Shooting From Cover... Into Cover?

[ElectricPaladin]

This came up in a recent game of Cities of Death. We couldn't find a ruling, so I turn to you, oh BoLS.

When two models are both in cover, shooting at each other, do they still get a cover save? In 5th edition, you could ignore up to two inches of cover you were in, but we couldn't find any reference to a similar rule in 6th.

Thanks in advance.

[-Tom-]

I would assume yes - there seems to be a lot of stuff in the rules and FAQs in examples, or aside comments, mentioning cover saves in a way that seems to want to give them out very generously. For example, cover saves being allowed against psychic attacks where they are LoS and a cover save being intended to represent a model ducking out of LoS at a pertinent time.

I would imagine that in the scenario you're describing, one might imagine two opposing models leaning around trees, or rocks, etc to fire off shots at each other. As such, they're both going to be behind cover relative to each other as well as relative to other things. I suppose this may depend on the exact cover type though - if it is area terrain, where they could each have a tree of their own in a forest for example, or whether it is a singular bit of terrain and they are both stood on the same side of it (in which case, I guess they would both lose their cover save relative to each other)?

[alshrive]

can i request a slight piece of clarification. are they both in the same piece of cover or are they in seperate pieces?

[ElectricPaladin]

can i request a slight piece of clarification. are they both in the same piece of cover or are they in seperate pieces?

Thank you, that's an important point. The point is that they are in the same cover.

[Nabterayl]

Doesn't matter. In 6e, if they are both in cover for any reason, they both get their cover saves. The reason you can't find any exceptions to the rule is because there isn't one :P

[ElectricPaladin]

Doesn't matter. In 6e, if they are both in cover for any reason, they both get their cover saves. The reason you can't find any exceptions to the rule is because there isn't one :P

I still think it's kind of a weird rule... but there you have it.

[Tynskel]

I am not sure why this is weird.
Haven't you seen Police Squad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr2GeWiDrdY

[Aspire to Glory]

Makes sense to me. If two enemy units are in the same building, they all have to stand in clear lines of sight to one another?

[thelion]

hmmm i dont know cus i could see that in a building but what a bout a trench or just a fallen tree? i would say if we are on the same side of the fallen tree then you would not get a cover save against my attacks nore should you get cover saves from attacks that are in the same trench that you are in but you can not always apply game mechanics to real life or vice versa

[Nabterayl]

There are situations where it is weird, but remember that there are two situations here:

Both shooters are in the same piece of area terrain. Area terrain rules assume that there is all sorts of available cover that isn't modeled, so who's to say that both shooters don't have cover?
Both shooters are obscured by the same piece of visible terrain. How weird this is depends on what that piece of terrain is. If it's a tree with a diameter of a few millimeters, yeah, that's pretty weird. If it's a boulder the size of a Rhino, much less weird.
Some weird situations, but overall, I think the rule is sensible.

[Mystery.Shadow]

Ever play Paintball? Or Airsoft? Or Laser Tag?!

Even if you are two feet from your opponent, you will try your hardest to put something, anything, between you and your opponent! (See the Naked Gun link above)

If our plastic dudesmen were real, they wouldn't be as static as they are represented on the table!

[Dorsai]

sounds to me like this is something that would have to either be house ruled, or worked out with you and your opponent. You would have to discuss what type of cover it was and how it might affect the availability of cover for the soldiers.

[thelion]

Ever play Paintball? Or Airsoft? Or Laser Tag?!

Even if you are two feet from your opponent, you will try your hardest to put something, anything, between you and your opponent! (See the Naked Gun link above)

If our plastic dudesmen were real, they wouldn't be as static as they are represented on the table!

trust me friend i undersand what you are saying (1 tour in afgan and 1 tour in iraq and im infantry) im just saying that there are sits where i dont agree with the way the rule is written but i do concede the point

[Kyban]

The next question is how does giving cover by firing through area terrain work when they're not in area terrain? It says they get cover if you fire "through" area terrain but what does that mean? It sounds like if you're in the terrain and they're not they don't get cover but it seems kind of silly if you can sit on the opposite side of 10" of area terrain and not give them cover. I liked the 5th rule of 2" but there isn't anything of the kind in 6th unless it would be firing through the vertical elements of area terrain that counts as 'through'...

[Caitsidhe]

I believe true line of sight always applies. Shooting over a bit of area terrain doesn't (I don't believe) confer anything unless the normal percentage of LOS is blocked per the rules.

[Kyban]

I believe true line of sight always applies. Shooting over a bit of area terrain doesn't (I don't believe) confer anything unless the normal percentage of LOS is blocked per the rules.

But say your in a forest and you're shooting at someone in the open, if you're at the back of the forest shooting through 9" of area terrain do they get cover? If you're shooting between a couple trees does that confer cover? What counts as shooting 'through' area terrain?

[Nabterayl]

What counts as shooting 'through' area terrain?
Nothing at all. There is no rule about shooting through area terrain. You only need to ask (i) is the target in area terrain, and (ii) is the target actually obscured by 25%? You can shoot through five million inches of area terrain at a target just outside the border, and as long as you have a clear line of sight (and you have a five million inch range) the target receives no cover save.

[Kyban]

Nothing at all. There is no rule about shooting through area terrain. You only need to ask (i) is the target in area terrain, and (ii) is the target actually obscured by 25%? You can shoot through five million inches of area terrain at a target just outside the border, and as long as you have a clear line of sight (and you have a five million inch range) the target receives no cover save.

It might just have been forests not all area terrain, there is a rule about shooting 'through' it that we had a problem with at our LGS.

[Nabterayl]

Was it recent? There used to be rules about shooting through area terrain; no more. There is a rule about shooting through units - if model A is shooting at model B and tracing line of sight through unit C, then B receives a 5+ cover save even if C does not obscure the target. See 18 (emphasis mine):


If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

[Kyban]

Was it recent? There used to be rules about shooting through area terrain; no more. There is a rule about shooting through units - if model A is shooting at model B and tracing line of sight through unit C, then B receives a 5+ cover save even if C does not obscure the target. See 18 (emphasis mine):]

Pretty sure it's under the forest rules (don't have my book) in the terrain section. Sorry for the confusion.

[Nabterayl]

Ah, you are correct. Good memory. From page 102:


Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest) then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save.

So area terrain in general does not provide a cover save for being shot through. Forests specifically, which are a type of area terrain among other things, do. Thanks for the correction!