Thinking of doing Tyranids, a few questions.

[RGilbert26]

I've been thinking of switching to Nids and I've got a few questions.

1. With 6th what units are worth taking and which ones should I stay away from?

2. Which upgrades should always be taken and which ones only with points left?

3. While I know Nids don't get any allies except themselves? Do they get access to any fortifications? (Ignoring any that come in future WDs)

4. Anything else you can think of to help :P

[Kirsten]

easy, everything that looks awesome. love their big plastic monster kits, carnifex, trygon, hive tyrant, oh my

[Mystery.Shadow]

Tyranids are my first army, and still my favorite!

My favorite place to talk 'Nid has been www.warpshadow.com (sorry if cross-forum'ing is not kosher) But many units are much more efficient than others.

Some superstars have been:

The Swarmlord
Flying Hive Tyrants
Tervigons
Hive Guards
Trygons
Ygmarl Genestealers

But overall, Tyranids are a synergy-army. Units buffing other units is their strength. Separately, they will fall like a house of MTG cards.


I started 40k because of the look of Tyranids. And even today, many years later, I still like the way they look.

[Learn2Eel]

Hey mate, I'm a new Tyranid player myself and I've been learning from quite a few knowledgeable posters about the answers to questions similar to yours. I'll see if I can help you with this stuff, but just remember I am still a Tyranid-noob myself haha.

1. To make this a bit more readable, I'll break this down into Force Organization slots;

HQ
The Swarmlord - the most powerful close combat death star in the game if it gets the right psychic powers, at least for its' points. It requires at least one or two Tyrant Guard though to get into combat safely. Very expensive though, but usually very good.
Hive Tyrant (walking) - very powerful, very hard to kill when paired with Tyrant Guard and Armoured Shell. Use it to provide fire support and buffs for nearby Tyranids and in general just soak up firepower.
Hive Tyrant (flying) - very nasty, arguably the best kind of Hive Tyrant, this one you should be giving either combat upgrades or paired brainleech Devourers to take on other flyers and really lay the smack down on anything else.
Tyrant Guard - always worth taking either for the Swarmlord or Hive Tyrant, these are well worth the points just to get their 'cargo' where it needs to be.
Tervigon - these are fantastic, but I should really address them as Troops instead, where they are insanely good. Arguably one of the best units in the game depending on how you upgrade them, they turn the Termagants you start with and spawn into decent combat units, as well as providing great support powers and even becoming close combat monsters with the right upgrades, all for a very good cost. These are probably the best unit in the codex right now.
Tyranid Prime - very cheap and very killy, a minimum triple digit one will usually wipe the floor with Space Marine Captains that are quite a bit more expensive. That is saying something. Also provide great buffs to Warriors, and make a good 'tank' for units like Zoanthropes. The reason you take them usually is their laughably low cost compared to the other choices.
The Parasite of Mortrex - 6th has buffed this bug quite a bit, but I still think it is outshone by the other choices. Situational, but ok.

Elites
Hive Guard - These are the best tank-hunters in our codex, period, and one of the most efficient in general. They are hard to kill, don't need LoS, ignore pretty much all cover saves (no Jink or Smoke Launchers for you!) and put out a decent number of BS4 shots. They aren't very good against infantry but they will make a mockery of any AV12 or lower vehicle.
Lictors - not good at all, these are very expensive for what they do and really not that useful. Their combat abilities aren't all that good, though using one to get reserves bonuses isn't out of the question. Generally avoid these though.
Deathleaper - a much more expensive Lictor, but this guy is actually worth his points (depending on who you ask). He has a lot of very nifty abilities, and has a permanent 4+ cover save out in the open which becomes a 2+ in any kind of terrain. He can also appear and disappear off the table, great for luring enemy units into relatively empty areas and then fleeing, leaving them stranded. Very good, but requires a smart mind to use.
Venomthropes - these are very good as support units, providing walking cover for the Bugs and doing relatively fine for themselves as well. These are worthwhile for any horde army.
Zoanthropes - these are arguably our most versatile unit, which is strange considering they have no potential upgrades. With two psychic powers base, one for blasting infantry and the other for annihilating tanks, as well as a 3+ invulnerable save, these are probably the third best Elites choices we have, behind Hive Guard and the Doom. Drop them in a Mycetic spore or run them around, they will do well. With 6th, they can swap their powers out and do some really crazy, versatile stuff, becoming moving support platforms that give irrational buffs to the army.
The Doom of Malan'tai - This thing was considered broken even in a mech-heavy meta, now that footslogging armies are much more common, this is in its prime. Always take a mycetic spore. Seriously, this thing is likely either to wipe out a third of your opponent's army, or at least make its points back. Only if you are really unlucky will it fail to makes up for the investment. My pick for our best Elites choice, and that is saying something.
Pyrovores - Do not take them, and don't look back. You won't regret a thing.
Ymgarl Genestealers - Assaulting of Reserves, stat boosts at the start of the assault phase, all the nastiness of Genestealers. Very good, also a 4+ armour save means you won't spontaneously explode when charging Space Marines. A good unit, but hard to use.

Troops
Warriors - a good unit, one is as tough against small arms fire as a Terminator. However, prone to instant death from Psybolt Autocannons, missile launchers and the like. These are good support units, and can be kitted out as nasty shooting or combat units, though the costs can add up.
Genestealers - not that good in 6th, these should be used either as Broodlord delivery squads (the Broodlord is insane with the new challenge rules) or as simple distraction units that force your opponent to shoot them or be slaughtered in combat. Stick to cover.
Mycetic Spore - works best with Zoanthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Devourer-armed Termagants, and lone Carnifexes' with two brainleech devourers.
Termagants - these aren't that good by themselves, but become extremely good for their cost when paired with a Tervigon - as in, they actually become very decent close combat units, rolling with Poison (4+), Counter Attack and Furious Charge (if you upgrade the Tervigon with them, which you should). If you are taking Tervigons, small units of 10 are fine, otherwise, always go for at least 20. Devourer-armed Termagants are very good, but should be used in a mycetic spore in smaller squads. Don't bother with the other upgrades.
Hormagaunts - quite good, one of the most points-effective close combat units Tyranids have, run them in hordes and combined with Fearless they are now awesome tarpit units that do quite a bit of damage themselves. Paired with Poison, there's nothing they can't drown in wounds.
Ripper Swarms - they aren't that good, only use them to provide cover or tarpits for your other units. They die when out of Synapse range, and they can't score, so I really wouldn't recommend them most of the time.

Fast Attack
Tyranid Shrikes - expensive, but very nasty once they get into an assault. They are mobile, less durable than Warriorsand devastating on the charge. Just use them with care.
Raveners - fragile, like Shrikes, but are similarly nasty in an assault. These are cheaper, much quicker and have a better average charge range due to Fleet. Without Synapse, they can Rage and potentially get 6 attacks each on the charge - whilst their attacks tend not to be as powerful as Shrike attacks, they get a whole lot more of them. These also work well as shooting units, but usually you want them to be charging isolated, smaller units, such as Devastators. They are very good in that capacity, like Shrikes.
Sky-Slasher Swarms - flying Ripper Swarms, these might be more useful, as they also provide cover for the bigger monsters more easily. However, I still think they aren't that good.
Gargoyles - Even more cost-effective than Hormagaunts, what with auto-wounds similar to Poison in Warhammer Fantasy, guns as well as wings which provide Hammer of Wrath. With Poison and Adrenal Glands being cheaper for them, you really cannot go wrong with Gargoyles - they are also great for providing mobile cover for flying monstrous creatures.
Harpy - this is like a cheaper, but less effective flying Hive Tyrant. Prone to instant-death from S10, and will be shredded by Hydra Autocannons. However, when it is flying it will be tough to take down - also very mobile, providing a lot of firepower. You can give it anti-tank weapons, but I would stick with the anti-infantry guns and bring the pain. Charging isolated units and vehicles is also a good idea, due to being a monstrous creature. Handle with care, but a good unit nonetheless.
Spore Mine Cluster - these are ok, but the points are better spent elsewhere as all a savvy player needs to do is either avoid them or tank shock them. Fun to use though.

Heavy Support
Carnifex - Unless you are using them as 'Dakkafexes' (two twin-linked brainleech devourers), I usually wouldn't bother - they are generally too expensive for what they do. Especially in 6th, even a support unit such as the Carnifex outmatches them for combat ability given the right upgrades. The Dakkafex however provides a lot of high strength firepower, which can do a lot of damage to infantry, light vehicles and even some flyers.
Old One Eye - An even more ridiculously over-costed close-combat Carnifex, do not bother with it unless you want to use it in a fluffy/cool list. Great model and all, also a throwback to old codices, but ultimately, way too expensive for what it does, as in hugely so.
Biovores - these are quite under-rated, they are relatively cheap models that bring long-range Barrage weapons designed to hurt Infantry (S4 AP4). This might not seem all that good, but the anti-infantry suppression due to Pinning, the decent strength and AP, as well as the new "barrage sniping" rules make these models you should really consider.
Trygon - a much more cost-effective close combat monstrous creature than the Carnifex, this is quick, can deep-strike with similar rules to Drop Pods in regards to scatter and mishaps, has a high WS, has a boat load of attacks, and is very tough to take down. They are a massive target though, and will be shot at. Taking two means at least one of them will make combat, but Trygons are expensive. They generally don't need upgrades, the only worthwhile one is Toxin Sacs. Upgrading it to a Prime isn't a bad idea, but with Rage now being so much better, it isn't as necessary as it might have been before.
Mawloc - a cheaper, less combat-savvy Trygon that instead can 'burrow' each turn and automatically emerge the next, doing a S6 AP2 large blast where it arrives, hitting vehicles on side armour. This is quite good in the right hands, and can be an awesome method of breaking up 'bunkers' or tight formations - all surviving units have to move out of the way once the large blast is resolved or be destroyed! These are always a good choice, especially for the cost.
Tyrannofex - I think these are too expensive for what they do. As an anti-tank platform, it has range and high strength, but few shots and mediocre BS, meaning it isn't at all cost-effective. As an anti-infantry unit, it puts out a lot of templates and shots, but ultimately you could get so much more firepower for the same cost. These are ok, and insanely durable (probably the hardest monstrous creature in any standard codex to kill) though like Carnifexes, over-costed for what they do.

2. Depends on the unit. Toxin Sacs are always good, Adrenals only on Tervigons, Crushing Claws are good mostly on Tervigons, Brainleech Devourers are awesome, etc.

3. Yes, they just can't man the guns.

4. Buy what you like the look of! For a competitive base to a list, invest in Tervigons, Termagants, Hive Guard and flying Hive Tyrants. Also, as Mystery Shadow points out, we are an army based on synergy. Our units need to work together to be effective, the best example being Tervigons and Termagants, or Harpies and Gargoyles.

[RGilbert26]

Thanks for the big reply Learn2Eel, was a nice read :)

Now all i have to do is work out a 1500pt list :P

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I've been thinking of switching to Nids and I've got a few questions.

1. With 6th what units are worth taking and which ones should I stay away from?

There is very little I would say explicitly avoid, because tyranids are one of those synergy horde armies, its weird. If you use a unit correctly they can do amazing things. My only advice is to avoid the pyrovore, I have yet to find them useful, or worth giving up a useful elite slot. The elite slot for nids is one of the most difficult to decide on what to take because there are 3 really amazing units in there that it would almost be silly not to take, competetively at least:

Doom of Malan'Tai (cannot stress how amazing this unit is, it either draws so much fire as to protect your other guys, just destroys enemy infantry, or some mixture of the two. I have yet to have a single game where this guy didn't pay for himself twice over.)

Zoanthropes (3+ invuln, 2 wounds, and you can create some seriously crazy psychic choirs with these guys if you know what you are doing, and giving yourself a lot of power diversity.)

Hive Guard (Ignore Cover saves, dont need line of sight, 24" str8 ap 4. They are great if you keep them in synapse, usless if you do not. These guys can even ignore jink saves, which really screws up things like smoke and skimmers)

Also flying hive tyrants are a ton of fun to play around with.



2. Which upgrades should always be taken and which ones only with points left?

My only upgrades I ALWAYS take are for my tervigon, and that is toxin sacs and adrenal glands, because they impart this same upgrade on all termagants within 6 inches of them.



3. While I know Nids don't get any allies except themselves? Do they get access to any fortifications? (Ignoring any that come in future WDs)

you can use any fortification you can find in the book with nids, you just cannot use weapon emplacements, so no quad guns and the like. It is stupid, but I suggest doing an aegis defense line and making it tyranidey, because even that cover save and the like you can do with that is awesome. So worth the 50 points.


4. Anything else you can think of to help :P

the trick with tyranid is getting your synergy right, and keeping your synapse in order. If your synapse is broken you can lose a game really quickly, though I have turned around a no synapse game into a win, by sheer luck. This is one of those armies that you need to get used to having a tough time with AV14 though, other than that they are fun and versatile. Just be prepared to paint a lot of little guys unless you make an MC list from hell, but even then to do troops tervigons you need termagants out the wazoo. I do love my bugs though and they are a ton of fun to play.



So good luck with your deciding, just have fun with it, and pick out units that you think are cool, thats what I did and I didn't regret a moment of it.

[RGilbert26]

Well im looking to have as many MCs on the table as possible, so im thinking of a Flyrant, two Tervigons, one or two Harpies and same with Trygons/Primes and a TFex possibly with the big gun. Then have Zoans and HGuards, fill rest out with two units 15 Termagants and if there's points left two units of 20 Hormagaunts.

All the while trying to fit it into 1500pts, lol.

[RGilbert26]

Wrote up a list:

Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- Twin-linked Devourers with brainleech

Tervigon
- Adrenal Glands
- Toxin Sacs
- Catalyst
- Onslaught
X2

Hive Guard Brood (3)

Zoanthrope Brood (3)

Harpy

Trygon
- Prime

Termagant Brood (10)
X2

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Wrote up a list:

Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- Twin-linked Devourers with brainleech

Tervigon
- Adrenal Glands
- Toxin Sacs
- Catalyst
- Onslaught
X2

Hive Guard Brood (3)

Zoanthrope Brood (3)

Harpy

Trygon
- Prime

Termagant Brood (10)
X2

another cool thing to run is a second set of devourers on the hive tyrant, so many shots its not funny, then you can use psy powers to keep yoruself alive during the enemy's turn.

The dakkafex is also a cool heavy support, carnifex with two twin linked devourers, it is a great way to deal with flyers, because even though you still need 6's to hit, you get so many twin linked str 6 shots that statistically 4 are bound to get through at least.

This list looks fun though, and I wish you the best of luck with it.

[Slacker]

I have recently had some success with running a Hive Tyrant with Old Adversary, armored shell, TL-Devourers w/brainleech, and some guard. Throw in some termagants with devourers (either starting on the table or dropped by spore) staying within range of the Tyrant's Preferred Enemy bubble, they can really pump out a lot of hurt.

Also of note with the Hive Tyrant, I would pretty much always swap out his psychic powers for Biomancy powers.

I have also had some luck with running Zoanthropes in units of 3s and having one of them swap out for telekinesis powers, I think it really adds some versatility to the unit. The chance to get Gate and blip around the board is kind of neat, and if you decide (based upon your opponent's army) that you don't need them for anti-tank you could swap out more of them.

Personally I've come to the conclusion that the upgrade to a Trygon Prime is too expensive for what it provides. With the changes to Rage and the fact that the Trygon is already fearless without synapse the 6 extra shots don't seem worth it. In a pinch I can see it called for if the army overall just needs more synapse in it, but I would look elsewhere first before spending that 40 pts there.

[RGilbert26]

If i drop the Prime upgrade that gives me 4 extra Termagants per brood.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

i also want to start a Nid army after many years of playing Orks. I want to make a list at 600 points so that I can use it at my local club and at the school league tournement. No restrictions on the list, but form playing Orks on the open dayt, I know there is gonna be lots of fliers so what can I use for Anti-flyer so I could possibly do well in the tourney???

[Caitsidhe]

It depends. You can build a very competitive (but repetitive) shooting Gaunt list. You buy the maximum number of shooty-gaunts maximum shots and poison for when they do end up in close combat. You stick some of them in Mycetics (or all if a big game) and you use pure volume of fire to break down an opponent. A unit of twenty of the buggers geared for shooting make sixty shots. You round out the corners with your HQ and synapse and/or armor killers. It is rather dull but by sheer volume of fire and poison volume in close combat you can do a tremendous amount of damage in 6th Edition.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

It depends. You can build a very competitive (but repetitive) shooting Gaunt list. You buy the maximum number of shooty-gaunts maximum shots and poison for when they do end up in close combat. You stick some of them in Mycetics (or all if a big game) and you use pure volume of fire to break down an opponent. A unit of twenty of the buggers geared for shooting make sixty shots. You round out the corners with your HQ and synapse and/or armor killers. It is rather dull but by sheer volume of fire and poison volume in close combat you can do a tremendous amount of damage in 6th Edition.

But if the tournement is 600 points i doub that can deal with fliers

[rtmaitreya]

Fliers are expensive, put out moderate attack power, and have very high resilience. You have no way to get cheap skyfire, as your flying beasts are very very expensive. The best you could manage is a bastion with quad gun. You have to have one unit of 10 termagants on the battlements to allow the quad gun to autofire at BS2, and you may want to have a second unit of 10 termagants inside the bastion to allow the heavy bolters to autofire at BS2. That's a lot of points invested in one model on the table just for 4 twin linked BS2 shots at a flyer, although it's a decent centerpiece if you plop it near an objective.

The way you deal with fliers as a Tyranid in a small point game is to completely ignore them. Seriously. Put as many cheap boots on the ground as you can manage, and flood the objectives. Let them zoom around and plink away all game long. Make sure you have last turn against Necron so you can predict where they will try to beam down and deploy for last turn objective grabbing.

A reasonable alternative is to take a tervigon and lots of gaunts for your list, or even better yet, a broodlord HQ, two tervigons, and two min units of gaunts for your entire list. Go for Telekinesis powers for your tervigons (3 powers each). Roll them one at a time hoping for Obscurum Mechanicum, which auto hits fliers with haywire. You have a 56% chance to get it on each tervigon. Once you get OM as a power, use all remaining powers on bio powers. If you have one single Tervigon with that power, protect it and use it to plink any flier off the table. Otherwise ignore the damned things.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

Fliers are expensive, put out moderate attack power, and have very high resilience. You have no way to get cheap skyfire, as your flying beasts are very very expensive. The best you could manage is a bastion with quad gun. You have to have one unit of 10 termagants on the battlements to allow the quad gun to autofire at BS2, and you may want to have a second unit of 10 termagants inside the bastion to allow the heavy bolters to autofire at BS2. That's a lot of points invested in one model on the table just for 4 twin linked BS2 shots at a flyer, although it's a decent centerpiece if you plop it near an objective.

The way you deal with fliers as a Tyranid in a small point game is to completely ignore them. Seriously. Put as many cheap boots on the ground as you can manage, and flood the objectives. Let them zoom around and plink away all game long. Make sure you have last turn against Necron so you can predict where they will try to beam down and deploy for last turn objective grabbing.

A reasonable alternative is to take a tervigon and lots of gaunts for your list, or even better yet, a broodlord HQ, two tervigons, and two min units of gaunts for your entire list. Go for Telekinesis powers for your tervigons (3 powers each). Roll them one at a time hoping for Obscurum Mechanicum, which auto hits fliers with haywire. You have a 56% chance to get it on each tervigon. Once you get OM as a power, use all remaining powers on bio powers. If you have one single Tervigon with that power, protect it and use it to plink any flier off the table. Otherwise ignore the damned things.


Tah pal. U are a legend.

[Learn2Eel]

I find Tyranids can ignore flyers better than most other armies. There are no vehicles to one-shot, there can be so many models (quite feasibly) that it is hard for fliers to even land in a good position, and the monstrous creatures are all tough as hell.

[Anggul]

Wrote up a list:

Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- Twin-linked Devourers with brainleech

Tervigon
- Adrenal Glands
- Toxin Sacs
- Catalyst
- Onslaught
X2

Hive Guard Brood (3)

Zoanthrope Brood (3)

Harpy

Trygon
- Prime

Termagant Brood (10)
X2

This is an example of a pretty standard kind of Tyranid list that a lot of people use. You can be pretty sure that it will work, do it's job rather well and you'll have some fun doing it to, which is of course the most important thing. Once you've got a good grasp of how they play, though, don't be afraid in the slightest to branch out and try other, less immediately obvious things. It's one of the most fun things about playing Tyranids and a lot of players have done really well with some pretty out-there lists and tactics.

[RGilbert26]

Anggul, please note that it's now 2x 14 Termagant Broods as i've removed the Prime upgrade from the Trygon :p

On Thursday i saw a Tyranid list that included a Flyrant with two sets of Twin-linked Devourers, one Tervigon with one unit of Termagants, Tyranid Warrior Prime with a load of Warriors, Mycetic Spore with a Pyrovore inside (which promptly got blown up in one shot) and a Tyrranofex with the big gun. It was an okay army bit seemed a bit of a mismatch.

[dwez]

The best you could manage is a bastion with quad gun. You have to have one unit of 10 termagants on the battlements to allow the quad gun to autofire at BS2, and you may want to have a second unit of 10 termagants inside the bastion to allow the heavy bolters to autofire at BS2.

The Quad Gun is still a 'gun emplacement' on a Bastion [just like on a Defence Line pg105] therefore it doesn't get auto-fire, only the Heavy Bolters as 'emplaced weapons' get the auto-fire rule [pg96].

Best bet is to ignore the flyers at 600pts try and weather the storm and provide enough models to capture objectives and be durable - Tervigons are the best starting point for this.

[Learn2Eel]

Anggul, please note that it's now 2x 14 Termagant Broods as i've removed the Prime upgrade from the Trygon :p

On Thursday i saw a Tyranid list that included a Flyrant with two sets of Twin-linked Devourers, one Tervigon with one unit of Termagants, Tyranid Warrior Prime with a load of Warriors, Mycetic Spore with a Pyrovore inside (which promptly got blown up in one shot) and a Tyrranofex with the big gun. It was an okay army bit seemed a bit of a mismatch.

A bit of a mismatch? Anyone who uses a Pyrovore simply isn't all there :p

[RGilbert26]

Well the guy isnt :P

Any chance we could move the other Tyranid conversation to another thread please?

[rtmaitreya]

The Quad Gun is still a 'gun emplacement' on a Bastion [just like on a Defence Line pg105] therefore it doesn't get auto-fire, only the Heavy Bolters as 'emplaced weapons' get the auto-fire rule [pg96].


Not the way the vast majority of people have interpreted it, including the authors themselves. Have a look at p. 89 for an explicit example, and further backup in p. 97 upper right to see how most people play this.

If your gaming group decides that the Quad Gun should be played like a defense line gun, that's your will and right to do so; it's your game, and your $1,000 of investment. Just don't expect to have this ruled your way in a tournament, as you are very much in the minority. It's an issue that has been discussed to death throughout the interwebs, and T.O.s do a good job of following most of the toothsome rules forums.

RTM

[daboarder]

Not the way the vast majority of people have interpreted it, including the authors themselves. Have a look at p. 89 for an explicit example, and further backup in p. 97 upper right to see how most people play this.

If your gaming group decides that the Quad Gun should be played like a defense line gun, that's your will and right to do so; it's your game, and your $1,000 of investment. Just don't expect to have this ruled your way in a tournament, as you are very much in the minority. It's an issue that has been discussed to death throughout the interwebs, and T.O.s do a good job of following most of the toothsome rules forums.

RTM


sigh!

If you don't want to play by the rules then bully for you but he is unequivocally correct, the bastions quad gun operates exactly like the aegis's one. Read the fortification entry case close.

[rtmaitreya]

sigh!

If you don't want to play by the rules then bully for you but he is unequivocally correct, the bastions quad gun operates exactly like the aegis's one. Read the fortification entry case close.

You obviously haven't been following any of the umpteen discussions about this RAW vs. RAI issue, or you'd realize that the RAW is different for the Aegis, the Bastion, and the Fortress of Redemption. The general consensus is that the Bastion follows the RAW rules of the Fortress, which is in line with the RAI rules of the two examples I quoted in the rulebook. The alternative view, which you admittedly follow, is that the Bastion (and perhaps you feel also the Fortress?) RAW should be ignored in favor of the Aegis RAW. That is a minority position which is, quite frankly, not particularly defensible.

Aegis RAW = Clear rules, likely to fit Aegis RAI, but unknown as not explicitly presented
Bastion RAW = Unclear rules, described in two RAI examples as fitting Fortress RAW
Fortress RAW = Clear rules, likely to fit Fortress RAI, but not explicitly presented

The real question you should ask yourself. . . is a Bastion more like an Aegis, or more like a Fortress? Most people say "A Bastion is more like a small Fortress, because it is a building rather than a walled area." You are free to play with your gaming group that a Bastion is more like an Aegis, although you should probably come up with why you think that should be so, so that you are not subject to cognitive dissonance.

By the way, your opinion is the way I initially believed, before I was presented with the overwhelming wall of evidence in the form of the Fortress RAW and pair of Bastion RAI examples. I have since rescinded my opinion and fall into the "Bastion is the same as a Fortress" camp. There are other alternative theories on how these rules work as well, by the way, so have fun reading about those if you care.

The end result for me is that my three GTs in the So Cal area, as well as other east coast ones (all U.S.) have ruled that a "Bastion is a Fortress". That's good enough for me to ignore any alternative theories. If you live in a region that has firmly adopted an alternative theory, "bully for you". Play by the house rules of your own house.

RTM

[daboarder]

You obviously haven't been following any of the umpteen discussions about this RAW vs. RAI issue, or you'd realize that the RAW is different for the Aegis, the Bastion, and the Fortress of Redemption. The general consensus is that the Bastion follows the RAW rules of the Fortress, which is in line with the RAI rules of the two examples I quoted in the rulebook. The alternative view, which you admittedly follow, is that the Bastion (and perhaps you feel also the Fortress?) RAW should be ignored in favor of the Aegis RAW. That is a minority position which is, quite frankly, not particularly defensible.

Aegis RAW = Clear rules, likely to fit Aegis RAI, but unknown as not explicitly presented
Bastion RAW = Unclear rules, described in two RAI examples as fitting Fortress RAW
Fortress RAW = Clear rules, likely to fit Fortress RAI, but not explicitly presented

The real question you should ask yourself. . . is a Bastion more like an Aegis, or more like a Fortress? Most people say "A Bastion is more like a small Fortress, because it is a building rather than a walled area." You are free to play with your gaming group that a Bastion is more like an Aegis, although you should probably come up with why you think that should be so, so that you are not subject to cognitive dissonance.

By the way, your opinion is the way I initially believed, before I was presented with the overwhelming wall of evidence in the form of the Fortress RAW and pair of Bastion RAI examples. I have since rescinded my opinion and fall into the "Bastion is the same as a Fortress" camp. There are other alternative theories on how these rules work as well, by the way, so have fun reading about those if you care.

The end result for me is that my three GTs in the So Cal area, as well as other east coast ones (all U.S.) have ruled that a "Bastion is a Fortress". That's good enough for me to ignore any alternative theories. If you live in a region that has firmly adopted an alternative theory, "bully for you". Play by the house rules of your own house.

RTM

I'm sorry but their is NO ambiguity in the bastions weapons, the entry tells you EXACTLY what the weapons are and by RAW they are the same as the aegis PURE AND SIMPLE.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I had fun at a tournament on Saturday trying something new with my tervigons. I was running 2 of them in this tourney, and I paid for catalyst to give them 2 powers. I then would sub both for telekinesis powers, and would use the gate of infinity with the tervigon. It was some serious lulz to just teleport a monstrous creature around the board, it was pretty funny. Nice part is is that because it is a blessing, you can cast it on the opponents turn to get your tervigon out of the firing lines. It is a 24" teleport and it was pretty awesome, did a lot of damage with my teleporting tervies. Most of my opponents thought it was pretty funny too, like they just didn't expect it nor know what to do about it. They still died eventually but it was pretty decently effective.

[RGilbert26]

Guys as i said please move the other discussion off this thread, while i was happy to begin with for Grotgrim to ask his question you've now started to derail this thread, so please move it elsewhere or stop alltogether.

[rtmaitreya]

I then would sub both for telekinesis powers, and would use the gate of infinity with the tervigon. It was some serious lulz to just teleport a monstrous creature around the board, it was pretty funny. Nice part is is that because it is a blessing, you can cast it on the opponents turn to get your tervigon out of the firing lines.

P. 68, Blessings can only be cast during the psyker's own movement phase. It then states clearly that "unless specified otherwise" lasts until the end of the following turn. If you cast it on your own unit in your own movement phase, you enter as if deep striking in at the start of your own movement phase. It's pretty clearly over at that time. I suspect removing your unit, then re-entering the battle during his movement phase isn't allowed. It is because his units enter by Deep Strike during HIS movement phase, and your units do it during YOUR movement phase.

[warboss Grotgrim Dakaskab]

Guys as i said please move the other discussion off this thread, while i was happy to begin with for Grotgrim to ask his question you've now started to derail this thread, so please move it elsewhere or stop alltogether.
Well if you dont like it then restart the thread and explain in the first post on it why. Otherwise just leave it out, they are only trying to help. Its a free forum so stop trying to make people leave. But fine if it will make you happy I will move the thread and start it s my own one, so that no arguments are caused.

[RGilbert26]

Well done for overreacting to something not aimed at you and they weren't trying to help, they were arguing over something which had nothing to do with the point of this thread.

Anyway...

[dwez]

Well done for overreacting to something not aimed at you and they weren't trying to help, they were arguing over something which had nothing to do with the point of this thread.

Anyway...

Apologies if I raised an issue regarding bastions and quad guns that went off at a tangent but given you want to move over to 'nids clearly this is a topic rife with opinion and as you originally wanted to know if they get access to any fortifications and anything else that's helpful then it's not completely irrelevant. As a nid player I was unaware of the opposing viewpoints on using quad guns on a Bastion and as auto-fire would be the only way for a Tyranid to actually use [as rtmaitreya believes] then it's an important debate. Having looked at some of the threads on other forum regarding the issue it's a hotly contested debate, and would deserve it's own thread so for that I can only apologise for my part.

[RGilbert26]

No problem, I'm more than happy for other related conversations just not heated arguements, unless I start them :P

[Emerald Rose Widow]

P. 68, Blessings can only be cast during the psyker's own movement phase. It then states clearly that "unless specified otherwise" lasts until the end of the following turn. If you cast it on your own unit in your own movement phase, you enter as if deep striking in at the start of your own movement phase. It's pretty clearly over at that time. I suspect removing your unit, then re-entering the battle during his movement phase isn't allowed. It is because his units enter by Deep Strike during HIS movement phase, and your units do it during YOUR movement phase.

Thank you for correcting me on that one you are of course correct. I never actually did it on their turn thankfully, just was suggesting it as a venue of attack, but I was in correct.

I guess the reason you still generate warp charges on your enemies turn is for things like force weapons I guess? not sure on that one.

[rtmaitreya]

In general, as I have been exposed to it, there are very few ways to use warp charges on the enemy's turn. I only have played Tyranids in V6, so I haven't delved into any of the other codices to see what can or cannot be done. As far as Tyranids are concerned, however, there is NOTHING you can do on the opponent's turn with your own warp charge. Other books might have some powers that can be used during the opponent's turn, but I just haven't faced them.

That said, we really do have good access to psychic powers. The Telekinesis-Bio pair is fantastic, and fills in several of our weaknesses. It also provides extra survivability and/or utility to brood pairs of zoanthroapes, as one can stay a blaster while the other picks up Telekinesis or Bio powers. I honestly WANT to play with Telepathy, but the armies I face are all Ld 9 and 10, and it really has no value against enemies who just ignore half of the powers. I suspect in Apocalypse games, Telepathy will be the most oft-selected (to puppeteer superheavies & titans). In normal games, it might do some good, but only if the enemy has some very strong shooting models (e.g., Necrons), and possibly against multi-flyer armies (take over enemy flyer so it has skyfire vs. another flyer).