Heldrake weapon hull or pintle mounted?

[JMichael]

As the title asks. Do you consider the Heldrake's weapon to be hull mounted or pintle mounted?
Big difference in the LoS of the 2 mounting types.

[Learn2Eel]

As the title asks. Do you consider the Heldrake's weapon to be hull mounted or pintle mounted?
Big difference in the LoS of the 2 mounting types.

Hull mounted.

[pauljc]

That this even needs to be considered makes Baby 40k Jeebus cry. ;)

[Learn2Eel]

I don't even know the difference lol, I just go by what I see - the head is quite clearly part of the main body, the weapon is hardly something I would think is mounted like a storm bolter on a rhino.

[Wildcard]

Yeah, problem with this is that the long neck of the drake seems to be highly mobile, and there are pictures that suggest (i know its visual and as such has nothing to do with rules) that the weapon could turn atleast 90 degrees to both sides from the center point..

[Learn2Eel]

Oh, is it do with the arc of fire? Well I just play a 90 degree (or was it 45?) angle from the weapon itself, just like weapons on other vehicles that are in a fixed position. Usually its movement speed and the Torrent rule mean I don't need to bother anyway.

[Moros]

its irrelevant anyway, since torrent weapons are effectively 360 firing arch. The rules say you have to place the narrow end of the template within 12"... case closed

[Caitsidhe]

Depends on how you convert it. :)

[Animus Silvanna]

its irrelevant anyway, since torrent weapons are effectively 360 firing arch. The rules say you have to place the narrow end of the template within 12"... case closed
Yes Torrent does say that. However, the rules for LOS clearly state that if the weapon or model can NOT draw line of sight to you cant wound anything with it. Its just like shooting any other weapon in 40k. A good example would be shooting into a building with only 3 models visible to your squad and or helldrake. You could only ever kill those 3 models no matter if you had 50 wounds on them made.

[JMichael]

its irrelevant anyway, since torrent weapons are effectively 360 firing arch. The rules say you have to place the narrow end of the template within 12"... case closed

Narrow end still has to be placed within LoS and the fire arc of the weapon.
Hull mounted weapons have a 45deg arc both horizontal and vertical (p72).
The neck doesn't look like it could swivel too much.

[Wildcard]

What about model firing flamer + / - 1 levels into the ruins. A space marine with a flamer firing a squad of cultists most likely has no line of sight to the cultists its firing, yet it can place the template over them.

Is this just a special case that adds the exception to the rule, or is it outdated info on my part, or will it cause x wounds (that has to be allocated to that floor) and can still kill zero enemies?

[Animus Silvanna]

I'm certain that you can place the template however you wish to get the most amount of wounds possible. For instance there is 6 cultist on the bottom floor and 10 on the floor above. So in this case you would elect to use the template on the second level possibly inflicting 10 wounds on them, which the 6 that you can see will have to either die for or take saving throws. i think page 8 explains very well on the LOS rule. People also abuse it by "sniping" certain characters or special weapons by deliberately blocking what their models can see so they can ONLY kill a certain model.

[JMichael]

Where does it state you can hit models out of LoS with a template? I know the FAQ allowed this for Blast Markers and it kind of makes sense. The ruins example on p101 is perhaps a poor reference as the Space Marines seem to be able to actually see all of the Orks on the 2nd level.

[Nabterayl]

Where does it state you can hit models out of LoS with a template?
It doesn't, that I know of.

[JMichael]

It doesn't, that I know of.

That's what I believe too. So if that is the case, then if you cover models out of LoS with a template weapon (of course 1 model has to be in LoS), then those models aren't actually hit. So if they are behind terrain, behind a vehicle, or on that higher level of a Ruin and out of LoS then the can't be hit and thus don't generate hits/wounds.

So with a hull mounted template weapon with torrent (like the Heldrake) then the template could be adjusted, but can only hit (not just wound) models within that 45deg fire arc.

This is how I read it.
If you disagree, please give rulebook/FAQ reference and page #'s!

[Angelofblades]

So i guess a follow up question would be...

If you converted the Heldrake so that you could articulate the head and neck, would this be a cause for concern?

[JMichael]

So i guess a follow up question would be...

If you converted the Heldrake so that you could articulate the head and neck, would this be a cause for concern?

Yes it would. You cannot covert a model to have any advantage over the stock model (like adding longer barrels or a turret).
If the weapon is hull mounted, then it's hull mounted regardless of the conversion.

[Angelofblades]

And that's really the contention; "IF" it is hull mounted.

Most if not all hull mounted weapons are pretty obviously hull mounted. IE Heavy bolter on a Leman Russ, or Demolisher cannon on a Vindicator. They have clearly limited movement even if you didn't glue them on.

When putting together the Heldrake, the head is mounted on a ball joint. This allows the owner to even angle it in any way they choose.

Additionally, prior to the current CSM codex, only 1 vehicle I know of existed with a "head," and a hull mounted weapon. The Defiler.

On the Defiler you quite clearly see where it's Head is and where it's Hull Mounted Battle cannon lies. Using that as an example, the weapon on a Heldrake is quite clearly not mounted on it's Hull.

So why does one assume it's Hull Mounted?

My opinion is that it defies current conventional classification. It's not a turret, neither is it hull mounted, which in this case we refer to page 72 of the rulebook:


On some models, it will actually, be impossible to literally
move the gun and point it towards the target because of the
way the model is assembled or because the gun has been
glued in place. In this case, players should assume that
the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings

[Nabterayl]

Remember that "hull," "sponson," and "turret" are all just convenient short-hands. Nothing in the rules says that those three are the only ways to mount a weapon. The actual rule is just, "trace line of sight from each weapon's rnounting and along its barrel" and "assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings." The question isn't what the Heldrake's head mount is called, but what the model can actually do.

[Angelofblades]

True, but what can the head actually do isn't stated. Labeling it as "Hull" mounted limits what the weapon can do and is an inconvenience to the owning player, especially since, it may not actually fall under the "Hull Mounted" category. The rulebook categorizes how LoS works as turret, pintle, hull and sponson, even then there are 2 different sponson LoS arcs.

So where does the Heldrake's weapon fall under? I don't see it falling under anyone of those, the only recourse I found was that quote from the rulebook.

Like I said, on assembly, the Heldrake head & weapon mounting can be pivoted in any allowed direction prior to gluing it. What happens if someone were to magnetize it? I can see that happening, especially if an enterprising player wishes the be able to swap out heads for the weapons.

Even in the picture in the codex in the unit description, page 52 of the codex, it shows the drake bending it's neck to fire at it's target.

Now I'm not saying I know what it is, or how it's supposed to move. What I am saying, is that to categorize it as "Hull mounted," is not right, it's anything but.

[Nabterayl]

Like I said, on assembly, the Heldrake head & weapon mounting can be pivoted in any allowed direction prior to gluing it.
Well, that is what the head can do. I think the standard is that anything a weapon can do without conversion of any kind is the baseline for "what the model can do," and anything beyond that falls under the category of "modeling for advantage," if you have an opponent who cares about such things. Magnetizing so you don't have to glue the head in place is within the model's "normal" range - no different than keeping your Leman Russ sponsons unglued so you can pivot them. Magnetizing the head for extra flexibility isn't really any different from doing a chop job on your Leman Russ sponsons so they have a 200 degree field of fire instead of 90.

[Animus Silvanna]

Even in the picture in the codex in the unit description, page 52 of the codex, it shows the drake bending it's neck to fire at it's target.

Now I'm not saying I know what it is, or how it's supposed to move. What I am saying, is that to categorize it as "Hull mounted," is not right, it's anything but.
Yeah and in the Grey Knights Codex pretty much any picture of purifiers has Castellan Crowe attached to the unit, But that doesnt change what his rules actually mean. I think this is very clearly a hull mounted weapon. Just cause you can model something to do something doesnt mean you get to change the rules of the model.

Also sorry for the miss information earlier i miss read something in the LOS rule lol.

[Nabterayl]

Just cause you can model something to do something doesnt mean you get to change the rules of the model.

As I understand it this isn't a question of "what you can model something to do;" it's a question of what the model, out of the box, is made to do. If the neck pivots without any conversion whatsoever, and is only stopped from pivoting because people routinely glue it in place, then the weapon's arc of sight is what the unglued, unconverted, assembled-out-of-the-box neck can do.

[Animus Silvanna]

As I understand it this isn't a question of "what you can model something to do;" it's a question of what the model, out of the box, is made to do. If the neck pivots without any conversion whatsoever, and is only stopped from pivoting because people routinely glue it in place, then the weapon's arc of sight is what the unglued, unconverted, assembled-out-of-the-box neck can do.
Point taken there. However, im sure thats just so you can make the poses very dynamic and to the modelers desire. I think this might add something of a solution. Take a solemn Ironclad for example. He can pivot on the spot and has pretty much a 360 degree way of shooting but once he has stopped moving thats his facing. He also comes out of the box able to be out in any direction facing you wish. But you give him 2 hunter killers and those are mounted almost "pintle" like so would those also get to fire in whatever direction they want?

[Lord Krungharr]

While the Heldrake rules do not say how the Baleflamer is mounted, I suppose you could argue that it's hull-mounted. However, it can Vector Strike like a flying MC, so then shouldn't it be able to fire all around like a flying MC then? Given the torrent rule, it's more techno-organic construction, and that I play Chaos, I think it should be able to fire 360, just like the Necron Death Ray.
Furthermore, hullmounted weapons are usually mounted upon a hull which is typically a block, not on long thing sticking out from the block. So since the Heldrake is up on a flying base, couldn't one just point the head down and achieve a great firing arc somehow that way? I can visualize, if not calculate, the angles such that the firing arc would be more than the usual straight-out-from-the-hull arc, although that may limit the actual range of the Baleflamer.
So for the potentially ridiculous reasons of the latter paragraph, it should be treated as the Death Ray, all around, or at least 180 degrees to reflect the ability of a dragon turning its head.

[Nabterayl]

Point taken there. However, im sure thats just so you can make the poses very dynamic and to the modelers desire. I think this might add something of a solution. Take a solemn Ironclad for example. He can pivot on the spot and has pretty much a 360 degree way of shooting but once he has stopped moving thats his facing. He also comes out of the box able to be out in any direction facing you wish. But you give him 2 hunter killers and those are mounted almost "pintle" like so would those also get to fire in whatever direction they want?
Well, no. In the case of walkers, we're explicitly told to "assume that weapons mounted on a Walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45'" (BRB 84).

It's worth noting that in 6e weapons do not have to be hull, pintle, sponson, or turret-mounted. If they are explicitly called out as such, that serves as guidance for what the arc of sight is. If not, then we stick with the basic rule that the weapon can point to what the weapon can point to after we assemble the kit but before we glue it. 6e does this in a few other places (for instance, there are the various classifications of psyker powers, but a power doesn't have to be a blessing, malediction, or witchfire).

[Animus Silvanna]

It's worth noting that in 6e weapons do not have to be hull, pintle, sponson, or turret-mounted. If they are explicitly called out as such, that serves as guidance for what the arc of sight is. If not, then we stick with the basic rule that the weapon can point to what the weapon can point to after we assemble the kit but before we glue it. 6e does this in a few other places (for instance, there are the various classifications of psyker powers, but a power doesn't have to be a blessing, malediction, or witchfire).
Interesting, Intersting. Well ok maybe the walker was a poor choice lol what about a chimera with a hunter killer or rhino? its assumed to be fired from the top of the hull right?

[Nabterayl]

Interesting, Intersting. Well ok maybe the walker was a poor choice lol what about a chimera with a hunter killer or rhino? its assumed to be fired from the top of the hull right?
Well, it's assumed to be fired from the hunter-killer missile, which is a bit on the model. What an HK can see depends on how it's modeled. Stick it on the turret of a Chimera and it's turret mounted. Otherwise it isn't :P

[Houghten]

Well, no. In the case of walkers, we're explicitly told to "assume that weapons mounted on a Walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45'" (BRB 84).

We're also explicitly told that walkers can pivot in the Shooting phase, which isn't covered under any other vehicle type or under Shooting With Vehicles.

[Animus Silvanna]

Well, it's assumed to be fired from the hunter-killer missile, which is a bit on the model. What an HK can see depends on how it's modeled. Stick it on the turret of a Chimera and it's turret mounted. Otherwise it isn't :P
Lol well ok. I'm still not sold on the Heldrake's bale cannon not being hull mounted though or at the very least having to shoot 180 degrees only to the front. I guess if it come up in a game it will come down to the almighty dice roll of who is correct.