ettiquette when people want to play with ForgeWorld toys?" My answer is, "That depends on how well I know the other player and the vibe I'm getting from him. I approach with caution. I don't automatically accept all games nor do I automatically turn them all down.

Are you suggesting that the only acceptable opinion to have here is just to automatically accept anything put before you? I am not being facetious. I am trying to suss out where you are coming from. Cheers. Cope

[Mr Mystery]

Aaaaaaaaaaand everyone simmer down!

Clash of opinions and approach is good. Name calling is not. And entering parent mode, I don't care who started what, the big man leaves it be.

[ElectricPaladin]

What's interesting to me about this conversation is the assumption that Forgeworld stuff is unbalanced. Assuming you leave off the stuff that's clearly labeled "Experimental Rules" and don't try to use the stuff labeled "Apocalypse Only" in standard games, all the stuff in Forgeworld seems pretty legit to me.

[Chris Copeland]

John, my friend, I don't agree that my Vth Edition Genestealer army was ever any more than a mid-tier army. You are right: I did put into the dakka-termagaunt/spore pod unit to deal with things like demon princes but I never saw that as pushing the army over the top. I haven't been able to assault at initiative into terrain since IVth Edition.

Charles' Bloodcrusher list was just about as abusive a list as I've ever seen. Even he admits it and notes that he wrote it to win stuff at tournaments with it. I don't think playing a casual game against it would be fun. Obviously, this is a matter of opinion.

Lastly, if I've been smirking, I apologize. I will endeavor to not do so. I will endeavor to be an enjoyable and pleasant opponent. I certainly don't think the world needs drama over toy soldiers. I am trying to answer the FW etiquette question honestly: I haven't seen enough FW stuff to know how well it balances with the codexes, I suspect the rules weren't written in tandem, and I don't have an "any game/any time" attitude. However, I'd like everyone to stop assuming that, just because I am cautious about FW, I am harshly judging other players. I think the hobby is more nuanced than that. I think the world is more nuanced than that. I clearly need to do a better job expressing that I believe that. Cheers! Cope

PS Do you think the Hobbit show that y'all are headed to tonight is sold out? I'm reconsidering your offer to see it with y'all tonight... cheers...


You say you approach things cautious. I'll call BS on that one. :) You keep saying you are keeping an open mind at games and haven't judged yet but your tone, manner and enthusiasm say you have already judged. You have your version of my "smirk" too my friend. :) Don't for a moment assume you don't. You and I approach things entirely different. What you call caution means you:

1. Assume the other guy with this exotic thing must be assumed to be broken and games will prove this right or wrong.

while I

2. Assume that everything is just as balanced as anything else in this silly system and if fair to use until games prove otherwise.

What I'm saying is that some approach the game with the assumption of GUILTY until proven innocent. I just don't think that is cool.

[Cpt Codpiece]

:) hehe erm my comment was not directed at any individual, rather the part of the community that to me seems afraid of a little bit of change/excitement. i dont know maybe its because i come from the time when WD led the way in rules and models rather than being a fancy £5 advert? there was a touch of wonder when you saw a new model vehicle being released, simply because it meant new rules and ways to play.

[Deadlift]

PS Do you think the Hobbit show that y'all are headed to tonight is sold out? I'm reconsidering your offer to see it with y'all tonight... cheers...

I took the wife to see it this afternoon, it was very very cool. If you can get a ticket I recommend it.

[Caitsidhe]

John, my friend, I don't agree that my Vth Edition Genestealer army was ever any more than a mid-tier army. You are right: I did put into the dakka-termagaunt/spore pod unit to deal with things like demon princes but I never saw that as pushing the army over the top. I haven't been able to assault at initiative into terrain since IVth Edition.

<chuckles> Of course you don't see it as anything better than mid-tier. That is entirely my point. We all see the world through glasses tinted to our preferences. I would suggest that many people playing lists you find potent or abusive probably see their lists the same way you saw yours.


Charles' Bloodcrusher list was just about as abusive a list as I've ever seen. Even he admits it and notes that he wrote it to win stuff at tournaments with it. I don't think playing a casual game against it would be fun. Obviously, this is a matter of opinion.

It was about as hard to beat as any list in 5th Edition could be. I had fun when I played it though. Holding him to a draw was satisfying enough. I just saw every game against him as my taking the Kobiashi Maru test. You do what you can and try for your personal best.


Lastly, if I've been smirking, I apologize. I will endeavor to not do so. I will endeavor to be an enjoyable and pleasant opponent.

That isn't why I brought it up. It is impossible NOT to do it when you aren't even aware you do it. We all have our little facial expressions which communicate something to the people who know us. Your expressions don't detract from my game. Just be aware that no matter what you "say" when we are talking about units and models, your expressions and body language often says something different. It is only human.


I certainly don't think the world needs drama over toy soldiers. I am trying to answer the FW etiquette question honestly: I haven't seen enough FW stuff to know how well it balances with the codexes, I suspect the rules weren't written in tandem, and I don't have an "any game/any time" attitude. However, I'd like everyone to stop assuming that, just because I am cautious about FW, I am harshly judging other players. I think the hobby is more nuanced than that. I think the world is more nuanced than that. I clearly need to do a better job expressing that I believe that. Cheers! Cope

Fair enough but I'm betting you have seen more Forge World than you know. Lots of Forge World has been in the lists played at DL over the years and I doubt you even know it was Forge World since neither of us would ask. We would just say, "what does that do" and get an explanation or look at the Armybuilder sheet. :)


PS Do you think the Hobbit show that y'all are headed to tonight is sold out? I'm reconsidering your offer to see it with y'all tonight... cheers...

I don't think it is sold out, but I would go online and get the tickets right away!

[Adra]

Its fine to use 40k legal FW models in your army as long as you have all of its rules and are prepared to let your opponent read them and answer any questions he may have. openness and honesty is the key here. Its easy to come across something your not sure on the rules for (at this very moment i cant remember any of the parasite engine rules) and FW is just a bit like that...easy to not know about it when it turns up. Throw your opponent a bone and let him have a look at the rules. If you dont then its a pretty good indication to the other guy that your not someone they want to play..

[Renegade]

I always, without fail, field my Malcador when using my Imperial Guard. I keep it fair, I don't have anything else as heavy support and have yet to have anyone complain.