The Over-rated threat thread!

[Mr Mystery]

Hello, good afternoon, and welcome to another thread from the foetid mire that passes for my mind.

This week, I'd like to discuss units you consider to be wildly overrated. Now this could be a unit in your own army which despite having it's praises sung, and looking dead sexy on paper, is in fact about as hard as mashed potato whenever you field it. Or perhaps it's your opponent wonder unit, the one you had always feared until you discovered tackling it is about as tricky as taking on a five year old, with both it's hands tied behind it's back.

For me? Lychguard with Warscythes. Yep. They hit like a tonne of bricks. And are about as speedy as a tonne of bricks as well, even when deployed by Nightscythe. They turn up, they deploy, they shake their fist in impotent rage as my opponent just sort of....walks away calmly. This does have it's uses of course tactically...but 300 points a pop uses (including the Scythe, which typically goes on to be much more of a threat!) I'm not so sure. As for defending my troops? Far rather splash the points on more Immortals and Warriors!

Now for one that I don't get to play with, and in fact just plain don't get...The Land Raider. It's big. It's incredibly well armoured! It's got some guns! It carries troops! It's a target of priority which to be honest isn't all that hard to put down... Yep. Never really understood the Landraider post 3rd Ed. It's got an odd mix of weapons, and unless you pay for the expensive tank, and then buy an expensive squad to go inside it, I'm yet to see one genuinely pull it's weight in an army. Pretty much every time I've seen one deployed, by the second turn it's a burned out husk, and it's transportees are grumbling once again about having to walk. Redeemer pattern as well. Sure the flamestorm cannons are nasty...but you really, honestly think I'm going to let it anywhere near me? Not if I can help it! Crusader? Yeah ok they scare me a lot! Trouble is with the other patterns, once you've made it worth while (LR, and pokey squad of pokey hitty killy doom doom) it's eaten up a lot of your points. And in eating up a lot of your points, and being such a big, obvious target....you're not generally left with a lot else to take advantage of me focussing my fire on the big target. Far better in my opinion to shell out for Rhinos and Predators, who share the duties whilst being a lot, lot cheaper and more numerous.

But how about you? Is there a unit out there that is generally well thought of that you use think 'not all that and a bag of potato chips'?

[Wolfshade]

I think for me it is either a tooled up death company, which can rage round a board out of range of everything so that can be a bit of damp squib.
But I think possibly a tripped out Nob squad.

I think in both of these cases the issue here is that if you are not careful both of these units can become very expensive. The trick therefore being between limiting these units which can be absolute beasts with their costs.

[Mr Mystery]

I think for me it is either a tooled up death company, which can rage round a board out of range of everything so that can be a bit of damp squib.
But I think possibly a tripped out Nob squad.

I think in both of these cases the issue here is that if you are not careful both of these units can become very expensive. The trick therefore being between limiting these units which can be absolute beasts with their costs.

I guess there other limitation is that they tend to do their work only in combat. Depending on who and what you're fighting that could be a major drawback. After all, even with Jump Packs, you're looking at what, reliably 8 rounds of HTH with the enemy (assuming two turns to get into range, assault on the 3rd. Could probably be done quicker though. But not with Nobz). And if your opponent is cunning, he will let you wail over the most rubbish troops and units he has to offer. Like 10 man Guard squads. Boy, you really showed that 50 points of my army what for! (might be more, run with me on this!). If he can rinse and repeat that every turn, with no more consolidating or sweeping into combat, said expensive squad has just been highly effectively points managed for the entire game.

[Wolfshade]

Oh exactly, with the DC, 30pts base then you think I know I want to assault quickly so you grab jump packs, you are now 45pt per model and this is before pweapons/fists/hammers. Then with rage you can end up charging round the board always out of combat, they need some delievery system but then again that adds to the cost of the unit.

[Mr Mystery]

I thought Rage had been changed to something useful? Like +2 attacks on the charge?

[Learn2Eel]

Kind of hard for me because I don't pay that much attention to the 'meta' as far as 6h Edition goes, I just know generally what works for a lot of people but not really the most competitive stuff. As such, I don't really know what would be over-rated by the wider community.

As for units I've taken which tend to have good ratings, I find Draigo, Paladins and Grey Knight Terminators really aren't as great as they are made out to be. Mind you, that is during 6th and not 5th.

Actually this is a really hard question for me to answer lol, I've never really found units that I've fielded to be well below my expectations. However, on the whole I find Grey Knights as a codex are vastly over-rated, they are hardly over-powered in 6th Edition I find.

As for units other players field that I think they over-rate, I definitely agree on the above assessment of Death Company. They are far too expensive for what they do IMO. I see a couple of Blood Angels players run them in big squads and I just shake my head. I tend to find that my opponents seriously over-estimate the threat of two Vindicators as well. Usually, they don't kill that much even when they are allowed to shoot. The really deadly things in my Chaos army aren't obvious.

I'll have to play some games with my Tyranids (hopefully by January or February) and see how players react to them. I'll provide an interesting test for people in my LGS who really aren't accustomed to dealing with Tyranids; shoot the two Tervigons, or shoot the Trygon, or shoot the Harpy, or shoot the Swarmlord? The answer will probably be interesting, though my wager is on the Trygon or Harpy at first. At least, that is until people realize I won't feasibly lose objectives games until the two Tervigons are dead. And of course, that is until people realize that the Swarmlord eats pretty much every other deathstar unit in the game for breakfast.

Will be fun, no doubt. I can provide some more answers for "over-rated' in a few months time :D

[Psychosplodge]

Daemon Princes, the twice I pitched my tau against them I had a battlesuit rip his wings off and beat him to death with them, and the second time I killed it in the first turn of shooting...

[Wolfshade]

I thought Rage had been changed to something useful? Like +2 attacks on the charge?

Oh yeah they got rid of the charging the nearest unit thingy didn't they..+2 on the charge

[Daemonette666]

For myself, now that 6th edition and the new codex is out, it has to be the Noise Marine squad, tooled, as best they can, now their options are a lot more limiting.

They were a lot more versatile back in the previous codex, even when using either 5th or 6th edition 40K rules. they could be used as objective holders, and objective takers. They were fearless, and when they needed to take LD tests, they had LD 10 base. You could get them with noise weapon upgrades, and additional close combat weapon.

Now, when you tool them up to their maximum, with sonic weapons, VOTLW, Icon of Excess, etc, they are useful for only one purpose. Sit on an objective and try and hold it. Too many of the games I have played with the new 6th edition codex have ended up with my noise marines killed with Daemon Flamer units killing almost an entire squad on the first turn, Space Marines Landraiders or Grey Knights taking them out with Str 6 AP3 Flamers, or Terminators with either power fists or thunder hammers taking the squad out, ignoring their Tgh 4 FNP from 30 point icon.

I tried to set them up carefully away from the enemy with other more expendable units in front, or enough terrain surrounding them to deter daemons from deep striking too closely, but to no avail. Too many accurate deep striking rolls from my local daemons player, too many space marine opponents who bring their mighty land raider crusader up filled with a close combat squad with attached chaplain in terminator armour (I can not kill the damn land raiders, or by the time I do, the enemy is too close). Even when utilising my full compliment of high strength and low AP heavy support units, I have had the worst run of luck with some of the armies I have faced.

One opponent often uses 2 devastators squads in his raven guard army, one is almost completely Plasma cannon armed, the other has 2 lascannon backed by missile launchers. He has been using a whirlwind, fliers as well as a defensive line setup. He outnumbers me in long range weaponry and forces me to either take more punishment, before moving a couple fast moving units in the last turn to remove me from an objective, or deny/take an objective. He sometimes uses Terminators as well.

I have not found a counter to the tactics many of the space marine opponents and the daemon opponents when playing with a themed Noise Marine/ Slaanesh army. The loss of lash of Submission which ended up working only 1 chance in 3 by the time the new codex came out, severely hampered my fighting style. I have tried to re develop, and mix it up adding in cultist (enmasse) trying standard Chaos Marine, or Bikers of Slaanesh with icons of Ecstasy, but nothing has worked out so far. The new codex, has forced me (as did the old 4th edition codex) to mix Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Khorne together to forma a complex non themed army.

If the noise Marines were still able to get additional ccw, and sonic blaster that was assault 2/heavy 3, they would be more flexible. Even without an icon of ecstasy. This makes my unit, which still costs 20 points or more per model and looks really good on paper, a very under performing unit that is not worth taking. Now a days I would rather take an entire unit of terminators with thunder hammer and storm shield than a full tooled up Noise Marine unit - If CSM were ever allowed to take them.

[BatMarine]

Have you tried attaching a sorcerer with Biomancy to them? There's a pretty decent chance to get relentless for them at that point, which addresses all of the issues of their weapon type, not to mention means you don't need to take the Icon (30 points off the cost of the sorcerer) and adds some wargear options via the armory. Seems like a good force multiplier for them, and my friend said that he had quite a bit of success with them anyhow.

[DarkLink]

Land Raiders have been overpriced since 4th edition. Particularly true in 5th. In 6th, with fewer meltaguns floating around in favor of plasma, Land Raiders are actually better than in 5th despite Hull Points and generally reduced move-disembark-assault ranges, but they should still be closer to 200pts than 250+. Especially since you could just take a Storm Raven instead and take advantage of the stupid flyer rules.

Terminators in general are overrated. Shooty ones are too expensive for too little firepower and too little durability, and THSS Terminators are great until you realize you have to somehow make it into assault. Even Grey Knight Terminators, with Psycannons, Psybolts, Brotherhood Banners, Warding Staves, Scoring, and so on, are a specialist unit that really only has a place in certain types of lists. Paladins are a much better choice generally.

There are so many little things that I could go on about here. Why's the Personal Teleporter on a Dreadknight so expensive, even moreso than an actual upgrade to a FMC in other codices? Why are Walkers so terrible? Only Rifleman/Psyrifle and Blood Talon Dreads have ever actually been good since 4th, all other variants are pretty much mediocre at best.

[wittdooley]

Heh, CC Terminators are really 450 Points: 200 for the squad and 250 for their transport :D

[Red Brigade]

For most overrated unit, I'd have to go with the Baron and his Hellion buddies. I have a small Dark Eldar army and two friends who play Dark Eldar, so I've used him and played against him, and have yet to see him to anything even remotely useful. Hellions too. He either gets shot to death or squashed in CC. Sure he seems decent for taking out squads of squishier infantry like Guard, but anything more seems to mow him down. I'll admit though, he is a really good price...
If it was still 5th I would have said the Storm Raven though. Never seen it do anything but get shot down in a turn. I imagine the flyer rules have made it way more survivable now at least.

[DarkLink]

Heh, CC Terminators are really 450 Points: 200 for the squad and 250 for their transport :D


That's the thing. How do you actually get THSS Terminators into assault? A lot, on the board, will get shot to death via weight of fire, and a few in a Land Raider is very expensive to be only good in assault with no real shooting.

On the other hand, I think the litmus test for any expensive deathstar unit, from Paladins to the Swarmlord, is their ability to deal with THSS Terminators. Paladins can do it because it takes 10 THSS Terminators to win combat and the Paladins can just shoot them to death if they're outside a Land Raider (or even if they're inside one, usually), while the Swarmlord can't, generally. If your big expensive killy unit can't deal THSS Terminators (taking shooting into account), your unit is too expensive and not killy enough. Similarly, if you can't kill an adequate number of, say, Orks, or maybe Cultists, or similar tarpit units, you suffer the same problem.

[Mr Mystery]

As an aside, does anyone feel this is a sign for or against balance within the game? Being an entirely subjective matter, I'm just looking for comments on experience.

And as I'm half way through 'Know No Fear' (again!) it could be fun to run this as theoretical/practical type comments.

So, to use my earlier example of Lychguard with Warscythes...

Theoretical: a very tough unit. They can win most combats. There is little they are not a threat to. They have access to one of the best transport units in the game. They provide serious CC potential to an otherwise mid-ranged firepower army.

Practical: due to high points cost, and general slow pace, an opponent can, with a little care prevent them engaging high value targets. They have no ranged capability. Once dropped off, they are largely on their own. Whilst they are tough, a single round of concentrated firepower can remove the unit.

[Slacker]

but they should still be closer to 200pts than 250+. Especially since you could just take a Storm Raven instead and take advantage of the stupid flyer rules.

But everyone already has landraiders, and fliers are new, so of course they'd be better so GW can sell them lots! :p

[Nabterayl]

Practical: due to ... general slow pace
I've never played the new necrons, so I'm curious: is there something I'm missing that makes them slower than normal? Or is it just that they're as fast (or slow) as assault terminators, but don't have access to assault vehicles unless they carjack a Ghost Ark?

[Mr Mystery]

Can't go in a Ghost Ark! Only Warriors and characters.

They are no faster than standard infantry, so if your opponent has the option (not always possible if you're cunning) then he can simply wander off, leaving them with nothing to chin!

[Denzark]

I'm not too worried about Lychguard. Because no Necron player has points for them with 1 gazillion fliers in their lists, and the nob biker 'allies'.

The reason why LRs were dying quickly? becuase everyone took melta. Why? Because of AV14. It is the king of threats that threatened itself out of the business. The main point of LR became to ensure assault - you could choose to charge at convenience. I am having a LR renaissance by using it as a long range pill box. Sit on objective with MoN CSM in. Kill the AV 14 firing TL warfire gargoyle lascannons. Then kill the T5 squad. Then you can have the objective it sits on. I have won Relic repeatedly by stuffing it in LR and running away 6" per phase.

[godsvendetta777]

Hmm, for me I'd have to say that the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes are overrated. I've played them either in one squad of nine or two squads of 6 depending on mood, slot availability and points(they really compete with swoop- I mean scourges). regardless of presentation, they always do one thing, run over MAYBE one unit and then get vaporized. players who have played them, don't let them last to do anything and those who haven't, figure it out quick. like I said, scourges really compete for the slot with their haywire blasters and reavers just don't kill enough tanks or infantry for their points for me to want them over scourges.

[DarkLink]

Then you can have the objective it sits on. I have won Relic repeatedly by stuffing it in LR and running away 6" per phase.

Thought you couldn't embark the relic in a vehicle. Good to know.

[ElectricPaladin]

You can't embark the relic in a vehicle.

Not true. You can, but the vehicle is slowed to 6''. Check again.

[Learn2Eel]

That's the thing. How do you actually get THSS Terminators into assault? A lot, on the board, will get shot to death via weight of fire, and a few in a Land Raider is very expensive to be only good in assault with no real shooting.

On the other hand, I think the litmus test for any expensive deathstar unit, from Paladins to the Swarmlord, is their ability to deal with THSS Terminators. Paladins can do it because it takes 10 THSS Terminators to win combat and the Paladins can just shoot them to death if they're outside a Land Raider (or even if they're inside one, usually), while the Swarmlord can't, generally. If your big expensive killy unit can't deal THSS Terminators (taking shooting into account), your unit is too expensive and not killy enough. Similarly, if you can't kill an adequate number of, say, Orks, or maybe Cultists, or similar tarpit units, you suffer the same problem.

Funnily enough though, if you run the Swarmlord with four biomancy powers into Paladins, it won't end well for the Grey Knights most of the time.
At least, that is assuming he gets into combat. If he is doing the whole "Iron Arm plus one Tyrant Guard for majority toughness" gimmick then yeah, it would be hard shooting him down.
Mind you though, how expensive are those deathstars compared to each other? The Swarmstar example above is 355 if the Tyrant Guard has a bonesword, the 10 TH/SS Terminators are 400, and the 10 Paladins are 555 base before any upgrades.
IMO if the Swarmlord rolls Iron Arm and Warp Speed and is able to get into combat, it is game over for whatever is fighting him - unless of course you have Space Wolf or Eldar allies to block his powers.

I actually remember reading up about how some poor fellow ran 10 Nobz into the Swarmlord. It really did not end well for him. I guess to beat a deathstar you have to have the right tools - i.e. to take down those TH/SS Terminators, just shoot them with massed anti-infantry firepower. With the 10 Paladins, hit them with things like Vindicators or Ectoplasm Cannons. With the Swarmlord, mass shoot him with things like krak missiles and lascannons.

[wittdooley]

Caestus Assault Rams full of terminators is way overrated. Especially when it gets blown out of the sky killing everyone inside.

[Learn2Eel]

I've never seen that done actually. If I had an Assault Ram I would probably put a cheap scoring unit in it so that my opponent doesn't see it as an obvious priority target.

[bfmusashi]

Nemesis Dreadknights. Like a lot of things, just not a big deal to the Guard.

[ElectricPaladin]

I've never seen that done actually. If I had an Assault Ram I would probably put a cheap scoring unit in it so that my opponent doesn't see it as an obvious priority target.

I've thought of using land raiders the same way. A godhammer, maybe a crusader, full of tacs.

[Aspire to Glory]

I've thought of using land raiders the same way. A godhammer, maybe a crusader, full of tacs.

Lulz. A squad of tacs, all starry eyed at seeing the inside of a Landraider, much less riding it into battle. It will be hard moving around in there with all of the raging boners.