1850 Emperor's Children - All comer list

[Angelofblades]

Just trying an all comers list here:

Chaos Lord: 170
Bike, MoS, Sigil of Corruption, 2 x lightning claws, melta bombs, gift of Chaos

8 Noise Marines: 247
7 Sonic Blasters, Champ w/ Doom Siren, combi-plasma, Single Lightning Claw
Rhino
Dirge Casters

10 Chaos Marines: 235
2 x Plasma guns, Champ w/ Single Lightning Claw, combi Melta
Rhino
Dirge Casters

5 Havocs: 135
2 Autocannons, 2 Lascannons

5 Havocs: 135
2 Autocannons, 2 Lascannons

Maulerfiend: 135
Lash tendrils

Heldrake: 170
Baleflamer

7 Chaos Bikers: 221
2 x Plasma guns (mounted on bikes), Mark of Slaanes, Icon of Excess, Veterans of the Long War
Champ w/ Power Axe, Gift of Chaos

IG Allies:

CCS: 65
Grenade Launcher, Autocannon

PCS: 45
Grenade Launcher, Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 65
Grenade Launcher, Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 65
Grenade Launcher, Autocannon

Demolisher: 165
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter

It's pretty self explanatory.

Thoughts?

[Caitsidhe]

Like myself, you are going with IG allies. I'll have to digest this list and come up with my thoughts tonight.

[Anggul]

1st rule of Noise Marines: Keep your Sonic Blasters and your Doom Sirens separate.

The Sonic Blasters make the squad a scary stationary fire base, whereas the Doom Siren Lightning Claw Champion makes them want to be a mobile close-up squad. Either go for a full squad of Sonic Weapons and leave the Champion bare as he won't be doing much other than firing his Bolter (you could give him a Combi-Bolter or something if you have 3pts spare), or trade out their Bolters for CCWs, give the Champion a Doom Siren and Lightning Claw, stick them in a Rhino and use them as a close-up squad to Doom Siren and kill things in assault with lots of I5 attacks.

Basically have Sonic Blasters in a Rhino is just wasting them, so if you mix the shooting and combat options you're either be moving and losing out on the shooting or standing still and not using your Doom Siren and Lightning Claw.

Also I think the list is generally lacking in troops.

[Caitsidhe]

My main comment is a question. If you are going to include IG Allies, arguably with some of the best and varied AA and Heavy Weapons in the game, would you use Havocs? I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic. I just want to emphasis that the idea that including allies should be done to cover a weakness in your main force. You should focus those troops on what they do best.

[Angelofblades]

@Anggul:

The dilemma I've had with Noise Marines is the obvious one. Salvo. That being said, should a player manage to get noise marines halfway up the board, they then have range for pretty much the whole board. I, at least, think I am correct in making this assumption. The trick obviously, is to get them half way up the board, as intact as possible. Hence the Rhino. An alternative is, if I should roll Master of Deception, I could Infiltrate the Noise Marines to where I deem necessary, but that's really a 1 in 6 chance. Also, correct me if I am wrong, unless stunned or shaken, if the Noise Marines are blown out of their Rhino (wrecked or exploded) they don't count as having moved and can fire to full effect in their shooting phase.

The Doom Siren is one of the best assault deterrents for the unit as when taking Noise Weapons, you don't get access to close combat weapons. I don't intend to fire the combi weapon on overwatch, that's needed at regular BS, but I doubt many units will find charging into 21 ignore cover save bolter shots and D3 S5 AP3 hits - pleasan. That however, was just my thinking. The unit isn't meant to be charging headlong into combat, it's meant for board control. Get to a point halfway up the board, with a decent cover save, and shoot the rest of the game from the point.

@Caitsidhe:

I have tested previous evolutions of this list - eventually coming to this format. In one list I swapped the Maulerfiend for a Vendetta (same points) and the extra havoc squad and some upgrades for 2 nurgle oblits.

So far, I've found the Havocs long range fire power to be invaluable, while the IG Autocannons to be best used as support fire. Even with Bring it Down! order, I've found the single autocannons best for shaving off the first few hulls point off a vehicle/ stunning it or putting that first wound on a monstrous creature, but all the while, supporting the Havocs who ultimately finish the job if necessary. The synergy has worked quite well, in 4 test games so far. Mainly using the CCS and PCS to do this, while the PCS uses "FRFSRF!" order whenever possible.

I'm not sure why it seems like I am lacking in troops...it's got 25 IG who typically find themselves in cover and 18 power armored bodies. It has more troop model count than atypical 2 Tactical Squad SM lists and about as equivalent in bodies to Caitsidhe's Varrater Grim's list.

The list is also based on models I have / can get. The IG are easy enough to get, however if I could get my hands on 5 Sabre Gun platforms :P it would be highly tempting to trade in the Demolisher for those.

[Caitsidhe]

Fair enough but Obliterators can morph Auto-Cannons now allowing you both the options you like, 2+ Armor and the Mark of Nurgle.

[Angelofblades]

While that is true, here's the comparison:

2 lascannon shots followed by 2 autocannon shots each consecutive turn for 154 pts, that is w/ mark of nurgle.

4 autocannon shots, 2 lascannon shots per turn for 135 pts.

In my experience, when people shoot at Oblits, they typically fire weapons that ignore armor saves, plasma, lascannons, rail...
Making little difference when you fire AP2 weapons whether you have a 2+ or 3+ save, all you care at that point, is the cover save.

Plus, as a whole the Havocs have 5 wounds, vs the 4 wounds from the oblits, and the ability to still perform an overwatch, but if the Havocs are getting charged, I'm probably boned lol.

[Caitsidhe]

While that is true, here's the comparison:

2 lascannon shots followed by 2 autocannon shots each consecutive turn for 154 pts, that is w/ mark of nurgle.

4 autocannon shots, 2 lascannon shots per turn for 135 pts.

In my experience, when people shoot at Oblits, they typically fire weapons that ignore armor saves, plasma, lascannons, rail...
Making little difference when you fire AP2 weapons whether you have a 2+ or 3+ save, all you care at that point, is the cover save.

Plus, as a whole the Havocs have 5 wounds, vs the 4 wounds from the oblits, and the ability to still perform an overwatch, but if the Havocs are getting charged, I'm probably boned lol.

I suppose it is a preference thing. I would rather take three Obliterators than two unit of Havocs. That gives me (12) Autocannon shots one turn and three Lascannon shots the next. If I need it I have Plasma or Flamers. There is no instant death and a 2+ save. People shoot at Havocs too if they happen to be doing any damage. For the most part I prefer my IG allies to provide the Lascannons or big templates. The primary reason I include Obliterators at all is for the Auto-Cannons against Hordes and so if anything makes it to my IG I have something substantial to fight along with the blob. My personal experience with Havocs, particularly the small man units like you are fielding is that they get nailed. If/when I run them I fill out the entire squad for the bodies.

[Angelofblades]

Just want to offer a correction here:

Unless I missed something in the FAQ, but Oblits do NOT have access to Autocannons. They do however, have access to Assault Cannons, I just checked that up in my codex. I was wondering how I could have missed that they have Autocannons.

In order of their longest ranged weapons, oblits have:

Lascannons
Plasmacannons,
Multi-melta, Assault cannon, twin linked plasma gun
twin linked melta guns
Heavy Flamer and twin linked flamer.

So their only 48" ranged weapon is the lascannon

[Caitsidhe]

Assault Cannons... correct. Sorry. It was a long day and I transposed the two in name. Here is the thing, however, the range difference is largely unimportant. It is volume of "high strength" fire that you need in certain situations. The Obliterator Assault Cannons are highly useful against Orcs and even more important against the new Daemon builds.

The Havocs will simply be swamped by Screamers. Three Obliterators using Assualt cannons when they need to do it will put out (12) high strength, accurate shots. That is enough to cripple or destroy many units of Daemons before they hit you. That option is important. It is true that they cannot overwatch, but with Daemons you generally get your shots in first due to their unique arrival on the battlefield. Screamer/Flamer swarms are the new black for Daemon players and volume of high strenght fire (or at least the option of it) needs to be there. The IG Auto-Cannon won't hit enough or accurately. If you are going to go that route, consider the Sabre version of the same gun. At least there you are twin-linked and can get off interceptor shots at the Screamers as they warp in before they kill your whole blob.

[Anggul]

The problem with using the Champions as an assault deterrent is that they're a very expensive one. You're putting 40pts into an assault deterrent when, as you say, you're already firing a lot of Overwatch. 40pts just seems like a bit too much to spend on that when you could have another two Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters for that. Doom Sirens really do excel on the assault, I wouldn't pay for one just for D3 hits when they assault you.

I see what you mean with the Rhinos, it does let you get that little bit closer while remaining safe. You might find yourself too close by the time they get out and ready to fire though. If you move up turn 1, then get out turn 2, you'll only be firing at full range by turn 3, unless someone pops the Rhino in their turn 1, which they would probably only do if they were pretty sure they could kill enough of them in the same turn to sufficiently reduce their threat. I would probably just deploy them as normal and fire at anything that comes near. If nothing wants to come within 24" of them, that's a huge chunk of the board that you control, not to mention protecting your Guardsmen from assault. Anything that wants to get into close combat has to get through that barrage of noise first!

[Angelofblades]

Here is a revision:

Chaos Lord: 170
Bike, MoS, Sigil of Corruption, 2 x lightning claws, melta bombs, gift of Chaos

8 Noise Marines: 237
7 Sonic Blasters, Champ w/ Doom Siren, Power Sword
Rhino
Dirge Casters

10 Chaos Marines: 170
2 x Plasma guns,

8 Chaos Marines: 194
Plasma Gun, combi-Meltagun, Single Lightning Claw
Rhino
Dirge Casters

5 Havocs: 135
2 Autocannons, 2 Lascannons

Maulerfiend: 135
Lash tendrils

Heldrake: 170
Baleflamer

7 Chaos Bikers: 254
2 x Plasma guns (mounted on bikes), Mark of Slaanes, Icon of Excess,
Champ w/ Power Axe, Gift of Chaos

IG Allies:

CCS: 60
Autocannon

PCS: 40
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Auto cannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Demolisher: 165
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter