How bad is dual lash?

[elrodogg]

Hi all, I am primarily a fantasy player and wanted to get back into 40k. I am going through my old noise marine army and have a pair of demon princes.

From what I recall of 40k comp/gaminess in that it's out the window compared to fantasy comp/gaminess, basically you can bring what you want. Is that still the case with regards to the lash? It seems rather awesome especially alongside a 4 blastmasters elsewhere in the army. Is it considered bad form to use it? What about 2?

[Denzark]

I think if, of all the possible tools, tricks, and toys across all the different armies, something has caused you to particularly single out double lash to ask about the ettiquete of, you've probably answered your own question.

having said that a single psychic hood does all right for dispels so I don't worry about it.

[Lerra]

Dual lash in a Slaanesh-based list is completely fair and fluffy.

Dual lash in a mixed list is standard tournament fare, and some people will complain about it, but really it's expected in tournament play. If you play against CSM at a tournament, probably 50% of the lists will have dual lash. At 'ard Boyz it's more like 90%.

For casual play, you should probably stick to a single lash unless you're running Slaanesh.

[elrodogg]

Excellent. Casual play and dual lash FTW!

Thanks!

[Chumbalaya]

Lash is massively overrated. It's a good power, but not the be-all end-all it's made out to be. Something as simply as meching up nullifies its effectiveness, and taking down a T5 MC isn't that difficult either. Psychic defense is readily available for some armies as well: Psychic Hoods, Shadow in the Warp, Runes of Warding, Runic Weapons, Collars of Khorne, and so on.

Go nuts.

[Yhcrana]

I never saw the problem with dual lash, yes it is a good psychic power, just like how land raiders are good tanks/transports.

If it is the book as a standard option then no one can ever really have a problem with it. Thats why the army books are play tested. If it wasn't balanced then it would have a 0-1 limit or something similar.

Take 2 lashes if thats what you want then go have fun.

[MajorSoB]

Its at best a gimmick that is somewhat affective. Some armies get owned by it, others like Marines with hoods, Sisters who ignore it on a 5+ and Eldar with Ruins of Warding laugh at it. Its on the same lines as putting all your eggs in one basket. It does infuriate some people and if you get known as "that guy" there will be people who will not play you because of it. Do what you want but if you are looking for someone to tell you it isn't cheesy, look elsewhere.

[Denzark]

Excellent. Casual play and dual lash FTW!

Thanks!

thats why people don't like it - because some people use it FTW(AAC).

[Nikephoros]

I never saw the problem with dual lash, yes it is a good psychic power, just like how land raiders are good tanks/transports.



How fair it is comes down to how effective the rest of the list is at popping transports. By itself the power is ok to good. But the synergy of the list with Obliterators or Vindicators is what makes it so competitive and borderline broken.

So yeah, in a vacuum the power isnt going to make you tremble, but when the guy puts down 9 Obliterators, and 4 units of Plague Marines in Rhinos with dual melta guns each you have a mean list that isnt worried about enemy transports, really.

I think saying "mech armies auto-win vs dual lash" is probably a very drastic overstatement that would cost you games in a 'Ard Boyz type tournament.

[elrodogg]

Hearing alot of debate here. On one hand people are saying that a balanced list will have psychic defense and can mech up to avoid the lash therefore it's not that bad to take two. On the other hand, people are saying it's cheddar.

If psychic defense via the psychic hood really is that effective, then even going for psychic powers at all necessitate taking two? I would think that it's similar to fantasy in that people have found medium magic to be ineffective since there is such a high tendency to take lots of magic defense.

[AdamHarry]

Dual lash by itself isn't so bad. Sure it's kind of annoying to get yanked around the board by the other player, and it can be used pretty effectively to setup or delay assaults. It's also got the off chance to pin a unit which may be helpful every now and then.

The real power of lash is it's synergy with templates. double lash princes aren't so bad. But 2 lash princes with 9 obliteraters is down right mean.

Using that 2d6 move to clump up a unit and make it a nice juice target for templates is where it's border-line abusive...but thats part of the fun of running it :)

[crazyzombie]

I don't understand why people beileve that if you combined 2 lash princes and 9 oblits you have an istant kill. 9 oblits should be scary enough as is! Yes I know everybody has had this horrible expirence where the lash grouphug ploy turned their terminators into dust but if you think about it 3 plasma cannon shot or 3 twin linked plasma guns with out lash will shurly suffice in many situations. I think warptime is a powere that is possibly just as good or better and you don't need a mark of slaanesh.

[Nikephoros]

Yes I know everybody has had this horrible expirence where the lash grouphug ploy turned their terminators into dust but if you think about it 3 plasma cannon shot or 3 twin linked plasma guns with out lash will shurly suffice in many situations. I think warptime is a powere that is possibly just as good or better and you don't need a mark of slaanesh.

Warptime does one thing really well. Lash does a lot of things really well. Its a difference of versatility, among other things.

[crazyzombie]

I'm saying lash is a bad physic power( A very good one in fact) just that it isn't the the super death power everyone makes it out to be. While your right in that it's a very versital power it just isn't worth more on a DP than warptime for two reasons.

1. It means you rarely get freedom to move your DP to its best assult possition.You may feel fine lashing and blasting the TH/SS Term. over there but if you kill the squad this way your DP isn't going to get the assult (leaving it vunarble) or if some live you are forced to have your DP to commit to a dangrous assult(too bad your don't have warptime:cool:)

2. You lose the option to theme your DP the way you want to with marks you what.

Now if you choose the other guy who can cast spells(not saying much here but...) you could be better off

[Nikephoros]

By following your logic to its conclusions, a vanilla captain is better than Vulkan in Marine armies because while Vulkan makes the rest of your army better, the captain can be customized to be better in an assault. That makes no sense to me, the goal of 40k isnt to make the beefiest assault character, its to make the best whole army.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

By following your logic to its conclusions, a vanilla captain is better than Vulkan in Marine armies because while Vulkan makes the rest of your army better, the captain can be customized to be better in an assault. That makes no sense to me, the goal of 40k isnt to make the beefiest assault character, its to make the best whole army.

Not really,
the logic is that if you choose vulkan, and don't choose his specific compliments, you are wasting yourtime. Sure he's strong, in a speeder/melta;LRC/THSStermie;flamer army, but not so much in a jump pack assaulty DP Dread army.
Same with Dbl Lash. If you take that, and you don't a)take it's follow up fluff or b)take it's obvious compliments (template units such as oblits/vindies) you are shorting yourself.
So, pick those..and shoehorn yourself into specific builds...
take something a little more generic, and you can make a more diverse spread. Maybe not more efficient, maybe, but more diverse...less option restriction.


Lash is massively overrated. It's a good power, but not the be-all end-all it's made out to be. Something as simply as meching up nullifies its effectiveness, and taking down a T5 MC isn't that difficult either. Psychic defense is readily available for some armies as well: Psychic Hoods, Shadow in the Warp, Runes of Warding, Runic Weapons, Collars of Khorne, and so on.

Go nuts.

QFT

[Nikephoros]

Not really,
the logic is that if you choose vulkan, and don't choose his specific compliments, you are wasting yourtime. Sure he's strong, in a speeder/melta;LRC/THSStermie;flamer army, but not so much in a jump pack assaulty DP Dread army.
Same with Dbl Lash. If you take that, and you don't a)take it's follow up fluff or b)take it's obvious compliments (template units such as oblits/vindies) you are shorting yourself.
So, pick those..and shoehorn yourself into specific builds...
take something a little more generic, and you can make a more diverse spread. Maybe not more efficient, maybe, but more diverse...less option restriction.



QFT

I guess I'm just too competitive. I wouldnt consider suboptimal options. If I was playing Vulkan, ofcourse I'd play the most optimal build possible, same for Lash. Playing a 'fun' builds sounds the same as playing an 'intentionally bad build.'

[Exitus Acta Probat]

N:
I agree...it was actually kinda the point I was making.
You can't use (Vulkan/Dual Lash) without building the optimal build (well, you caaaan.. :( ), so it forces you to play a certain way (or build)...
whereas the generic captain/differently marked prince allows you to make an optimal build that isn't tied to one tactical path (or build path)...

I have trouble making myself build non-optimally...but there are times when it is fluffy to do so
(BoLS Badab Campaign is one example...there are army fluff builds that are appropriate for their armies, but not optimal for tourney play...just the way the 'story' is told).

[Nikephoros]

whereas the generic captain/differently marked prince allows you to make an optimal build that isn't tied to one tactical path (or build path)...

I agree with what you said. My Apocalypse armies are always fluffy and 'fun' (even when I bring my Reaver titan) but for the sake of this...

I think the captain/differently marked prince are sub-optimal to start with. If a tuned Vulkan list is a B+ tourney list, a balanced captain list is a B- or a C+, I just dont see why I would make that choice. A dual lash tourney build is an A- list, but a dual nurgle-warptime list is a B- list, I dont see why I would choose the weaker one.

Bottom line, I think the OP of this thread is asking if Dual Lash princes and blast masters is too hard for a fun list. I'd probably say it is. If someone is going to say that Warptime is "better" in a tournament setting thats a debate I'd love to have (since I'd win) in a different time and place but for the sake of this thread, I think its fair to say that 2 lash princes, 4 Noise Marine squads in Rhinos with blast masters, and some HS choices like oblts or Vindicators is too strong for strictly "fun" play.

[glitreflu]

I don't understand why people beileve that if you combined 2 lash princes and 9 oblits you have an istant kill. 9 oblits should be scary enough as is! Yes I know everybody has had this horrible expirence where the lash grouphug ploy turned their terminators into dust but if you think about it 3 plasma cannon shot or 3 twin linked plasma guns with out lash will shurly suffice in many situations. I think warptime is a powere that is possibly just as good or better and you don't need a mark of slaanesh.


How great your info is!But Can you give some more sample questions and answers.I really want to get more info about this topicIt really useful for me. Thanks.
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[crazyzombie]

And just wondering what is your clubs level of '"fun" gameplay. Is it using you all the units you would almost never see in tournament emvirerment(spawns, vanguard veterns, ect), is not using the super units you see in almost any competative list(stenguard, plague marines, ect), is just not maximise the efficinty of your army using Vulkan, but barely have any melta, flamers, and TH/SS in your army, or is it mixture of all these things? If you could tell us it would be much easer to answer your thread.

[A HUGE BLUNT]

Lash has largely fallen out of vogue for most CSM players. Most because of how mechanized 5th edition has come. Anyone complaining you might hear about it will come from players still bitter about 4th edition games when it was used more or people who are just parroting what they heard about those days.