Dad! Dad! I'm over here!!

[dark messenger]

Just a quick question my friend asked me yesterday which has bugged the heck out of me. I wasn't able to answer very well and I too wish to know the answer now!

I know the Legio numbers (I through to XX) were given to the Astartes Legions in the order the Emperor created their genetic data...
What I don't know is in what order the Emperor found the Primarchs?

I believe Horus was first.
I'm pretty certain Alpharius/Omegon was the last (not know how/where the meeting went down, I'm assuming the Emperor knew about them being twins?)
Looking at it I can also speculate that Dorn, despite being on Terra, was found after Jonson and Sanguinius...?

This is making my face hurt from frowning.

Can anyone help clear this up?

[FireHazard]

Hmm... this one really got me wondering too. Thanks for in advance for my eventual mental collapse ;)

I've had a mooch round and the only things I've been able to work out is that, indeed, Horus was first and Alpharius was last.

Dorn was the seventh.

The Emperor had Magnus with him when he found Lorgar.

Extremely unhelpful, I know. Still, I had always assumed they were discovered in Legion order (The Lion first, etc). I'm sure the Fists are the seventh, but the Luna Wolves were not the first Legion. Very confusing.

Must research more!

[Absolon]

Dorn wasn't found on Terra. As the Imperial fleet approached Inuit, he took Phalanx out and met them.

[Vlad78]

I think that in "Flight of the Eisenstein" it is written that the number of each legion comes from the order of discovery of the primarchs, Alpharius and the alpha legion being he XXth because he was the latest rediscovered.


Motarion is talking about protocole and primarchs being found before being able to disembark from their fleet earlier.
But it could be a mistake from my part confusing the order of creation of the legions and the order of discovery.


EDIT
It is a confusion from my part.
Here's a site with a list of all current knowledge on the matter.
http://baddice.co.uk/primarch-discovery-order/

[FireHazard]

Ok, you got me. I got really got hung up on this and haven't left it alone for bloody days!

I did A LOT of research. I ended up doing spreadsheets. How sad is that? No, I don't have a life :( Even the other half thinks I love the Primarchs more than her.

Anyways, using the HH books, a number of similar discussions from other forums (Heresy Online in particular was very helpful) and the same blog Vlad posted, I came up with the following.

1. Horus
2. Sanguinius
3. Ferrus
4. Vulkan
5. Fulgrim
6. II
7. Dorn
8. Russ
9. XI
10. Magnus
11. Guilliman
12. Khan
13. Corax
14. Perturabo
15. Angron
16. Lorgar
17. Johnson
18. Mortarion
19. Kurze
20. Alpharius/Omegon

The back 11 were relatively straightforward to work out, despite some contradictory information. I've REALLY had to speculate with the first 9 however. I've had to go with best estimates based on available information.

This list is, therefore, by no means accurate and if anyone wishes to point out where and why I'm wrong, please feel free :) I'd now LOVE to know the answer to this conundrum.

[Pendragon38]

Dark angles were first in the old RT book then Dorn and Russ, thats all I have. if this helps. hell, since they reworked the fluff it can all be wrong in someones eyes.
Perry

[dark messenger]

Thank you all for your help on this because I have not come much closer to finding out the true order myself.

Pendragon38: I too had also read somewhere that the DA were the first Legion found, which is why I was getting confused about this. In the HH books it does look like Horus was first.

FireHazard: You have been a great help here (sorry about the mental torment though). That list is the closest anyone has come to providing an answer that is understandable. My own list was similar but I had made some horrible errors.
I had Vulkan where you have Mortarion and Mortarion where the II Primarch was! Some kinda f*ck up on my part....

Until I find information that supercedes this, I will posit this as a "Win" and let my friend know :D

[Kyban]

Pendragon38: I too had also read somewhere that the DA were the first Legion found, which is why I was getting confused about this. In the HH books it does look like Horus was first.

Did it say first legion or first primarch discovered? The DA were the first legion created (they were created in order) then their primarchs were discovered out of order.

[dark messenger]

Yeah, sorry. First Primarch found... Just looking through the HH books it feels like Horus was the first found. I will look through the books again but I think there's a discussion between Primarchs says something like "He (Horus) has spent the longest amount of time with our father..."

Until very recently though I've always thought that Jonson was the first Primarch found. Something to do with Caliban being fairly close to Terra.

[Just_Me]

The Legion numerical designations do not appear to represent the order in which the Primarch were found, but rather the order in which the Emperor began culturing their geneseed from his remaining Primarch data. From "First Heretic" it seems that he began this process with the Dark Angels before the Primarchs even disappeared. Similarly the 20th Legion was still in the relatively early stages of formation when they were reunited with Alpharius/Omagon in the later part of the Crusade and it is suggested that this is why the twin Primarchs so thoroughly molded the legion in their image. Some Legions suffered setbacks, such as the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children, which meant that they took longer to build up to strength then later Legions.

As for the order of the Primarchs re-discovery that is a bit hazy, though I think FireHazard's list is probably an accurate one. Forge World's "Betrayal" also suggests that Horus was found early, and some even place his rediscovery on Terra itself (though personally I suspect that isn't very likely). We can say based on several references in "Horus Rising" and "False Gods" as well as "Betrayal" that he was found early enough that he spent part of his youth raised by the Emperor, hardly difficult to reconcile as starmaps show Cthonia as very near Terra. We know for a fact that Alpherius/Omagon were the last to be found but the order in between gets murky and contradictory. There is a strong implication in the short story "Death of a Silversmith" that Ferrus Manus was rediscovered early enough to participate in suppressing several rebellious Terran states shortly after the Reunification. I'm not sure of specifics but my impression has always been that Dorn was also very early. As has been mentioned already Magnus was present when Lorgar was rediscovered and based on "Prince of Crows" Lorgar, Dorn, and Flugrim were all present when Kurze was rediscovered. Perturabo was discovered before Angron because Kharn was already familiar with him by the time he met Angron. The only Primarch for whom we have a clear count in years is actually Mortarion who according to "Betrayal" was discovered about 80 years after the Crusade set out from the Sol system.

It should be noted that, due to the temporal vagaries of Warp travel it is very difficult to set a definitive time frame and even though the Emperor was present at the discovery of almost all of his sons some of the Primarchs might have been rediscovered almost simultaneously from the perspective of an outside observer.

[Wildcard]

What about the "missing" primarchs? Were all brothers present when they were " originally removed"? Or were some just new aquintances for the Imperium or did some of them learn only afterwards of their brothers fate? Also at what point of time frame were they disposed of?

[dark messenger]

It looks like the "older" Primarch brothers were present for the sanction of the first Missing Primarch because we know that Russ and his Wolves were used to behead that Legion. Much speculation abounds as to if they were then absorbed by the XIII...
I have no idea about the second Missing Primarch though, as the whole timeline of when the Emperor's boys were discovered starts getting really murky.... but I would say that when the Emperor gathered his sons on Terra before the huge push into the Crusade proper (a family reunion?) both of the Missing had been dealt with, mourned and then the whole affair hushed up on daddy's direct orders ;)

I can only give my opinion on the matter as I don't know where to find any accurate sources to draw from. Sorry about that.

[Just_Me]

I can only give my opinion on the matter as I don't know where to find any accurate sources to draw from. Sorry about that.

Because there simply ARE NO "accurate sources" on this matter. It remains an enduring and tantalizing mystery. What gets me about the whole thing is a subtle point, what could the nature of their "tragedies" (to use Dorn's term) have been? They must have been severe enough to warrant obliteration from history and yet whatever happened it still didn't prepare the Primarchs for the the idea of betrayal by their own during the Heresy. Whatever happened it must have been a complicated situation. More intriguingly perhaps is the fact that there is very real reason to believe that they are both still alive. They are referred to as "absent" and "beyond reach" rather than "dead."

Anyway, I apologize for side tracking. I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion of this particular mystery...

[dark messenger]

Actually you raise a good point there Just_Me...

With the whole secrecy thing with the Missing Primarchs and the fact that there is no credible record of when exactly the Primarchs were found... this whole thing seems to be a giant rat-f*ck... but isn't that (among other things) what makes the history of 40K so enticing?

I know there are people who play other factions and favour them over the Imperials but almost every race in the 40K universe is linked or tied to one another directly in some fashion.
Except Tyranids. They're just plain crazy. :p

Whatever faction you support you'd have to admit that the Emperor and his Primarchs were some of the most powerful and influential beings ever to stride the galaxy. Rumours keep flying of them still being alive or having done certain things since their "disappearance" from public sight.

The Eldar know what has befallen their gods right?
The Orks stomp planets in the name of theirs because they know they are real!
Even the Necrons have enslaved/eaten theirs...?
So why is it just the humans who don't know what has happened to their god and his demi-god sons?