Let's Wishlist: Fixing the Space Marine Captain

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm saddened by the fact that the Space Marine captain is such a blah choice as warlord. Sure, he's a beast in melee, and he's got a better than average BS, which can be nice if you bother to give him a better than average ranged weapon. Compared to the benefits of the support HQs, though, like the chaplain's melee rerolls or the librarian's powers, or the FOC changes and conversion beamer potentially brought along by a Master of the Forge, however, he's pretty pale.

In theory, if GW bothered to listen to us, what could we do to make the captain a tastier option?

I have a couple of thoughts, but I'm eager to hear yours:

1) Tactical Options

What if the captain generally gave you interesting tactical options? The scope of something like Mounted Assault could be expanded so that whatever type of unit the captain is, that unit is Troops. Terminator captains lead to Troops terminators, for example.

If that's too powerful - or steps on the schtick of the Dark Angels too much - you could always say that the captain and whatever unit he joins count as scoring. This is a more minor benefit, but I can see how it might add significant tactical flexibility.

2) New Systems

What if the captain had some special system to represent his tactical acumen? Something akin to the Imperial Guard's Order system, but with benefits that focus on the Astartes preferred methods of combat.

Alternately, a wider variety of upgrades granting interesting USRs to the captain and his unit could be neat, too.

Anyway, what do you think could theoretically be done to fix the much-maligned Space Marine captain?

[RGilbert26]

Buying Terminator Armour should not remove the ability to buy a Relic Blade.

[Aspire to Glory]

I'd love seeing an option to influence an army's tactics with an upgrade on the captain, similar to the Marks for Chaos (i.e. certain elites as troops) without needing to field a unique character. There has to be a reason to take him, as OP said. Just being pretty good in combat isn't enough.


Buying Terminator should not remove the ability to buy a Relic Blade.

Agreed 100%

[Charistoph]

... or the FOC changes...

...


1) Tactical Options

What if the captain generally gave you interesting tactical options? The scope of something like Mounted Assault could be expanded so that whatever type of unit the captain is, that unit is Troops. Terminator captains lead to Troops terminators, for example.

If that's too powerful - or steps on the schtick of the Dark Angels too much - you could always say that the captain and whatever unit he joins count as scoring. This is a more minor benefit, but I can see how it might add significant tactical flexibility...

You mean like if he's on a Bike then Space Marine Bike squads become Troops?

...like he already does?

But yeah, it would be a good idea to expand on this concept. Why they didn't expand on this for at least Assault Marines, I'll never know (aside from leaving that to the BA Whitedex at the time). There are several different types of Companies, and they should have allowed for that.

[Lexington]

Honestly, I never understood why they got rid of Rites of Battle (or, at least, plopped it exclusively on Sicarius), which seemed like a great defining Marine Captain ability.

Alternatively, they could give him the Chapter Master's Orbital Barrage, and pop Rites on the Chapter Master, where it might be more logical.

Like the idea of making one unit type scoring and/or Troops, as well, tho I'd hate to see it restricted by equipment.

[Anggul]

They could just give them Rites of Battle back. That alone would make them seen more often.

For those who don't know what it was, Rites of Battle is a special rule that Captains used to have which granted their Leadership value to the entire army.


Captains are still pretty good in my opinion, especially with the ability to have 2+ armour for so cheap. The return of Rites of Battle would make them a more solid choice though, that and making Relic Blades AP2. I don't play Space Marines of any kind but I think it's pretty daft that their prized relic weapons aren't AP2.

Oh, and they need to make Chapter Masters better than Captains. Even if it's just +1 Weapon Skill and Attack. As it is, no-one would ever pay 25pts more just for an Orbital Bombardment that you have to stay still to use and the ability to take a super-expensive Honour Guard with no invulnerable saves.

[Animus Silvanna]

they need to make Chapter Masters better than Captains. Even if it's just +1 Weapon Skill and Attack. As it is, no-one would ever pay 25pts more just for an Orbital Bombardment that you have to stay still to use and the ability to take a super-expensive Honour Guard with no invulnerable saves.

No joke and to caveat to that you cant even make them a full 10 man squad. What the hell is that about? I dont like that WH40k is making a violent turn back to Hero Hammer 6th ed. Maybe they could make it like the old school 4th ed marines codex? where you could create your own chapter by using set traits and you mixed and matched them. With minor drawbacks or major drawback depending on which ones you chose. I think you got to pick like 2-3 traits and that determined on what minor/major drawback you got.

Personally i would just love to see him get to take any equipment he wants in the armory and have an honor guard that can do the exact same more or less. Like all jump packs or something. * I also like the relic blade being ap 2*

[Houghten]

Oh, and they need to make Chapter Masters better than Captains. Even if it's just +1 Weapon Skill and Attack. As it is, no-one would ever pay 25pts more just for an Orbital Bombardment that you have to stay still to use and the ability to take a super-expensive Honour Guard with no invulnerable saves.

Speak for yourself - I generally don't bother with the Honour Guard but 25pts for a "fire and forget" first-turn high-strength splatter is fine by me.

[fuzzbuket]

make them better at shooting. why does my IF captain have to be a silly CC person.

allow them to take heavy weapons. give them bonuses to whatever squad they join (tacs become fearless+ LD10, assaults get +1A, ect)

allow termi captains more options (id like a termi captain with GL, typhoon launcher and multi melta thankyou very much)

and let people buy stat upgrades? like either +1A for 10pts OR +2BS for 15pts

[DarkLink]

If Honor Guard were actually any good. But really, just give the Chapter Master a rule similar to The Grand Strategy. That, combined with Rites of Battle, more flexible wargear options, and the ability to unlock Bikes and Terminators as troops by taking a Bike or Terminator Armor, would make both the Captain and Chapter Master a competitive choice.

[OrksOrksOrks]

make them better at shooting. why does my IF captain have to be a silly CC person.

allow them to take heavy weapons. give them bonuses to whatever squad they join (tacs become fearless+ LD10, assaults get +1A, ect)

allow termi captains more options (id like a termi captain with GL, typhoon launcher and multi melta thankyou very much)

and let people buy stat upgrades? like either +1A for 10pts OR +2BS for 15pts


So you want to pay 15pts to have a captain, who you think can have a heavy weapon, to have BS 7? Fearless AND Leadership 10?

[ElectricPaladin]

So you want to pay 15pts to have a captain, who you think can have a heavy weapon, to have BS 7? Fearless AND Leadership 10?

I agree that that's probably too much, but to be entirely fair, there are Dark Eldar characters with WS 7.

[Xenith]

If you look at the other special character captains, they all have some ability that represents what they are good at.

Increase the points a bit, then give abilities, or have abilities that can be purchased like a C'Tan.

Captain of the First: One unit of Terminators is scoring
Captains of 2-7: Bolter Drill.
Captain of the 8th: One unit of ASM is scoring.
Captain of the 9th: One unit of Devs is scoring

Alternatively, a captain may choose his warlord trait.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I agree that that's probably too much, but to be entirely fair, there are Dark Eldar characters with WS 7.

BS 7 is fine, but combined with a heavy weapon it just has far too much of an effect to be balanced is all. Plus, its not the fluffy image you get with Space Marines at all.

[Learn2Eel]

Well, Chaos Lords are good because they are cheap and have awesome options. Captains should be different (more expensive but with different abilities) but follow a similar principle. As it is, the best combat one I can see in general is a TH/SS one, but it just doesn't work because for not much more you can get Lysander who is oh so much better.

[Mr Mystery]

It's possible the first Heresy book is demonstrating the studios current thinking in this regard

You buy a Legion Praetor, and the upgrade him. Said upgrades include to Librarian and Chaplain, plus several more.

[Learn2Eel]

That sounds good to me.

[Charistoph]

Chapter Masters should have the Chapter Tactics, while the Captains should have the Company Organization.

Of course, that would work better if you could take some of the other HQ options on the side...

[DarkLink]

BS 7 is fine, but combined with a heavy weapon it just has far too much of an effect to be balanced is all. Plus, its not the fluffy image you get with Space Marines at all.

WTF? BS 7 is worse than Twin Linked BS4, which is really common in heavy weapons. And since you'll end up paying like 200pts for a single heavy weapon, albeit one that's decent in close combat (though not great if the gun precludes some assault options), it's hardly unbalanced.

[thelion]

i don't know about just giving them terms as troops. (im a da player so i don't like that idea) but what i would like to see is the ability to give chapter masters and captains an extra wound, we can give them extra attacks and better saves but we cant give them and extra wound or even eternal warrior some wargear that did that for you would be a huge improvement imho

[ElectricPaladin]

i don't know about just giving them terms as troops. (im a da player so i don't like that idea) but what i would like to see is the ability to give chapter masters and captains an extra wound, we can give them extra attacks and better saves but we cant give them and extra wound or even eternal warrior some wargear that did that for you would be a huge improvement imho

I understand your reticence, but I think that making the captains personally badasser is not going to solve the problem. The problem is that they don't add enough to the army. What's the point of a single powerful character when you can spend those points on something that boosts his squad? Librarians and chaplains are force-multipliers. That makes them infinitely more useful than captains.

So, what are we going to do? Add more wounds, give them a higher BS, give them better weapons? I just don't see anything like that helping. If the captain is going to be useful, he needs to either multiply force or add options.

[White Tiger88]

Captains in all honesty are exactly what they are sightly more skilled spacemarine's with better gear. IF you are a Senior captain though (Which they should have) then i can see 3 wounds and WS\BS 5

[thelion]

i have to agree with your post here, and i am not saying that the CPT and the CM should have options to change the army (although i still dont like putting one in term armour making terms troops) the option that i realy liked and i don't know what edition it was in giving the CPT and the CM options that allow you to triad combat tactics for a diff USR (like stubborn or slow and purposeful) would be cool, i am saying that i would like to see both the ability to pay for some better gear that changes the IC along with the option to use him to change the army.

[White Tiger88]

i have to agree with your post here, and i am not saying that the CPT and the CM should have options to change the army (although i still dont like putting one in term armour making terms troops) the option that i realy liked and i don't know what edition it was in giving the CPT and the CM options that allow you to triad combat tactics for a diff USR (like stubborn or slow and purposeful) would be cool, i am saying that i would like to see both the ability to pay for some better gear that changes the IC along with the option to use him to change the army.

If you want Hq's to change loyalist armies you will have to play a heresy Era Legion force to be honest.

[thelion]

i know that. and it is kind of sad. but this is a wish list so i was just making a wish

[Charistoph]

If you want Hq's to change loyalist armies you will have to play a heresy Era Legion force to be honest.

No, you don't.

Admittedly, currently the Space Marine Captain and Master of the Forge are the only generic HQs that provide for army changes, all the rest require Unique HQs.