1850 Exorcists Space Marines - Some Odd Ideas Here, Check It Out

[ElectricPaladin]

HQ
• Terminator Captain w/Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Lightning Claw, Power Fist
° Command Squad (2 Flamers, 2 Plasma Guns)
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• Librarian w/Meltabombs

Elites
• 10 Tactical Terminators (2 Cyclonics, 3 Chainfists)

Troops
• 10 Tactical Marines (Plasma Gun & Plasma Cannon), Sergeant w/Meltabombs & Power Weapon
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• 10 Tactical Marines (Meltagun & Multi-Melta), Sergeant w/Meltabombs & Power Weapon
° Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon

Fast Attack
• Stormtalon w/Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support
• Land Raider Godhammer

This list is composed of three main elements:

Firstly, we have the captain, his terminators, and the land raider. The terminators form a layer of bubble wrap around the land raider and advance with it, giving it a cover save with their bodies and unleashing cyclonic death. This is the spearpoint of my force. In some scenarios, I can also see putting a combat squad of tactical marines inside the land raider so it can claim objectives.

Secondly, we have the librarian, the command squad, and the rhino tacs. They advance behind or to the side of the spearpoint. Their job is to claim objectives and take care of softer but more numerous targets.

Finally, the drop tacs are basically an assassination squad. They drop behind enemy lines and melta the sh*t out of hard targets. The combat squad that rides in the land raider probably comes from this squad. In an absolute pinch - ie. the odd situation in which I choose to teleport my terminators in - I've put a locator beacon on the drop pod.

I feel like this list has the potential to be flexible, unpredictable, and fun. It's direct and shooty, but not completely linear. I think it could be fun and win me some games.

My main concern is the potential lack of scoring bodies. At 1850, I feel like I ought to have at least one more Troops choice. I'm considering the possibility of dropping the stormtalon for a tactical squad. I also wonder if the ability to drop an element behind enemy lines is overrated, and if perhaps I should replace the drop tacs with a second rhino squad, putting a third vehicle on the table and giving me even more capacity to take objectives (you know, with tacs who aren't going to die after delivering their payload).

Thoughts?

[Tynskel]

what power weapon are you giving the terminator sgt? If the captain is going with the terminator squad (makes logical sense to me), maybe a Maul or Lance? Basically, you want the sgt/captain to be able to take care of any threats to the terminator squad in CC.

I would also split the Terminator squad into 2 terminator squads. That way you can teleport one terminator squad, and have another ride in the land raider.

what power weapons are you giving the tactical squad sgts?


Last thing:
About the Land Raider. If you are not going to use the transport functionality of the Land Raider, then ditch it. that's 250 points. Get more terminators, buy a fortification, buy Thunderfire Cannons and an Ironclad Dreadnought. Buy more drop pods. etc.

[ElectricPaladin]

It just occurred to me that an ancillary benefit of this list is that the librarian gets Feel No Pain, which might protect him against Perils of the Warp...


what power weapon are you giving the terminator sgt? If the captain is going with the terminator squad (makes logical sense to me), maybe a Maul or Lance? Basically, you want the sgt/captain to be able to take care of any threats to the terminator squad in CC.

The one I've got is modeled with a sword.


I would also split the Terminator squad into 2 terminator squads. That way you can teleport one terminator squad, and have another ride in the land raider.

They do have combat squads. That gives me only a single sergeant - and thus only a single at-initiative weapon - but it also gives me the tactical flexibility of splitting them or uniting them.


what power weapons are you giving the tactical squad sgts?

Axe on the melta sergeant, sword on the plasma sergeant.


About the Land Raider. If you are not going to use the transport functionality of the Land Raider, then ditch it. that's 250 points. Get more terminators, buy a fortification, buy Thunderfire Cannons and an Ironclad Dreadnought. Buy more drop pods. etc.

I am planning to put a combat squad in it so they can hop out and seize an objective. Probably a combat squad from off the melta squad, who will likely die. If I wasn't so leery of coming to the table without a flier, I'd consider dropping the stormtalon for more tacs to ride in the land raider, or scouts.

[Caitsidhe]

Firstly, we have the captain, his terminators, and the land raider. The terminators form a layer of bubble wrap around the land raider and advance with it, giving it a cover save with their bodies and unleashing cyclonic death. This is the spearpoint of my force. In some scenarios, I can also see putting a combat squad of tactical marines inside the land raider so it can claim objectives.

I want to start by saying I'm not being negative. My suggestions are made with good intentions. I've seen the notion of using bodies (even Terminators) to try and provide cover for a Land Raider before. It doesn't work. The Terminators cannot keep up with the Land Raider or the Land Raider is slowed down so much that the benefit of being an assault vehicle is largely lost. The cover save they provide isn't going to stop determined opponents and it is difficult to protect 25% of every facing of the vehicle. The greatest dangers to the Land Raider will simply be that someone drop or flies into a position where you don't give it cover anyway. What you are actually doing is using expensive Terminators to TRY and protect an expensive Land Raider. If I was your opponent I would be counting my lucky stars. I don't like the Terminators so seeing them out there guaranteed to be available for my AP-2 shooting would please me almost as much as the fact that the will be coming on slowly and holding up the vehicle. The best way to protect your Raider is to use the existing cover and come on hellbent for leather. It is better to weather a few shots than give turn after turn of shots up to gain that 5+ cover save (particularly when you can often get it anyway). The only reason to take an expensive Land Raider is to shove yourself down your opponent's throat as rapidly as possible.


Secondly, we have the librarian, the command squad, and the rhino tacs. They advance behind or to the side of the spearpoint. Their job is to claim objectives and take care of softer but more numerous targets.

Ok? This is a very general description so I can really tell you the pros or cons of it.


Finally, the drop tacs are basically an assassination squad. They drop behind enemy lines and melta the sh*t out of hard targets. The combat squad that rides in the land raider probably comes from this squad. In an absolute pinch - ie. the odd situation in which I choose to teleport my terminators in - I've put a locator beacon on the drop pod.

Assassination squads, i.e. those used for cracking hard targets are often better done with small, disposable units. You have to accept that against a competent opponent, you are unlikely to have any of these guys left after his/her turn following your drop. This is true whether you use five or ten, so you might as well use five. Do you trade and inflict the most damage you can to the tactical target you dropped in there to kill.


My main concern is the potential lack of scoring bodies. At 1850, I feel like I ought to have at least one more Troops choice. I'm considering the possibility of dropping the stormtalon for a tactical squad. I also wonder if the ability to drop an element behind enemy lines is overrated, and if perhaps I should replace the drop tacs with a second rhino squad, putting a third vehicle on the table and giving me even more capacity to take objectives (you know, with tacs who aren't going to die after delivering their payload).

Given that objective based scenarios are very numerous, you have a valid concern. They problem you might face is target priority. You are using your MOST expensive troops in a way that will almost certainly get them all slaughtered by the volume of fire so common in this edition. Your opponents will correctly identify your Terminators as the target of choice and ravish them dead with cheap dakka, all the while moving their own devastating AP-3 (of which there is plenty) against your Tactical squads. I don't think you have a bad list, but I think the tactics you plan to apply are suicidal.

[ElectricPaladin]

I want to start by saying I'm not being negative...

No sweat. I am not my list.

To summarize your critique:

A land raider flanked by terminators is not sufficiently protected - it's just a target. The terminators are so expensive that even in the situation that they protect the land raider (that might happen more than you think - don't forget that shooting through a unit is always 4+ cover, even if you're shooting a vehicle), they're just so expensive that the whole blob represents an overly delicious target.

You also think that a tac squad makes a poor aggressive assassination element because in order to get the neat weapons, it must be big, and therefore also expensive.

And finally, you agree that I have too few scoring bodies.


I don't think you have a bad list, but I think the tactics you plan to apply are suicidal.

What specific changes would you recommend, and how would you use this list? From what you've said, it sounds like you'd instead suggest using the terminators as walking artillery, but without a land raider at the center, and play the land raider aggressively elsewhere and without bubble wrap, hoping that it can use terrain without getting stuck in it.

[Caitsidhe]

What specific changes would you recommend, and how would you use this list? From what you've said, it sounds like you'd instead suggest using the terminators as walking artillery, but without a land raider at the center, and play the land raider aggressively elsewhere and without bubble wrap, hoping that it can use terrain without getting stuck in it.

Yes. I think if you are going to invest in Terminators you need to ram them down your opponents throat. I am a CSM player. I have Terminator-Like things (Oblits) that I can effectively use as artillery. You don't. :) I play against Terminators quite frequently and they are largely glass cannons. They have a great save, but volume of fire will get them. The new shooting rules allow you opponent to decide which save pools you make first. Clever ones will have you making the normal saves (gobs of them) first if a Storm Shield is up front, effectively taking it down by volume. Then they will switch to the AP-2 to kill everything else. Competent opponents will also us movement to put the more effective fire on the part of the Terminator unit least able to protect itself. While I am not in love with vehicles this edition, the Land Raider does hold up very well against most things. Lances and Melta are the biggest threat (no avoiding it) but most other things will not stop it short of blind luck from getting to your opponent's lines. If you are going to use Terminators it is important to pick out the soft target, i.e. some annoying shooting unit which needs to be killed and/or tied up. Rocket to that baby and get into them. The bigger the unit you hit the better.

You could also swap, putting a Tactical squad in that Land Raider and go the traditional Deepstrike route. Terminators appearing in the backfield to hit hard targets with Melta are more likely to still be there (if the unit was big enough) after your opponent's turn.

I need to read your Codex to figure out all the little details but it boils down to shooting and more shooting. Most opponents I face with competitive lists are evolving a shooting-centric list with 1-2 (normally just one) assault-leaning units. They are forming immobile and mobile gun lines based on fields of fire and objective scoring. You have the tools in this list to try and engage them, but if you get taken apart in detail, you will get tabled. Your list is almost what I would call a "go for broke" style army. If I were using your build I would deny a flank, move like a fist and pour everything into the weakest point on your opponent's line and try to roll them up.

[ElectricPaladin]

The other thing that occurred to me - and this makes me sad - is to remove the librarian, replace him with a small tac squad, and put the melta squad in a rhino. At that point, I can field two scoring squads in rhinos, both of them capable of shooting pretty effective weapons out the hatch as the rhino rolls around. I can also put a small scoring squad in the land raider - which I can wrap with terminators if the situation calls for it (ie. I know my opponent has a deep striking melta squad in reserve), though I agree that using it that way at start wouldn't work as well as I'd initially thought - without dividing any of my scoring units. Even without the librarian, a rhino squad with Feel No Pain and two plasma guns for heavy infantry/light vehicles and two flamers for light infantry/overwatch isn't anything to sneeze at.

I'm still not sure what I'd use the points for if I dropped the land raider. Scouts, maybe?

[Caitsidhe]

The other thing that occurred to me - and this makes me sad - is to remove the librarian, replace him with a small tac squad, and put the melta squad in a rhino. At that point, I can field two scoring squads in rhinos, both of them capable of shooting pretty effective weapons out the hatch as the rhino rolls around. I can also put a small scoring squad in the land raider - which I can wrap with terminators if the situation calls for it (ie. I know my opponent has a deep striking melta squad in reserve), though I agree that using it that way at start wouldn't work as well as I'd initially thought - without dividing any of my scoring units. Even without the librarian, a rhino squad with Feel No Pain and two plasma guns for heavy infantry/light vehicles and two flamers for light infantry/overwatch isn't anything to sneeze at.

I'm still not sure what I'd use the points for if I dropped the land raider. Scouts, maybe?

Here is the thing; I don't like vehicles much in 6th Edition. I need to get that bias out of the way up front. My current armies rarely have vehicles in them at all. That being said, the Land Raider does have a place. They are expensive. They are fire magnets (when more appetizing things aren't around like your Terminators), and their offensive output is mixed. The weapons that come with it are NOT worth the price. You are paying that obscene cost for the DELIVERY SYSTEM.

Let's assume you roll high speed on your first turn doing 12" and go for broke in the shooting phase for a bit more. Your next turn will limit you to 6" if you want to deploy. Granted your deployment gets you another 6" and then you have your random assault range. If we assume you started 12" forward, moved 18" total on your 1st Turn. This puts you 6" into your opponent's half of the table. Assuming your Land Raider is not blown to kingdom come, you move 6" and then deploy another 6" landing you well within a reliable assault of all but the most back-edge hugging units. That is reliable. The big question is whether or not you get blown up.

A variation on your bubble wrap (albeit also expensive) is to use two Rhinos with squads in them. You start them turned sideways in front of your Land Raider (which means it is a few inches back from the twelve). If you have proper terrain cover at the start you don't have to do this. On your turn you move the Rhinos first going hellbent for leather. Then you move up the Land Raider RIGHT BEHIND THEM. The Rhino's provide the cover save for the Raider and carry a potent SHOOTING payload. Even if they blow the Rhinos there is now the cargo between your Land Raider and the opponent still granting your cover save. The key difference is the Rhinos were able to keep up and now the shooters wills till be able to advance and shoot.

Your Tactical Squads buy a little protection, advance rapidly toward any objectives, provide a cover save for your Land Raider, and STILL can probably shoot at targets. They key thing is your Land Raider has a hard hitting assault unit (it is really great if you can give them Fleet somehow and make sure they have grenades) that can make that trip across no man's land worth it. They are supported by the shooters. Also, even if the Land Raider gets blown you can STILL ASSAULT on your next turn because it was an assault vehicle. What I am suggesting, while trying not to sound pompous is that you want to get a two for one... a three for one... hell as many things covered by the same build as possible.

The army you have is a good mixed bag of shooting and assault. To work they have to support each other. Sadly, they also have to get into combat. If you build a mixed bag, you lose half your value if you can't get into close combat. Thus, you want to move toward your opponent in a way that lets you maximize both types of units.

*Without reading your Codex for nice tricks and combinations I would suggest Two Rhinos with your balanced Tactical Squads doing the classic rush forward providing the cover for your Raider. The Raider should have a maximum (for the carry capacity) unit of the Terminators. The other Terminators should be loaded out for Deep Strike in and hit hard target with Melta or whatever else your faction provides. Deepstrike is only useful for shooting and then you have to weather a round. A mixed force should probably all be converging on a single objective and ideally the weakest point of your opponent's army is where you want to end up, maximum concentration to weakest. If you can stack a flank, all the better.

I don't hate your list. I am just realistic about the strengths and weaknesses. It is a utility list which does no particular thing well and no particular thing bad (except perhaps the lack of effective anti-air). It is a list that can meet a staggeringly wide variety of opponents and have a decent chance to win. However, this remains true only as long as you can keep the units in tandem. You have a very small window for error.

[Caitsidhe]

I posted my final, tuned "all-comer" 1850 list here too. It is:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?26568-Varrater-Grim-(Traitors-Grim)

Do I think your list could beat mine? Yes. Do I think it would be a harder fight for you than me? Definitely. I think comparing them is useful because we are both trying to build "all comer," general purpose armies that have a tactical chance against the widest group of opponents. Your list isn't bad but you lack coverage in a few areas and your margin of error is smaller. In short, you are generalist in design for each and every unit, while I am generalist in overall design.

I need to explain that better. Each of your units is somewhat flexible providing you a generalist situation as if each was an army in and of itself. My units are highly specialized but brought together in a way to provide me a generalist approach to most battlefields. Both approaches are SOLID. As with most lists, it isn't what you got but how you use it. You have to play to your strengths. With your existing list, how would you try to tackle mine? What do you see as your strengths and your weaknesses? If I'm going to ask you this, I should do the same.

If I were to tackle your list I would try to destroy it in detail, i.e. select priority targets for my artillery and Obliterators. These priority targets are the ones I want slow and/or destroyed by shooting if possible. Clearly your Terminators and Land Raider will draw as much fire as possible. The Obliterators are going to shoot at your Land Raider trying to use the Multi-Melta as you approach. The Artillery is going to shoot at Terminators along with any normal Dakka that is in range and has nothing better to shoot at. My Plague Marines and Daemon Prince are going to set your Tactical Squads and/or Drop Pod as priority. The PM special weapons will be for cracking the minor vehicles and assaulting the contents. The Plague Marines are a match for the Tactical Squads but if I can do so I will try to put 2 on 1. The Daemon Prince will exterminate any Squad he hits without question. Even if his Daemon weapon rolls a one he is probably going to kill a Tactical Squad. Remember, I don't want a fair fight. I want to take you apart with the deck stacked in my favor as much as possible. If I get to fight you on these terms I will probably table you.

Disadvantages:

I have a lot of apples behind that Aegis and if you can concentrate and converge fast enough, you could put a lot of devastating guns out of commission and force my entire army to turn around. Likewise, my Daemon Prince has a hideous amount of points sunk into him. If you can concentrate on him fast enough and take him out you might well overwhelm me with Dakka combined with an assault (but Dakka is better). Your mobile units jumping out of vehicle at an angle to deny me cover from some terrain (and thus making use of Shrouded) would help you a great deal. I rely on my DP for the bulk of my offensive power and losing him would cripple me. In short, my opponents have to decide which threat to converge on first, i.e. hit with an alpha strike. My biggest disadvantage is is my opponents ENTIRE force decides to concentrate fire on the DP (probably best bet) or my artillery, probably poor choice.

[Tynskel]

In my opinion, Terminators should be as close as possible to the enemy. They have assault weapons and nasty close combat weapons. So, either ride in the land raider or teleport.

Contrary to what the internets say, a land raider is wicked fast and extremely effective at delivering the contents.
Turn 1) 12" in movement, forgo shooting for 6" more.
Turn 2) 6" for movement get to shoot.
–Terminators disembark 6" and get to shoot
–Terminators get to charge 2d6".

Assuming the charge gets off, that's potentially 32"–42" in 2 turns.

That's slow? Please tell me what is fast!
You go any faster, and you go off the board...

If you want to shoot for 2 turns, you are effectively moving the same speed as in 5th edition.

[ElectricPaladin]

In my opinion, Terminators should be as close as possible to the enemy. They have assault weapons and nasty close combat weapons. So, either ride in the land raider or teleport.

Contrary to what the internets say, a land raider is wicked fast and extremely effective at delivering the contents.
Turn 1) 12" in movement, forgo shooting for 6" more.
Turn 2) 6" for movement get to shoot.
–Terminators disembark 6" and get to shoot
–Terminators get to charge 2d6".

Assuming the charge gets off, that's potentially 32"–42" in 2 turns.

That's slow? Please tell me what is fast!
You go any faster, and you go off the board...

If you want to shoot for 2 turns, you are effectively moving the same speed as in 5th edition.

So, then, what would you think of a list (and a strategy) like this:

HQ
• Terminator Librarian w/Storm Shield

Elites
• 10 Tactical Terminators (2 Cyclonic Missile Launchers, 3 Chain Fists)
• Techmarine w/Servo-Harness, Power Weapon [sword, probably]

Troops
• 10 Tactical Marines (Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon), Sergeant w/Power Weapon, in a Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• 10 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Multi-Melta), Sergeant w/Power Weapon, in a Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Fist in a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolters

Fast Attack
• Stormtalon w/Lascannons

Heavy Support
• Land Raider Crusader
• Vindicator w/Siege Shield

I could combat squad the terminators, putting the sergeant, the three chain fists, and one power fist in the land raider along with the librarian and the techmarine. The two cyclonics and three remaining power fists can either teleport in to hit a flank or start on the board. The techmarine keeps the land raider from getting immobilized, not to mentioned shooting with a flamer and a plasma pistol when he charges and carrying two extra power fists in addition to being another at-initiative fighter to take challenges so my power axe librarian doesn't need to.

The vindicator I see as a counter-charger. I can use it as a threat, following close to anything I need protected - the land raider, my rhinos, or even a combat squad with plasma cannon parked on a backfield objective - so my opponent knows whatever he uses to take it, I'll take in turn.

Alternately, I really can just play this list balls-out, crashing everything forward into the weakest part of my opponent's line and hope to break him. I don't think that would help much, but it would certainly be fun.

[Tynskel]

you cannot split and have 1 in reserves and the other on the board. That's why I recommend getting 2 terminator squads if you haven't used all of you Elite slots.

[ElectricPaladin]

you cannot split and have 1 in reserves and the other on the board. That's why I recommend getting 2 terminator squads if you haven't used all of you Elite slots.

Can you quote line and verse to me? I just reread the updated version of Combat Squads and I don't see anything that would imply this?

The appeal of one mega unit to be divided as I see fit is that I can put both cyclonics in one combat squad while only paying for one sergeant, who I can put where he's really needed. With two units, I can only have one cyclonic in the shooty squad, and the other is stuck in the land raider squad where it will do a lot less good. I suppose I could replace it with an assault cannon or heavy flamer, which isn't the worst idea in the world, but seems a lot less tasty than two cyclonics in one five-man pseudo-artillery squad.

[Tynskel]

You cannot split until you deploy to the board. You make the decision to split them as they are being deployed on the board.

I put shooty terminators into land raiders all the time. It is worth while to deliver them to where you want them to be.

[DarkLink]

Page 21 – Combat Squads.Replace with:
“A ten-man unit with this special rule can break down into two
five-man units, called combat squads.
You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads,
and which models go into each combat squad, immediately
before deployment. A unit split into combat squads therefore
is now two separate units for all game purposes including
calculating the total number of units in the army, and the
number of units you can place in reserve. Then proceed with
deployment as normal. Note that two combat squads split from
the same unit can embark in the same transport vehicle,
providing its transport capacity allows.
Once you have decided whether or not to split a unit into
combat squads, it must remain that way for the entire battle. It
cannot split up or join back together later on in the battle, nor
can you use a redeployment to split up a unit or join it back
together.”

Here's the full text of the GK FAQ Combat Squad.

[Nabterayl]

Uh, maybe I'm just being dense, but I also don't see why you can't have one combat squad in reserve and the other on the board. You split prior to deployment now, not on deployment, and from the text of the rule you clearly split prior to making any choices about reserves. Since you end up with two units "for all game purposes" prior to deployment, what's wrong with putting one unit in reserve and the other on the table? I didn't see a FAQ specifying that you can't do that.

[ElectricPaladin]

Uh, maybe I'm just being dense, but I also don't see why you can't have one combat squad in reserve and the other on the board. You split prior to deployment now, not on deployment, and from the text of the rule you clearly split prior to making any choices about reserves. Since you end up with two units "for all game purposes" prior to deployment, what's wrong with putting one unit in reserve and the other on the table? I didn't see a FAQ specifying that you can't do that.

That's my interpretation, too.

[Tynskel]

Okay, that's funny. Because I had a huge argument a couple years ago about how one could combat squad into reserves etc. Now I feel vindicated.

[Aegwymourn]

It is because of the wording in the base codex space marines. Before the FAQ it says "... must be made when the unit is deployed". Now it is "immediately before deployment".

[Caitsidhe]

We play it that way in my area, i.e. you can combat squad with half coming on the board and the other in Reserves as well. There is no reason you can't do it that I can see.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, it is much better. It made no sense to me that they had to be in close proximity. I can see a unit being called into reinforce another. That's the point of Combat Squads is the increased flexibility.

[thelion]

ok as far as an assassin sqd goes take 2 term 5 man term sqds and through one in the land raider and move flat out across the board to hit what ever hard tgt you are aiming for with it kind of a shock and awe blitzkrieg move it will draw enuff fire and sew enuff chaos in your enemy's ranks to hamper there plans. all the while using your vics and there smoke launchers to quickly move to any objective on the board allowing you to use the second term sqd with the cpt along with the Librarian and cmd sqd to clear any objectives so your tac sqds can just move up and take them. lastly i would use the drop tac sqd as a flex unit to back up any objective you are about to lose or to "steel" an objective late in the game (depending on re-enforcement roles). that is how i would use that army list with very few changes (ie homing beacon in a sqd instead of on the drop pod).

but i think that that basic tactic would work a little better if you took the cpt's term armour away and gave him artaficer armour (better bang for the buck) put him with the Librarian and the command sqd shook enuff points out of the army list for another drop pod put the second term sqd in it and dropped it right on top of your enemy's lines then use the rest of the army in the above described manner and presto there you are still in the spriet of you list and plan but a very blitzkrieg tactic (it worked for the Germans)