How rediculous really is The Tallyman?

[Animus Silvanna]

Well Hello all,
So the reason I have gathered you all here is for 2 questions. 1) Does the Tallyman bestows 3+ Feel no Pain? or a 3+ save? 2) Does the kills the army racks up count from all deaths on the field for the tally? And finally 3) Does The Tallyman have to be on the table during all kills being accumulated up?

I only ask this because I got so severely whomped over the other day by a friend of mine that found and copied a list he saw online -.- He is normally a very below mediocre player but just loves the game for fun. Basically he always loses and the rules above lent him the strength to basically overrun me. Like Severely. It happens and I've been beat like that before but not by such a mediocre player. Is it my ego or are these rules infact correct and just need to get used to the fact that maybe he's come up in the world of WH40k lol


My list was as follows very time tested and works very well imho.

HQ- Saint Celestine 115 pts

HQ- Canoness Rosarius, Pwr Sword 100

TROOP- Battle Sister Squad x10 meltagun, multi-melta 145 pts
Rhino 35 pts

TROOP- Battle Sister Squad x10 meltagun, multi-melta 145 pts
Rhino 35 pts

TROOP- Battle Sister Squad x10 meltagun, multi-melta 145 pts
Rhino 35 pts

TROOP- Battle Sister Squad x10 meltagun, multi-melta 145 pts
Rhino 35 pts

FA- Seraphims x10 Hand Flamers, Inferno pistol, Eviscerator 230 pts

FA- Seraphims x10 x2Inferno pistol 215 pts

FA- Dominions x10 x4 Meltaguns, Combi-Melta 175 pts

Hvy Sppt- Exorcist Hunter-killer 145 pts

Hvy Sppt- Exorcist Hunter-killer 145 pts

Hvy Sppt- Retributor Squad x10 x4 Hvy Bolters, Pwr Sword 155 pts


My Opponents list sorry I dont have the numbers break down as I do not play evil races and this is what i saw from units.

HQ Typhus

HQ Epedimis

Troop? Plague marines x5 x2 plasma guns
Rhino

Troop? Plague marines x5 x2 plasma guns
Rhino

Troop? Plague marines x5 x2 plasma guns
Rhino

Troop? Plague marines x10 x2 plasma guns

Troop x20-30ish Zombies

Plague-bearers x 10

Plague-bearers x 10

Hvy Spprt Havocs x5 x4 Autocannons

Hvy Spprt Havocs x5 x4 Autocannons

I I think that pretty much covers it all i might have forgot one or 2 units but meh. He didnt have Epedimis on the table to start nor the other demons. Typhus with the Zombies. moved forward and shot plasma guns all day long and pretty much by mid game he had enough kills to have 3+ feel no pain so just got to re-roll any of his failed saves. Soooooo frustrating.
I teleported my Seraphims with Celstine in his back line landing exactly next to where both havoc squads where and let the other squad pop in and out of my line of vehicles to get kills and the Canones stayed with the Retributers. The mission was i forget what its called but where there is only 2 objectives my base and his.

[dreadnoughtguy]

yes he works on or off the table. The tally man buffs any nurgle units which include any chaos units upgraded with the mark of nurgle.... it is a nasty combo.

a simple counter to this is to add a small add on to your army. a good cheap one is a Dark Angles Death Wing unit. Belial and a Deathwing terminator squad with cyclone and apothicary will only run you just over 400pts and that allows you terminators with storm shields that can deep strike turn one and throw off ballance a plasma heavy army.

[Sly]

"1) Does the Tallyman bestows 3+ Feel no Pain? or a 3+ save? 2) Does the kills the army racks up count from all deaths on the field for the tally? And finally 3) Does The Tallyman have to be on the table during all kills being accumulated up?"

1: Yes, after 15 kills. After 20, all Followers of Nurgle (Demons of Nurgle plus all models with the Mark of Nurgle) ignore armor saves both with shooting and CC attacks.
2: Kills count if they are made by a Follower of Nurgle (on either side, actually). Given his list, I think all of his models are Nurgle-marked, but if he had a Predator on the table, then kills by that would not count towards the Tally.
3: Yes, the Tallyman DOES have to be on the table for kills to count towards the Tally. In addition, the Tally only gains new bonuses at the beginning of the Tallyman's turn (no killing 20 models with shooting, then gaining bonuses in the Assault phase of that turn), and only lasts as long as Epidemius is on the table.

As a side note, the 10-kill bonus is usually played wrong: all Followers of Nurgle gain Noxious Touch. Noxious Touch says that the Daemon's CC attacks are Poisoned (2+). Because of that, while a Plague Marine (or Cultist with the Mark of Nurgle) would gain Noxious Touch, they are not Daemons and thus would not actually get any benefit from it. Note that a Nurgle-marked Obliterator would both gain Noxious Touch, and the benefits from it, since it's a Daemon.

As a further side note, if he was using the Tallyman to boost his Zombies, he was playing the rules wrong. The Tally only benefits Followers of Nurgle, which means that a Cultist unit needs to be given the Mark of Nurgle to benefit from it. However, you cannot upgrade Typhus' Zombie squads in any way (other than adding bodies), and the MoN would be an upgrade. You could have Cultists that benefit from the Tally by getting the Mark of Nurgle, but then they get the "ignore armor at 20 kills" bonus and nothing else, since the Tally does not actually grant you a 3+ Feel No Pain... it just improves existing Feel No Pain to 3+. MoN Cultists have no FNP so they don't get that benefit, and Typhoid Zombies cannot get the MoN and therefore gain no benefits from the Tally.

[Nabterayl]

So the reason I have gathered you all here is for 2 questions. 1) Does the Tallyman bestows 3+ Feel no Pain or a 3+ save?
Neither. If a Nurgle unit already has FNP, it is upgraded to working on a 3+.


2) Does the kills the army racks up count from all deaths on the field for the tally?
No. The kills have to be from a Nurgle unit. As the codex says, "keep a count of all models killed by followers of Nurgle ..."


And finally 3) Does The Tallyman have to be on the table during all kills being accumulated up?
Yes. As the codex says, "Whilst Epidemius is on the table ..."

[Animus Silvanna]

@Nabterayl Thanks, atleast now I feel alot better about this as the kill score wont start till 1) shows up. and 2) marked units accumulate 15+ kills which since makes that list way more managable for the Nuns with guns. Im pretty sure my Knights would have torn them to shreds though appreciate it.

[Paulo187]

Also, don't forget that Plague Zombies do not have the Mark of Nurgle so any kills by them don't contribute to the Epidemius Tally. I have an Epidemius/Plague Marine force but I never run Epidemius and Typhus in the same army since you aren't getting the full benefit for either character when you do.

[vharing]

The tally man counts kills from models with a mark of nurgle and models that are demons of nurgle as well.

[mathhammer]

Also, don't forget that Plague Zombies do not have the Mark of Nurgle so any kills by them don't contribute to the Epidemius Tally. I have an Epidemius/Plague Marine force but I never run Epidemius and Typhus in the same army since you aren't getting the full benefit for either character when you do.

Your missing out,
1) Typhus joins a unit of plaque zombies
2) Wait for Epidemius
3) Activate the destroyer hive and get those 15 kills real quick

[Animus Silvanna]

Your missing out,
1) Typhus joins a unit of plaque zombies
2) Wait for Epidemius
3) Activate the destroyer hive and get those 15 kills real quick

That sounds a bit ridiculous. So I'm guessing the defeat of this or any variation of this list is to just kill Tallyman fast and then mop up the remains?

[Sly]

That sounds a bit ridiculous. So I'm guessing the defeat of this or any variation of this list is to just kill Tallyman fast and then mop up the remains?

That's right. Also, remember that Typhus' Destroyer Hive is "instead of attacking" (in the Assault Phase), so he must be in CC somehow. A smart list would include some fortification that he could guarantee to assault the turn that Epidemius lands, but if it doesn't, then it's a foot unit without any special movement ability... prevent it from getting to CC, and the plan is wasted.

[Animus Silvanna]

That's right. Also, remember that Typhus' Destroyer Hive is "instead of attacking" (in the Assault Phase), so he must be in CC somehow. A smart list would include some fortification that he could guarantee to assault the turn that Epidemius lands, but if it doesn't, then it's a foot unit without any special movement ability... prevent it from getting to CC, and the plan is wasted.
How very intriguing, Also Welcome Sly =D

[Niraco]

That's right. Also, remember that Typhus' Destroyer Hive is "instead of attacking" (in the Assault Phase), so he must be in CC somehow. A smart list would include some fortification that he could guarantee to assault the turn that Epidemius lands, but if it doesn't, then it's a foot unit without any special movement ability... prevent it from getting to CC, and the plan is wasted.

What fortification can you assault?

Ps.is a trick question :)

[Nabterayl]

Quad gun bought with an Aegis line.

[Animus Silvanna]

Quad gun bought with an Aegis line.
Ouch, and I believe you can still use grenades during the assault on fortifications yes?

[Learn2Eel]

Your missing out,
1) Typhus joins a unit of plaque zombies
2) Wait for Epidemius
3) Activate the destroyer hive and get those 15 kills real quick

EDIT: Sorry, thought you meant Typhus joins Plaguebearers, not Plague Zombies, doh!
Especially with the new codex, where you have Nurgle Obliterators, cheap as chips Nurgle Havocs, Bikers, Raptors and the like, you can wrack up the kills quite quickly.

[Nabterayl]

Ouch, and I believe you can still use grenades during the assault on fortifications yes?

Sure, though remember a quad gun is not a building or an MC, so the high-powered grenades don't really do anything/work.

[Animus Silvanna]

Im sticking with making a B line for Mr. Tallyman with whom ever im playing that day lol. Nevermind dealing with T5 everything else its the 3+ feel no pain that is kinda over the top for me everything else is kinda meh.....

[Nabterayl]

That is the best answer, yeah.

[Learn2Eel]

What really gets me is when all attacks, both combat and shooting, from units with the Mark of Nurgle all of a sudden ignore armour saves. All of a sudden, any Cultists with laspistols are killing Marines on 5's.

[Tynskel]

I am pretty sure that zombies do not have the mark of nurgle.

[Niraco]

Quad gun bought with an Aegis line.

As i said is a trick question. Read the charge rules in rulebook. You cannot charge the quad gun even if is manned by the enemy. The charge steps require to pick one enemy unit (page 20 rulebook). As the quad qun is neither a unit or enemyyou cannot pick it so you cannot charge it.

What is debateble is if you can in movement to move in btb and in assault phase to hit it in close combat.

[Nabterayl]

As i said is a trick question. Read the charge rules in rulebook. You cannot charge the quad gun even if is manned by the enemy. The charge steps require to pick one enemy unit (page 20 rulebook). As the quad qun is neither a unit or enemyyou cannot pick it so you cannot charge it.
If "enemy unit" in this context meant a unit owned by your opponent, then you could not assault a dilapidated building occupied by an enemy unit, either, but that is surely not your read of the rules? Surely "enemy unit" for target acquisition purposes means "a discrete group of models not owned by the attacking player." Otherwise the building rules would tell us that you cannot assault a building at all, instead of only telling us that you cannot assault an unoccupied building.

[White Tiger88]

I love watching people take this type of list.......They are so cocky and happy they think the game is in the bag from "cheese" Then they figure out mas Bolter or Lasgun fire tends to make there whole army's great save useless...(Pass 20 saves Plz on each guy) Or....Just shoot Eppy in the face with 15 Lascannons! (Done this player got mad and gave up on turn 3)

[Niraco]

If "enemy unit" in this context meant a unit owned by your opponent, then you could not assault a dilapidated building occupied by an enemy unit, either, but that is surely not your read of the rules? Surely "enemy unit" for target acquisition purposes means "a discrete group of models not owned by the attacking player." Otherwise the building rules would tell us that you cannot assault a building at all, instead of only telling us that you cannot assault an unoccupied building.

Assaulting a building is a special rule (or advanced as GW specified in their rulebook) which trumps the standard rule of assaulting. As that an occupied building can be charged as an exception from the regular rule. And it does not apply because quad gun is a terrain piece called gun emplacement found in battlefield debris section. It has special rules of usage (meaning can be a model weapon when shot with) and special rule that say can be shot or "hit in close combat". While being shot is above from the rules point to the page 12 rules ("can be shot" is a whole phase while hit in close combat is not a reference to the whole phase of assaulting but a clear reference of the assault sub-phase called Fight sub-phase - blame sloppy writing of GW), you cannot do the charge sub-phase. That only means from my point of view that you will simply walk in BtB and hit it in the assault phase, fight sub-phase as allowed by the gun emplacement advanced rule.

Rest is just as you arrange with your opponent (if you feel is not right for you as this is still a hobby game and meant to be fun) but you have to be prepared to accept the RAW rules when asked by a more conservative player,

What you say "means" is simply your rule as intended interpretation which some other players could not accept.

have a good day :)

[Animus Silvanna]

I love watching people take this type of list.......They are so cocky and happy they think the game is in the bag from "cheese" Then they figure out mas Bolter or Lasgun fire tends to make there whole army's great save useless...(Pass 20 saves Plz on each guy) Or....Just shoot Eppy in the face with 15 Lascannons! (Done this player got mad and gave up on turn 3)
Thats not what happened at all for me lol. It was ME " ok you have 13 armor saves and 4 invul saves on your plague marines" Opponent " Oh ok" rolls dice *insert dice noises here* Opponent " Oh i failed 6 armor saves and 3 cover saves, now i get to pick all those back up and try again on a 3 plus" Dice rolls agian. Opponent "Oh look i made all my feel no pains" Me -.-

That pretty much happened all game. But now that i know the rules better this cant happen again atleast it shouldnt

[sfshilo]

I love watching people take this type of list.......They are so cocky and happy they think the game is in the bag from "cheese" Then they figure out mas Bolter or Lasgun fire tends to make there whole army's great save useless...(Pass 20 saves Plz on each guy) Or....Just shoot Eppy in the face with 15 Lascannons! (Done this player got mad and gave up on turn 3)

Because every epi list centers around him?
Where this list gets nasty is when epi is not the entire center of the universe.
Your opponent won because he used the model incorrectly.

An epi centered list can work but it's best to bubble wrap him in 20 plague bearers or 7 beasts of nurgle.

[Lord Krungharr]

You'd have to assault your own quad gun if you wanted to do that in Turn 1. But if an opponent is silly enough to assault that Typhus/Zombie unit then unleash that Hive! But the benefits of the Tally do not start until the beginning of the Nurgle list's following turn. They are not immediate in effect (unfortunately).

[Lord Krungharr]

I usually keep Epidemius with 10 Plaguebearers in the backfield away from anything, and in cover. If an enemy drops in, by that time they're getting Noxious Touch and 3+ FNP, so I go ahead and try to assault the enemy, but not always.
A strong firebase, typically on a Skyshield Landing Pad, of Havocs and Obliterators rack up the Tally wounds quickly. Cultists are cheap enough that I don't care if they're Fearless or not, most enemies aren't trying to kill them first anyway. Then when the time comes they move up and ignore armor saves en masse!
But generally I prefer to take Plague Marines, as they benefit the most from the Tally of Pestilence all around since they can shoot, and a have FNP, and a bolt pistol/poison knife for extra attacks in close combat.
Even if Epidemius doesn't show up until Turn 4, which has happened to me twice!, that Nurgle army is still a formidable opponent. So for a nominal fee of 260 points you can potentially buff your entire army, and gain a strong additional deepstriking scoring unit. So for now I give the Epidemius army a solid 4 1/2 stars out of 5, until the new Daemons Codex comes out in which they'll probably nerf the whole damn thing.