Mauler Fiends & Spawn - Sleeper hits?

[DrLove42]

So having come fresh from a bunch of good games i've decided to shed some attention on a few underrated unit in the chaos book that i've been using

Chaos Spawn and the Maulerfiend

Both have a 12" move. Both can fleet and completly ignore cover. Had 4 good games yesterday and both these units were in combat turn 2 at the very latest, even on longways table deployment.

The Spawn get rage and random attacks. Meaning on the charge they get a minimum of 3 attacks each, up to a maximum of 8. Combine that with S5, the potential to count as poisoned, so re-rolling failed to wound, fearless and with the right marks T6 with 3 wounds these guys don't go away in a hurry. Marines need 6's to wound. These guys cn either tarpit the hell out of a unit (held up a 20 man Chaos Marine squad for 6 full turns, held up a Necron Destroyer Lord and 3 wraiths for 4 full turns) or smash in and crush them. Nothing can ID them in shooting. They took fire from 2 Contemptors, a squad of long fangs AND 3 land speeders in a single round of shooting, with no cover and only lost 2. They then charged said land speeders and smashed 2 of them in one round. A unit of 5 with Mark of Nurgle is only 180 points. And thats 15 T6 wounds. With 15-40 attacks on the charge.

Backing up the fast movers is a Maulerfiend. I learnt - people are terrifyed of this thing. People were redeploying deepstrikers and everything, using all heavy weapons on them. And thanks to their 5+ save and my intense luck, he rarely got scratched. And when he hits....boy does he hit. 4 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge, with the potential for another 2 melta hits. I take the magma cutters over the whips because;

a) he needs a bunch of attacks to be effective and

b) the biggest threat is grenades. Where the enemy only gets 1 attack anyway.

Except in places where I whiffed on my dice (seriously...2 turns, 7 attacks in total, not 1 4+ to hit), this guy smashed his way through everything I put in front of him. If its a vehicle and it hasn't moved, it is dead. Regardless of armour values. For 120pts you can't go wrong.

Working together presents a threat to the enemy. They're so fast, they need to be targetted. Combine them with a unit of bikers moving fast and making a threat of itself and the enemy has to target them or be killed, giving you a shield to move up slower units in rhinos or one foot.

Definently 2 of my favourite units in the dex. The obvious things (the dragon, the Apostle) all do very well, but theres just something about these guys that stands out.

What are peoples thoughts? Playing them or against them?

[Sly]

Spawn are awesome. On their own they are an excellent CC unit ready to tie up a lot of stuff and their type (not depending on armor saves) makes them a tough matchup against units that pay extra to ignore armor saves (Hammernators). They also make an excellent Bike/Jugger Lord delivery unit.

Maulers are far more specific. You cannot send 1 or 2 Walkers at the enemy, whether they're fast or not, as they will just eat melta and die. Unless you face an opponent who thinks that melta is dead in 6th edition. Screen them with some fast-moving Rhinos so that the enemy can't get within 6", advance them behind the aforementioned Spawn, etc, and they are excellent. Like most vehicles, they need screening to work best, but when properly screened they are excellent. I agree with regards to the magma cutters vs tendrils, although I think that the magma cutter rule details limits their use against infantry (as the attack from the magma cutter is limited to "one of the models hit", and if it's infantry, it's usually not there anymore by the time you make the cutter attack). But against horde units like that, the tendrils don't help much, either, and against multi-attack models that actually can hurt it with all attacks, the magma cutters are useful.

[Archon]

Spwans are fast moving annoyance for the opponent and/or a nice meatshield (the latter i haven´t try out in lack of fast moving HQs). Thats for real.

I´ved run the Mauler on a turnament:

Game 1: stunned by shooting with a three one (1) in a row, two were saves, one were the 2+ stunned-save ... not so much luck like you above
Game 2: stuck into a group of ten gk-termys - but holds 2 rounds and kills some, a necessary sacrifice, because they (the gk) put out a lot of firepower
Game 3: yay kills a redeemer LR (and to termies in collateral damage), gets a weapon destroyed by shooting and is killed by a chainfist
Game 4: attemps to break a section out of the fortress of redemption, but is killed before it could by bad luck ... 3 saves in a row faild, one of them 3+
Game 5: trys to sneak up the flank, gets halfway a lucky hit from a dark lance ... explodes ...

So yes, the enemy don´t like it and trys to kill it;)

[Learn2Eel]

I've always thought they were very good units, in particular the Maulerfiend. Having played against one and also having played a 2v2 where my ally used one, I can honestly say they are the priority target for pretty much everything that can shoot them. Scary as all hell.

I have a question actually; the Maulerfiend's entry states it has two magma-cutters. I've always taken this to mean that the magma-cutter rule would thus apply twice, like if you had two power swords (you get a bonus attack). I've always assumed, as such, that you get two magma-cutter hits or four magma-cutter hits, depending on how many of your normal attacks hit. I also assume it is the same with lasher tendrils, as the entry states it has a pair of them and each one reduces enemies in base contact A' value by 1. I thought I've been playing it right but apparently this isn't the case?

[DarkLink]

I haven't referenced the codex, but the pair is irrelevant I believe. The wording states that if 'a' cutter hits, you get the extra attack. It doesn't say 'for each claw that hits'. If one cutter hits, then a cutter has hit and you get one extra attack. If two cutters hit, then a cutter has hit and you get still just one extra attack. See the difference?

But check the wording in the codex, because I didn't.

[Learn2Eel]

From page 68 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines;

"If a Maulerfiend hits with at least one Attack in the Fight sub-phase, it may make an additional Attack with one of its magma cutters against one of the models it hit. If it hit with all of its Attacks, it instead makes two additional Attacks with its magma cutters against one of the models it hit."

Ah, looks like I've been playing it wrong - although I don't have one, so in reality opponents in my LGS have. The way it is worded implies that only one magma cutter hits if you hit with at least one attack, hence why there is only one bonus attack. You use both of them if you hit with all of your attacks, meaning you get two bonus attacks.
Thanks for clearing that up!

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think they are terrible units. I disagree with many of you and don't find them particularly great either. Points are just too tight in the 1850 games I play in to put in something I consider largely neutral. I find them entirely too hit or miss. They sometimes make their points back, but usually do not. The Maulerfiend is a vehicle and unless it makes its points back on its first turn the probability of it doing so drops dramatically. The Spawn get shot down nine times out of ten. You could argue they are drawing off fire from other units, and this would be true. It does not, however, tend to cover the price.

[Sly]

The Spawn get shot down nine times out of ten. You could argue they are drawing off fire from other units, and this would be true. It does not, however, tend to cover the price.

I run them with MoN. With T6, the firepower that drops them would drop my Rhinos, and I need the Rhinos more. So either the Spawn make it to CC, or each one approximately saved a Rhino with its death, at about the same points, and not needing to buy a unit to get the Rhino. I find them worthwhile just as fire sponges. The enemy is going to shoot and kill SOMETHING, after all, and if it's the relatively cheap T6 Spawn, that's fine with me.

[Kirsten]

I love the spawn and the maulerfiends, both can be very nasty. A unit of spawn is a real nightmare to get rid of. My opponent has about seven of them and is thrilled he can now actually use them effectively. I was lucky enough to splat the entire unit in one go with a vindicator, otherwise I was struggling.

[DrLove42]

Grate thing is, Mark of Nurlge and that Vindicator can't ID them.

And Caitsidhe if you get them shot that fast either EVERYTHING is shooting them or you're playing them badly.

A full squad of long fangs might kill 1 out of cover a turn. Maybe not even that in cover.
A full squad of marines (20 shots, 13 hits,2 wounds) doesn't kill one
Hell even a BS5 Contemptor with 2 Souped up Assault Cannons only managed to but 4 wounds on the unit....

[Kirsten]

Grate thing is, Mark of Nurlge and that Vindicator can't ID them.

yeah I know but he runs a tzeentch list and I don't want any for my iron warriors, don't really work. maulerfiend though is a real possbility

[Caitsidhe]

And Caitsidhe if you get them shot that fast either EVERYTHING is shooting them or you're playing them badly.

Everything is not shooting at them, so that eliminates the first of the only two options you list. :) I suppose it is possible I'm playing them badly. Might I suggest a third option? The META I am in has already embraced the fact that the gun is king entirely. The amount of DAKKA on the battlefield makes it look like the start of the original Terminator movie with the night sky literally on fire with fire. In my META (and those nearby) GOOD dedicated assault units don't live that long, much less Spawn. The number of shooting units on the board in the places I play are huge and the majority of competent players form gun lines with overlapping fields of fire. You may know a magic trick or two that I don't that somehow gets the Spawn through that alive, and I never turn down useful advice. I'm all ears.

[DrLove42]

Guess it depends on the cover you play. I've nevr had a problem sticking to cover and getting forward easily without drawing too much attention. With their 12" guarenteed move and then either a rerollable 6" run or a rerollable 12" means they stick out of sight until they pounce. You need to hit the biggest threat first and hope the assault ends in your opponents assault phase or they will be sitting ducks

Having the spawn paired with the maulerfiend helps split fire a bit as well, and then I run a unit of Nurlge T6 bikers to add a triple threat

[Caitsidhe]

Guess it depends on the cover you play. I've nevr had a problem sticking to cover and getting forward easily without drawing too much attention. With their 12" guarenteed move and then either a rerollable 6" run or a rerollable 12" means they stick out of sight until they pounce. You need to hit the biggest threat first and hope the assault ends in your opponents assault phase or they will be sitting ducks

Having the spawn paired with the maulerfiend helps split fire a bit as well, and then I run a unit of Nurlge T6 bikers to add a triple threat

Exactly what size game are we talking about. The slots and points listed right there are considerable. Perhaps you could give us the list you are playing and drawing examples from here?

[DrLove42]

OK. Last week was a small game tournement. 1100 points, 4 games in one day.

Maulerfiend
4 Nurgle Spawn
2 Oblits
Dragon
18 Cultists
11 Cultists
Dark Apostle
5 chosen, 4 meltaguns
Defence Line, Quad gun

I went 3W-0D-1L. And that loss was a painfully close thing. One of those wins was against a Necron footsloggers. And another was against a Sisters army with lots of Melta....admittadly my Maulerfiend died in that game to a single overwatch meltashot....(said Sister then got a 2nd six and shot down my dragon...grrrr)

In my 1850 list i add a bunch of other stuff (spawn up to 5, bikers, more cultists, 2 squads of marines and a lord) and they still work just as well

[Caitsidhe]

Hrm. I can only say that list composition is very different in your META. I do not think such a list would do well in mine.

[Tynskel]

You should post a list.

[Caitsidhe]

You should post a list.

I have. Here is the standard 1850 "all comers" I have been using in competitions and winning with:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?26568-Varrater-Grim-(Traitors-Grim)

[Tynskel]

yeah, but that's not 1000 points, what is your 1000 point list?

[DrLove42]

Also....i'm glad thats your meta not mine

If thats the kind of min/max spam ally-fest that you need to play to win i'd stop playing 40K really quickly

[Caitsidhe]

yeah, but that's not 1000 points, what is your 1000 point list?

We don't play under 1500.

[Caitsidhe]

Also....i'm glad thats your meta not mine

If thats the kind of min/max spam ally-fest that you need to play to win i'd stop playing 40K really quickly

If it puts things in perspective for you, my list isn't anywhere near as min/max as some. My list is actually just a competitive all-comer list. I actually vary shooting with some assault. I can't hope to match the volume of fire brought by pure IG, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, or Tau. You can see why I can't put the kind of value on Spawn or a Daemon Engine that you do.

[notsoevil]

I'm really looking forward to making 5-7 Spawn. The models are sooooooo Chaos-y, and damn tough to get rid of, so having them hunt around the battlefield is a great site to see.

[Lord Krungharr]

I have played with a Traitor Guard Allied list to my Chaos Daemons core. That fared reasonably well, perhaps I'll give the Guard a go with my Chaos Marines now too. I have never spent 370 points on an HQ before in a non-Apocalypse game...making the Black Mace Daemon Prince a super-psyker would be really fun to try. Or really sad when he gets shot to hell, although if he can get Biomancy Iron Arm then he'd be in good shape!

But Spawn are amazing for delivering my Khorne JuggerLord with the Fury Axe. But you have to have something else to assault at the same time, so the other Champion can do the Challenges. Nothing's more disappointing than charging a big unit and only being able to Challenge a Nob or Space Marine sergeant, whilst the Spawn take it from the rest of the enemy unit. The Nurgle Biker Lord with Black Mace is surprisingly good even though not AP2; but again, run him with Bikers for best results with the Challenges. I give all the Lords Melta Bombs now, just in case they run up against Walkers (like the Maulerfiend !), although that many S6 attacks from the Axe is pretty good for glancing them to death at I5.

I haven't tried the Maulerfiend yet, and while fast, I think taking 1 or 2 of them with Huron Blackheart to make them Outflanking, would be a cool way to use them. In a Hammer n Anvil game they'd come in from the long edges and have the speed to assault when they come in.

The Forgefiend is pretty decent, although a couple Obliterators are better I think. But the model is cool!

[Caitsidhe]

I have played with a Traitor Guard Allied list to my Chaos Daemons core. That fared reasonably well, perhaps I'll give the Guard a go with my Chaos Marines now too. I have never spent 370 points on an HQ before in a non-Apocalypse game...making the Black Mace Daemon Prince a super-psyker would be really fun to try. Or really sad when he gets shot to hell, although if he can get Biomancy Iron Arm then he'd be in good shape!

He does fine as long as you use a Nurgle DP and keep him to cover. And he destroys pretty much everything he hits. Keep him out of combat with the Necron Lord using Mind Shackle Scarabs. Shoot that creep to death or swarm him with Plague Marines using their Poison knives to bring him down by volume of attacks.

[Learn2Eel]

I have played with a Traitor Guard Allied list to my Chaos Daemons core. That fared reasonably well, perhaps I'll give the Guard a go with my Chaos Marines now too. I have never spent 370 points on an HQ before in a non-Apocalypse game...making the Black Mace Daemon Prince a super-psyker would be really fun to try. Or really sad when he gets shot to hell, although if he can get Biomancy Iron Arm then he'd be in good shape!

But Spawn are amazing for delivering my Khorne JuggerLord with the Fury Axe. But you have to have something else to assault at the same time, so the other Champion can do the Challenges. Nothing's more disappointing than charging a big unit and only being able to Challenge a Nob or Space Marine sergeant, whilst the Spawn take it from the rest of the enemy unit. The Nurgle Biker Lord with Black Mace is surprisingly good even though not AP2; but again, run him with Bikers for best results with the Challenges. I give all the Lords Melta Bombs now, just in case they run up against Walkers (like the Maulerfiend !), although that many S6 attacks from the Axe is pretty good for glancing them to death at I5.

I haven't tried the Maulerfiend yet, and while fast, I think taking 1 or 2 of them with Huron Blackheart to make them Outflanking, would be a cool way to use them. In a Hammer n Anvil game they'd come in from the long edges and have the speed to assault when they come in.

The Forgefiend is pretty decent, although a couple Obliterators are better I think. But the model is cool!

Just remember, the Master of Deception Warlord trait (Huron's) only applies to Infantry.

[Caitsidhe]

Just remember, the Master of Deception Warlord trait (Huron's) only applies to Infantry.

What he says above is very important. You can get around the infantry limitation by giving the Outflanking to an Independent Character (who is Infantry) and then joining said Independent Character to a non-infantry unit. This will confer the the ability, HOWEVER, Independent Characters still CANNOT join certain units and Mauler Fiends happen to fall in this grouping.

[Learn2Eel]

That is a good point. Also remember that if you Outflank Huron with another unit they only count as one of your D3 units, provided you gave it to Huron. This does not apply for Infiltrate though I believe.