1850 Word Bearers - Can't get a list I like, help!!!

[MrGraveRisen]

So far this is the list I'm happiest with.

The list is word bearers, focused mostly on khorne. I want to make the defiler the main centerpiece of the army, I'm going to build up a huge chaos shrine fueling the battle cannon rather than the top half of the defiler and make the bottom half more like a crab. Then I want to have magnetized chains that I can attach to have the maulerfiends chained up to it like giant hell hounds. If nothing else it'll make an intimidating show piece

HQ

Lord -155
-Bike, Axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption, MoK

TROOPS

10x Chaos Marines -213
-2 plasma, power weapon (sword), Veterans, CCW

10x chaos marines -213
-2 plasma, power weapon (sword), Veterans, CCW

10 cultists -50

10 cultists -50

ELITE

5 terminators -227
-3 fists, 2 chainfists, 4 combi melta, heavy flamer, MoK

FAST

7x bikers -236
-MoK, veterans, 2 melta, power fist, icon of wrath

Heldrake -170

HEAVY

Maulerfiend -125

Defiler -195

5 Havoks -115
-4 autocannons

FORTIFICATIONS

* Aegis defense line with quad gun -100

[Caitsidhe]

Well for starters, if you are going to run with that many Daemon Engines, you really should be considering a Warpsmith HQ. It goes with your fluff too, since you want a Daemon Engine as the centerpiece. I also think you have a bit of an identity crisis. Who is actually going to be doing the close combat? The combat weapons are wasted (as are the points) unless a unit is going to make it to close combat. I think you will get taken apart in detail.

[MrGraveRisen]

Well for starters, if you are going to run with that many Daemon Engines, you really should be considering a Warpsmith HQ. It goes with your fluff too, since you want a Daemon Engine as the centerpiece. I also think you have a bit of an identity crisis. Who is actually going to be doing the close combat? The combat weapons are wasted (as are the points) unless a unit is going to make it to close combat. I think you will get taken apart in detail.

I'm just used to playing space wolves, so it feels really weird and vulnerable not having combat weapons on my marines. And in my experience, marine squads ALWAYS end up in combat at some point in the game.

Warpsmith is a good idea for sure. I'm just not sure how he's going to keep up with the maulers, moving 12 with fleet and ignoring terrain. Sure he can hang out with the defiler but that feels like a huge waste, or at least a poor investment for the cost.

I might drop one of the maulerfiends and the spawn in favor of a raptor squad and another terminator

[Caitsidhe]

I'm just used to playing space wolves, so it feels really weird and vulnerable not having combat weapons on my marines. And in my experience, marine squads ALWAYS end up in combat at some point in the game.

I don't find that to be the case in 6th Edition. You will be lucky to get one unit into close combat in a reliable way. You might as well tool one unit for that purpose and focus the others on shooting. The gun is now king.


Warpsmith is a good idea for sure. I'm just not sure how he's going to keep up with the maulers, moving 12 with fleet and ignoring terrain. Sure he can hang out with the defiler but that feels like a huge waste, or at least a poor investment for the cost.

He probably won't keep up. I was going to suggest that he doesn't need to keep up. Keep him in the backfield with the Defiler keeping up a hot fire with the Battle Cannon. Take the Dirge Caster off the Defiler and load it out for shooting. They rarely make it to combat these days. The are better used as a cannon and to discourage anyone from trying to assault your backfield weak units (like said Cultists).


I might drop one of the maulerfiends and the spawn in favor of a raptor squad and another terminator

I can endorse Raptors. If you go that route, do them up right tricked out to the nines. Go with fifteen too. They are your assault unit. Strip the others down to solid shooting units.

[MrGraveRisen]

Came up with 2 new lists...


Hq:

Lord -150
-MoK
-axe of blind fury
-terminator armor


Troops:

10 marines -215
-2 plasma
-combat weapons
-veterans
-power weapon

10 marines -215
-2 plasma
-combat weapons
-veterans
-power weapon

8 berserkers -176
-veterans
-power fist

15 Cultists -85
-autoguns

15 Cultists -85
-autoguns


Eite:

5 terminators -237
-mok
-3 fist
-2 chainfist
-h.flamer
-4 combi-melta


Fast:

heldrake -170
-baleflamer


Heavy:

7 havoks -154
-4 autocannons

maulerfiend -125

Defiler -205
-havok launcher
-dirge caster



Hq:

Lord -150
-MoK
-axe of blind fury
-jump pack
-signet of corrpution


Troops:

10 marines -195
-2 plasma
-veterans
-power weapon

10 marines -195
-2 plasma
-veterans
-power weapon

8 berserkers -176
-veterans
-power fist

15 Cultists -85
-autoguns

15 Cultists -85
-autoguns


Fast:

12 Raptors -273
-MoK
-2 melta
-power fist
-icon of wrath

heldrake -170
-baleflamer


Heavy:

6 havoks -141
-4 autocannons

maulerfiend -125

Defiler -200
-havok launcher

In both of these I can drop the berserkers for another marine squad, or something else that will suit my purposes. Maybe a small bike squad

[ElectricPaladin]

I'd like to second that close combat is not a given in 6th. I mean, I put power weapons my sergeants, but that's 1) only 15 points and 2) on the sergeant, who is usually the last to die unless I screw up.

[Learn2Eel]

I would keep the Terminators as-is, I assume you are deep striking them? If so, you don't want to have a very large foot-print in case they scatter. Keep them as they are, maybe even drop a body or two.
For the Chaos Lord, whether you put him in Terminator Armour or play him as a Raptor Lord is up to you. Just be aware your Raptors will draw some firepower.
Frankly I would drop the combat weapons and the power weapons on your Chaos Marine squads, you can save a lot of points that way. I find they are unnecessary, though by all means keep the power weapons if you want.

Be careful with running Chaos Marines on foot, whilst it does depend on your meta, sometimes being in an AV11 vehicle can make the unit a lot more survivable until they get to a good range to start unloading their firepower. That is a call for you to make based on whether you think it is necessary or not though.
A Defiler is a good choice but as Caitsidhe points out, you do not want it near combat as it is simply too expensive a vehicle to throw into the fray like that. Use it as a mobile fire-base and you should be fine.
An option that has been discussed is dropping the Chaos Lord in exchange for a Warpsmith - he doesn't really need any upgrades, just throw him next to the Defiler in either a bodyguard or one of the Cultist units and he will be fine. In particular against Necrons, your Defiler will make them cry.

I also like that you aren't spamming the units considered to be the most competitive, your list has quite a bit of variety. However, yes, I wouldn't take Berzerkers - especially if they don't have a transport. They may not be able to charge when they jump out of a Rhino anymore, but it reduces the turns they will be shot at.

[MrGraveRisen]

in working with the second list:

8 berserkers -176
-veterans
-power fist

transforms into.........

6 chaos bikers -203
-mok
-veterans
-2x flamer
-power fist
-icon of wrath

raptors go down to 10, lord goes on a bike.

[Caitsidhe]

I want to start by saying I would NOT build the following list as it doesn't fit my personal style. I am not very fond of vehicles in this edition. However, in the spirit of being helpful, I wanted to try and stick to idiom you are trying to do and give you what I think "can" be competitive in some formats:

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line w/Auto-Cannon (100pts)

HQ:
Warpsmith w/Gift of Mutation (120pts)
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor w/Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, VTLW, and Gift of Mutation "Warlord" (190pts)

Troops:
20 Chaos Cultists w/Flamer and four Auto-Guns... just to use up the 4 excess points (99pts)
12 CSM w/2x Plasma Gun and Champion has Gift of Mutation, Powerfist, and Combi-Melta (253pts)

Fast Attack:
10 Raptors w/2x Meltagun, MOK, VTLW, Icon of Rage and Champion has 2x Lighting Claws (285pts)
Helldrake w/Balefire 170pts

Elite:
5 Terminators MOK, VTLW, Champion w/Gift of Mutation 2 Chain fists, Heavy Flamer, 4 Combi-Melta (256pts)

Heavy:
Maulerfiend w/Lasher Tendrils (135pts)
Defiler w/Twin-Linked Lascannon, 2 Havoc Launchers, Dirge Caster, Warpflame (242pts)

The tactics are fairly straightforward. Your Warpsmith will join the Cultists and be manning the Quad Gun behind the Aegis. The Defiler will kick back there with him firing all the appropriate weapons every turn. You should always roll on the CSM Warlord traits and if you should get Infiltrate you will place your Warlord WITH the Raptors infiltrated as far forward in as much cover and blocked LOS as possible. Put the Terminator Lord toward the direction the most fire can come from and he can tank a lot of the shots further protecting the Raptors. Try to go second as this will allow you to assault on the 1st Turn even though you infiltrated. Your Warlord walks away from them and back to meet the CSM unit moving up to meet him. They will support him and he will tank for them. They are shooting and he provides the close combat. You do whatever you want with the Maulerfiend (likely rushing into combat) and the Helldrake when it shows up.

If you don't get to infiltrate you do something similar but cannot guarantee that 1st Turn hit and provide as much possible tanking to the Raptors. The list has a ton of Gift of Mutations because they are worth it. Get Shrouded for ANY unit and you are in clover for it (it is heaven to get it for the Raptors as you jump from ruin to ruin). None of them suck. The Terminators are a toolchest so you use them as needed.

[MrGraveRisen]

Updated the list in the first post

[Angelofblades]

HQ

Lord -155
-Bike, Axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption, MoK

TROOPS

10x Chaos Marines -213
-2 plasma, power weapon (sword), Veterans, CCW

10x chaos marines -213
-2 plasma, power weapon (sword), Veterans, CCW

10 cultists -50

10 cultists -50

ELITE

5 terminators -227
-3 fists, 2 chainfists, 4 combi melta, heavy flamer, MoK

FAST

7x bikers -236
-MoK, veterans, 2 melta, power fist, icon of wrath

Heldrake -170

HEAVY

Maulerfiend -125

Defiler -195

5 Havoks -115
-4 autocannons

FORTIFICATIONS

* Aegis defense line with quad gun -100

The terminators feel out of place in the list. I would drop them and add autoguns to the cultists so that you can stick them in the Aegis defense line. Maybe add in a heavy stubber into the unit.

I've found the Lash Tendrils on the Maulerfied to be very very useful. Keeps that puppy alive and gives it great chances against other units that would otherwise tear it apart in CC, like quite a few tyranid MC's or those Necron Lords w/ Warscythes. I've had one kill a trygon over 2 rounds of cc, simply because that trygon was decreased in attacks.

I also haven't found VotLW to be very useful.

Since you're lacking Dirge Casters, I would suggest swapping out the remaining points from the terminators for a unit of 2-3 Nurgle Spawns. That way you have a cheap'ish unit that can keep up with the bikers that can take those overwatch shots for them when you charge in.

Personally, still not sold on the Defiler, I'd much rather have a Demolisher cannon.

[MrGraveRisen]

The terminators feel out of place in the list. I would drop them and add autoguns to the cultists so that you can stick them in the Aegis defense line. Maybe add in a heavy stubber into the unit.

I've found the Lash Tendrils on the Maulerfied to be very very useful. Keeps that puppy alive and gives it great chances against other units that would otherwise tear it apart in CC, like quite a few tyranid MC's or those Necron Lords w/ Warscythes. I've had one kill a trygon over 2 rounds of cc, simply because that trygon was decreased in attacks.

I also haven't found VotLW to be very useful.

Since you're lacking Dirge Casters, I would suggest swapping out the remaining points from the terminators for a unit of 2-3 Nurgle Spawns. That way you have a cheap'ish unit that can keep up with the bikers that can take those overwatch shots for them when you charge in.

Personally, still not sold on the Defiler, I'd much rather have a Demolisher cannon.

I'm experimenting on and off with the tendrils. Some games they're amazing, others it feels like he's unnecessarily weak for paying an extra 10 points. Depends what they have in their army. But purely for the MC problem I might do tendrils

Termies are ideally going to deep strike in as the mauler and bikes are making it to combat, giving them 2 very nasty threats to worry about. If they really suck for me I might swap them for raptors.

VotLW should be extremely useful as 60% of the books it's in effect against, AND you're at +1ld.

NO on the nurglings. If I did that it would be for spawn. Zero nurgle for me. period. end of story. ESPECIALLY when I would be mixing marks. that's just no bueno

I've always been of the opinion that vindicators suck, and defilers are also FAR more versatile.