Is anybody else getting bored with The Horus Heresy books?

[Bob821]

Is anybody else getting bored with The Horus Hersy books or am I talking Heresy?

I'm two thirds of the way though 'The Primarchs' and I'm losing the will to read any more. I've got 'Fear to Tread' waiting for me in my bedroom but I'm not sure I can face another Primarch I love and respect falling in to another Demonic trap we can all see coming from a mile away.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I am only on mechanicum myself, and I really enjoy all the points of view involved, it really makes things interesting for me. There is no heresy in not enjoying specific books or the books growing old. Everyone has different tastes and tolerances for certain stories. Some people get sick of stories quickly, some take forever with it. Really it depends.

[Kawauso]

I haven't read the Heresy in a while - I think the last book I finished was Thousand Sons.
But that's been more because of time and the fact I get distracted pretty easily.

I do like that there's plenty of story waiting for me when I decide to get back into it. I certainly wasn't getting tired of the series, but then you're farther along than I was.

On the one hand I can see where certain complaints about the Heresy dragging on are coming from - but on the other thus far I've really enjoyed the multifaceted approach to it. The whole event really does feel like a civil war on a massive, galactic scale...and I've enjoyed getting to know each of the legions better, particularly the traitors. I'm a sucker for tragedies though.

So ah, I'm not bored yet. Maybe someday? We'll see. :)

[White Tiger88]

Bored? Hell no! i want more heresy BLOOD ANGEL'S FTW!!!

[Count Fenring]

Yes, I feel they bottomed out, just milking it too hard.

[David Blumenthal]

IMO they could move things along a little faster. They can always go back to elaborate on certain events, if needed.

[iheartgrimdark]

Nah, I'm still into it. Some stories are better than others though. Fear to Tread and Deliverance Lost were average, The Primarchs was hit and miss but the Impfist and Night Lords stories from Shadows of Treachery were very good, which was slightly unexpected. Also, Brotherhood of the Storm offered a bit of insight into the White Scars and The Great Khan. I do think that the Black Library know they are onto a good money spinner what with the hardback special editions they are releasing and all the spin offs. But whilst they are still dropping power bangers like Know no Fear I'm still interested because the quality overall is still there.

[Denzark]

Some books are awesome, some are a bit meh. What is getting boring for me is:

1. God like Primarchs making schoolboy errors.

2. All the Dark Angel Books.

3. Limited edition Novellas, hardbacks, illustrated plated in the gold-leafed poo of a captain of astartes editions - just tell us all the tales and not in a format that gouges the pockets. And hurry up and get to Terra and let Bill King write the encounter betwen Horus and Emp - in fact just use his earlier fluff, it is awesome.

[Gut40k]

dont bother with Fear to Tread. big let down especially if you are a BA fan. Pretty much agree with most of the above. Stories/books are getting watered down.

[spaceman91]

im gunna have to agree with many of you. I dont have the money to blow on the big flash things that they keep bringing out. i would have liked to read the white scars book but i just cant justify it and once again i have to agree that many of the books have been meh. fear to tread is one. i also have a gripe that i dont like hard backs so this new format sucks for me ( before anyone says anything i know im strange ).

[Cpt Codpiece]

i can understand loosing your way in 'the primarchs' i found the iron hands book almost impossible to read, i only managed it via audio book.

the thing about the errors that each primarch made are there for a reason, for all they were supreme in the fields they were we engineered for, they were then lacking in great measures in others.

guilliman, librarian........ too sure of his/the systems he relied on.
the lion, supreme tactician....... too gullible/trusting/a little emo (oh poor me, i gave the enemy big guns, now they will all hate me.... well il;l stop either of them winning).
sanguinius....... oh he was nasty in combat.......... just not nasty enough.... too girly for his own good..... oh and the flaw.
perturabo, iron hard resolve..... to a fault, his iron will and determination damned him yet he was too pig headed to atone, so gave in and joined the party.

the list goes on.

[Kirsten]

I do enjoy some of them, but I agree with the original point about daemon attacks. you have to wonder what would have happened if at the start of the crusade the emperor had just said, 'oh by the way guys, there are daemons in warp, and big evil entities that will try and possess people, just fyi'
I think there is a certain problem with trying to elaborate on a story that has certain plot holes to begin with. The special edition business is really annoying, I am a white scars fan, but the books just aren't well written enough to be worth that kind of money for me.

[Mr Mystery]

Special Editions are all first reads. There's the promise they'll be released in anthologies in the future.

Primarchs is a bit ropey. But Know No Fear and Fear to Tread are awesome. I am resisting the hardback one though. Would ruin my collection's aesthetic on the shelf.

[Kirsten]

I bought Angel Exterminatus, £20 was acceptable as an Iron Warriors player, and it was really good actually, one of my favourites so far.

[Mr Mystery]

I want it, just in Paperback. I like having my books neatly on display!

Looking forward to the new Ciaphas Cain book though. Happy with that being hardback.

[wittdooley]

Nope. Everything had been at least decent lately. Fear to Tread, while not fantastic, was a solid read. Before that, No Know Fear was fantastic. The newest novella was fantastic. So far Angel Exterminatus is very, very good.

So in short, I wholeheartedly disagree with you (though the Iron Hands story in The Primarchs was pretty bland).

[Scorch]

2. All the Dark Angel Books.


aren't there only 2?
Personally. I only read the Horus heresy books detailing the armies which I collect/find interesting. So I've not got bored of them yet :)

[Bob821]

Don't get me wrong there have been some pearls Prospero burns, Legion, know no fear and so on. I just found I was getting bogged down in Primarchs and Deliverance Lost did not really catch me either.

I'm dreading Fear to Tread. I really did not like what James Swallow did with the blood angels in his other books and I love Blood Angels so much I'll be gutted if the book is meah.

[Wildeybeast]

Don't get me wrong there have been some pearls Prospero burns, Legion, know no fear and so on. I just found I was getting bogged down in Primarchs and Deliverance Lost did not really catch me either.

I'm dreading Fear to Tread. I really did not like what James Swallow did with the blood angels in his other books and I love Blood Angels so much I'll be gutted if the book is meah.

I loved Deliverance Lost, though as someone who has real hard on for the Raven Guard and really enjoyed Legion, I'm probably biased. I think Corax is one of the few Primarchs who doesn't make chumpy mistakes, it's only the sneaky cunning of the enemy which undoes him and the Raven Guard.

[Kawauso]

There are definite stinkers in the Heresy lineup, to be sure. I found Battle for the Abyss pretty snore-worthy and tough to get through. Though it did have some of the best space battles between large ships that I've read pretty much anywhere, so it gets kudos for making those interesting.

[David Blumenthal]

The books weren't bothering me that much until Dan teabagged the Space Wolves with trying to make them a little too deep.

Then he sodomized the Ultramarines.

I'd really like him to stick to his IG and Inquisition novels. Those are amazing. He just craps all over Astartes, though.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i gotta say, 'deliverence lost' i found a great read, probably mymost listened too audio too.... confusing at first with the alpharius thing, but its like 'the book of eli' once you have seen the film so much detail makes sense the subsequent times. (no i am not gonna spoil this epic film).

i dont see the problem people have with 'prospero burns' though, its quite straight forward. taking you from fenris' wilderness to near astartes covering all of the bases in between, as well as the back story as too why. then there is the whole 13th warrior thing, which was great. and the whole hidden/horus twist :)

the only issue i have with 'know no fear' is the stand out details of girlyman, the 'codification' and 'time stamps' i found were quite pointless other than to show what an anal librarian girlyman was. also the links to olanius the pious made me smile, as well as link the sensei in with the retconned past.
i dont think he did anything to the ultras that were not already explained in their past, calth has always been a remnant of the betrayal, and the ultras are written very boring..... just like ultras are.

i am still to finish 'fear to tread' it just seems so slow.

[wittdooley]

The books weren't bothering me that much until Dan teabagged the Space Wolves with trying to make them a little too deep.

Then he sodomized the Ultramarines.

I'd really like him to stick to his IG and Inquisition novels. Those are amazing. He just craps all over Astartes, though.

You're nuts. Prospero is possibly the best novel in the whole Black Library canon. And Know No Fear is fantastic. What Abnett did with the wolves was give them purpose and culture, something the previous wolves books certainly don't do; those simply perpetuate the Vikings in Space mythos.

I think you're way off point. Abnett is far and away the best author working on the HH series.

[David Blumenthal]

You're nuts. Prospero is possibly the best novel in the whole Black Library canon. And Know No Fear is fantastic. What Abnett did with the wolves was give them purpose and culture, something the previous wolves books certainly don't do; those simply perpetuate the Vikings in Space mythos.

I think you're way off point. Abnett is far and away the best author working on the HH series.

I'm "nuts" because I have an opinion different from yours? I was under the impression that I was allowed to like what I will.

Please tell me what else to think, Witt.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You're nuts. Prospero is possibly the best novel in the whole Black Library canon. And Know No Fear is fantastic. What Abnett did with the wolves was give them purpose and culture, something the previous wolves books certainly don't do; those simply perpetuate the Vikings in Space mythos.

I think you're way off point. Abnett is far and away the best author working on the HH series.

I hate Space Wolves...
*awaits rage*

[White Tiger88]

I hate Space Wolves...
*awaits rage*

Who doesn't? It is also a really ****ty book the best so far are Fear to Tread and Thousand sons

[wittdooley]

I'm "nuts" because I have an opinion different from yours? I was under the impression that I was allowed to like what I will.

Please tell me what else to think, Witt.

Yeah, I think that's more or less right.

But then again, I think Deliverance Lost is a turd and lots of people here seem to like it. I sincerely don't know why. We're clearly looking for different things from these books and I have no attachment to preexisting fluff. I think what Abnett did in Prospero Burns is significantly better than everything previously written regarding their background and no one has yet to provide me a reasoned argument why they feel differently. Please do so, I'd love to hear it!

I like the Blood Angels and typically like James Swallow and was fairly disappointed by Fear to Tread. Some great "creepy and tense" moments are ruined by some shallow characterization and inability to conclude a few story threads.

I'd also love to know why you didn't like Know No Fear. I believe it to be the most cinematic and "clean" book in the HH series and the stylistic differences in it mark it out as even stronger and a tribute to Abnetts ability as a writer.

@TDA --> you're more than welcome to hate the wolves; that doesn't change the fact that I vehemently believe Prospero to be the most well written and full book in the HH series (and perhaps the BL canon). From a literar standpoint, it's a pretty easy sell.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I couldn't even start it, that's how much I disliked it....

*slaps Witt*
Deliverance Lost was awesome, the Raven Guard are amazing!

I think my winner is Angel Exterminatus, it's filled with win.

[White Tiger88]

I couldn't even start it, that's how much I disliked it....

*slaps Witt*
Deliverance Lost was awesome, the Raven Guard are amazing!

I think my winner is Angel Exterminatus, it's filled with win.

Naw Fear to Tread and A Thousand sons are still way better books.......

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Have you even read AE?

[White Tiger88]

Have you even read AE?

Yup i own every black library book almost funny enough, Its not even close to being as good as the Ulrika series never the less the other heresy books. (At least in my opinion however it does crush Prospero burns but then again everything does)

[David Blumenthal]

Yeah, I think that's more or less right.

Very mature. Keep going about things that way. I'm sure it will work out for you.

I'd have loved to enter polite discourse with you and gain some fresh perspective on the subject, myself. However, I'd prefer not to debate with rude d**kheads who only give a crap about their egocentric viewpoints.

When you're blindly praising your boy Dan like the rest of his devoted fans, no matter the quality of a particular work, be sure to cup the boys.


Yup i own every black library book almost funny enough, Its not even close to being as good as the Ulrika series never the less the other heresy books. (At least in my opinion however it does crush Prospero burns but then again everything does)

I know what Dan was trying to do with Prospero. He was trying to give the Wolves some depth. But all he did was make them a bunch of weirdo S&M enthusiasts combined with a ripoff of 13th Warrior/Eaters of the Dead. If that was all he did, though, it could have still been enjoyable. Instead, however, he also tried to make it all deep and spooky with a pawns and puppet masters angle. Wrong novel to do so. Should have been its own story on its own. A short story, ideally.

Really, this is more analysis that it deserves. Occasionally Dan rests on his laurels and just writes a rag based upon "you can't please everybody." This was one of them.

I was all set for some depth to the Wolves. Then it just went wrong.

[White Tiger88]

Remember.....Wolves like whips & Chains.... Me:Thanks Dan...Really wanted to know that!!

[Deadlift]

I love the HH as a series, but I will admit i enjoyed the earlier books they did seem to have that extra something the later books don't. The books concerning Garro, the Thousand sons and the wolves and the Alpha legion were the better reads for myself personally. I really enjoyed the Ultra Marines, Word Bearers one too. I think for me the HH series is now starting to feel like its being milked for all its worth by BL and they are delaying the final battle as long as possible to make for money from the series before it conclusion.

Personally I am looking forward to seeing this stories climax and then seeing what BL can do to replace its flagship series.

[energongoodie]

I'm loving the series. I haven't read the e-book shorts but other than that I'm up to date. I'm in the middle of Angel Exterminatus and I'm loving it! Iron Hands ahoy!

[Learn2Eel]

I still need to read A Thousand Sons. It's really cool that a book about my favourite legion seems to be one of the most popular :D
Can anyone tell me what it is like? From what I can tell Ahriman and Magnus both crop up in it quite a bit.

[energongoodie]

I still need to read A Thousand Sons. It's really cool that a book about my favourite legion seems to be one of the most popular :D
Can anyone tell me what it is like? From what I can tell Ahriman and Magnus both crop up in it quite a bit.

It's great.
If your a thousand sons fan you should be all over this with side of fries!
Plenty of food for thought for thousand sons background.

[Learn2Eel]

Haha yeah everyone keeps telling me that but I still haven't gotten around to it, I must do this.

[energongoodie]

Haha yeah everyone keeps telling me that but I still haven't gotten around to it, I must do this.

Holidays are coming, holidays are coming.
AKA Christmas present request?

[Learn2Eel]

Might just be :)

[Lexington]

The Heresy books never grabbed me much, honestly. They're the same joke ("a 40K tradition comes from an unexpected source! Irony!") told umpteen times, despite not being very funny in the first place.

[Mr Mystery]

Sorry if this sounds rude, but what else were you expecting from them?

[Lexington]

Not much of worth, to be honest. Taking the Heresy from myth to franchise is, to me, the biggest IP blunder GW's ever made without Ward's infernal input, and the achingly lame novels have done little to improve my opinion on the subject. Not sure why you'd suggest that particular element - or its blatant overuse - are necessary, tho.

[wittdooley]

Very mature. Keep going about things that way. I'm sure it will work out for you.


Clearly the sarcasm in my statement was missed. Of course we're all entitled to our own opinions; I just happen to think, in this instance, you're entirely wrong. I could have rolled with not liking Prospero Burns--it seems to be a polarizing book-- but you lost me with "sodomized the unltramarines." I'd love to hear the fault you found with Know No Fear.

And FWIW, I've given a fair amount of thought to these books in the reviews I've written on them, so I'm not simply spouting off without giving the novels proper consideration.

I still disagree with Deliverance Lost. It's poorly written and leaves a lot of loose ends. It remains, IMO, the weakest book since Battle of the Abyss.

[Mr Mystery]

Not much of worth, to be honest. Taking the Heresy from myth to franchise is, to me, the biggest IP blunder GW's ever made without Ward's infernal input, and the achingly lame novels have done little to improve my opinion on the subject. Not sure why you'd suggest that particular element - or its blatant overuse - are necessary, tho.

I have to say, are we reading the same novels?

The Heresy series has been pretty damned solid so far as far as I'm concerned, barring the odd ropey entries. I'm really pleased with how the tragedy of how it all came to pass. Horus' fall to chaos played out beautifully, and Fulgrim is the best of the bunch.

The failings of the Primarchs are the failings of their father. Had the Emperor confided in them the nature of Chaos, rather than denying it's existence proved to be the beginning of the end. To learn that Horus and his allies annihilated portions of their own Legions, and the heroism of the survivors of Istvaan likewise highly satisfying.

And now we learn of the loyalist reaction. To witness their response to such betrayal, and the panic that ensues is again sublime. For my money, the authors can hold their heads up high. The galaxy we're shown in this series is broadly familiar, but the early overtones of hope and triumph work beautifully as a juxtaposition of the same galaxy 10,000 years later.

Now I'm not calling you out on your opinion, but I just don't get your criticism.

[plawolf]

When the HH first started, it was really something new and exciting because you can feel the tectonic plates of the entire universe moving and everything unravelling. The entire universe was affected and will never be the same again, and as such, you felt the stories mattered because so much hinged upon it.

It was this sense of being witness to something momentous happening right before your eyes that first attracted me to the series, and it was refreshing in contrast to the grinding staleness of stories set in the 'current' timeline where nothing changes the big picture much no matter how epic or significant it claims to be.

Now the Heresy series is loosing it's defining feature because it just feels like any other 40K book where the things that happen in it does not really matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. The overarching story has pretty much been paused since Flight of the Eienstein and we are just getting watered down filler designed to milk us for all we are worth.

Some of the books might be good reads, but I think we are long past the point where the vast majority of the reader base just wants them to get the hell on with the main story already and stop procrastinating.

I myself am giving up on the series until they actually start to advance the main plot in a meaningful way again. I would suggest we all do this because BL will never advance the story and actually finish the series if they think they can keep stringing us along with endless meaningless 'what ____ did next' books, and they will do precisely that so long as sales of said books hold steady.

[David Blumenthal]

Clearly the sarcasm in my statement was missed. Of course we're all entitled to our own opinions; I just happen to think, in this instance, you're entirely wrong. I could have rolled with not liking Prospero Burns--it seems to be a polarizing book-- but you lost me with "sodomized the unltramarines." I'd love to hear the fault you found with Know No Fear.

And FWIW, I've given a fair amount of thought to these books in the reviews I've written on them, so I'm not simply spouting off without giving the novels proper consideration.

I still disagree with Deliverance Lost. It's poorly written and leaves a lot of loose ends. It remains, IMO, the weakest book since Battle of the Abyss.

Dude, we're talking about personal tastes here. Someone's personal taste can't be "wrong" and that's where you're completely disconnected. You're a special kind of conceited, judging from your comments.

I really don't care how much you approve of my preferences.

I will be brief because this is really not worth more than a few minutes of my attention:

The novel was awesome for the first third. Some great characters and attention to detail. The buildup was palpable and it didn't take Dan's usual 180 pages to get to the substance. Then the Word Bearers launch their surprise attack, which is certainly the only way that a legion of fangirls can threaten the Ultras. So the attack is launched and I'm waiting for the Ultras to gain their footing. Them reeling initially from the fanatics' betrayal is understandable. The sheer shock of the audacity would buy the 'Bearers some time. After 100 pages of rough *** pounding, I'm still waiting for the Ultras to act like Ultras. Their primarch is stamping around his bridge with tears in his eyes, which I'd understand from certain other primarchs, but not *the* tactical jeebus of 40k. I was waiting all the way until 90% of the way through the novel, and the redemption that I was expecting was merely the Ultras applying a bit of lube for further savaging of their collective bungholes. Even Kor Phanon escaped the Primarch's wrath. The Word Bearers left casually, with barely a scratch, as if they were bored after blowing another load.

Calth was not supposed to be a slaughter. It was supposed to be the Word Bearers getting some vengeance while delaying the Ultras from interfering with Horus' early plans. It was a surprise attack (check) that caught the Ultras off guard (check), however, the martial prowess and tactical acumen of Guilliman sees them through and they gain their footing (hmmm... no). The entire point of the influence of the Ultramarines after the Heresy is that they still had some numbers, besides Guilliman's abilities. Not after ol' Dan's treatment. He just slaughtered the legion for an entire novel and shamelessly set it up for the sequel, which is just the legion remnants left on the planet fighting the Word Bearers left under the surface. What is supposed to be the mightiest legion after the heresy is now a shattered ghost of itself, filled with whiny babies that repel attacks by crying hysterically.

If the novel was part of a trilogy, it might have been okay. But it's not. I was slapped for sitting through the entire novel and expecting to be repaid with some fight from the Ultras. Instead I just read about Lorgar the Ultimate Fangirl slapping his nuts on Guilliman's forehead and chin for 403 pages. He feverishly writes for 85% of those pages, then realizes that he has run out of room. So he squeezes a real ending into the space of an epilogue. He's done this in the past, but without nearly as many things left unresolved.

Good points of the book:
Explained some things such as the scouring of the surface of Calth.
Good background on some influential characters only mentioned in the past.
I like the red helmets for sergeants thing. A great touch.

Bad points of the book:
Once again Dan sees some wiggle room on a subject and exploits it to the point of bad form.
Another lazy wrap up. Dan needs to pace himself a bit better.
Poor coordination with previous authors' material. When he stands on the shoulders of giants, he ****s all over said shoulders.

[wittdooley]

Dude, we're talking about personal tastes here. Someone's personal taste can't be "wrong" and that's where you're completely disconnected. You're a special kind of conceited, judging from your comments.

I really don't care how much you approve of my preferences.

I will be brief because this is really not worth more than a few minutes of my attention:

The novel was awesome for the first third. Some great characters and attention to detail. The buildup was palpable and it didn't take Dan's usual 180 pages to get to the substance. Then the Word Bearers launch their surprise attack, which is certainly the only way that a legion of fangirls can threaten the Ultras. So the attack is launched and I'm waiting for the Ultras to gain their footing. Them reeling initially from the fanatics' betrayal is understandable. The sheer shock of the audacity would buy the 'Bearers some time. After 100 pages of rough *** pounding, I'm still waiting for the Ultras to act like Ultras. Their primarch is stamping around his bridge with tears in his eyes, which I'd understand from certain other primarchs, but not *the* tactical jeebus of 40k. I was waiting all the way until 90% of the way through the novel, and the redemption that I was expecting was merely the Ultras applying a bit of lube for further savaging of their collective bungholes. Even Kor Phanon escaped the Primarch's wrath. The Word Bearers left casually, with barely a scratch, as if they were bored after blowing another load.

Calth was not supposed to be a slaughter. It was supposed to be the Word Bearers getting some vengeance while delaying the Ultras from interfering with Horus' early plans. It was a surprise attack (check) that caught the Ultras off guard (check), however, the martial prowess and tactical acumen of Guilliman sees them through and they gain their footing (hmmm... no). The entire point of the influence of the Ultramarines after the Heresy is that they still had some numbers, besides Guilliman's abilities. Not after ol' Dan's treatment. He just slaughtered the legion for an entire novel and shamelessly set it up for the sequel, which is just the legion remnants left on the planet fighting the Word Bearers left under the surface. What is supposed to be the mightiest legion after the heresy is now a shattered ghost of itself, filled with whiny babies that repel attacks by crying hysterically.

If the novel was part of a trilogy, it might have been okay. But it's not. I was slapped for sitting through the entire novel and expecting to be repaid with some fight from the Ultras. Instead I just read about Lorgar the Ultimate Fangirl slapping his nuts on Guilliman's forehead and chin for 403 pages. He feverishly writes for 85% of those pages, then realizes that he has run out of room. So he squeezes a real ending into the space of an epilogue. He's done this in the past, but without nearly as many things left unresolved.

Good points of the book:
Explained some things such as the scouring of the surface of Calth.
Good background on some influential characters only mentioned in the past.
I like the red helmets for sergeants thing. A great touch.

Bad points of the book:
Once again Dan sees some wiggle room on a subject and exploits it to the point of bad form.
Another lazy wrap up. Dan needs to pace himself a bit better.
Poor coordination with previous authors' material. When he stands on the shoulders of giants, he ****s all over said shoulders.

What "giants" are these that he's standing on the shoulders of? Abnett (or Dan to you; I guess you two are friends?) is pretty well recognized as the best author in the BL stable and his work within said canon supports that. McNeill is more or less his peer and they both work on this series together, so if you're listing him as this mythical "giant" then you need to give McNeill an equal amount of blame: the two of them are the primary architects of this overarching story.

As to Know No Fear: the Ultras were far and away the largest legion and the happenings of Know No Fear deplete their numbers considerably, but still leave them with a massive number of legionaries. Perhaps you didn't read the whole book, because the tactical acumen of Guilliman and the rest of he Legion DOES lead the ultras to an eventual victory. And that "shattered ghost" is still larger than most of the other legions post-Calth.

Appreciate your recognition that I'm a "special kind of conceited". That was a nice touch. As was your eloquence in regards to ball slapping and bunghole lubing. Classy too. Well played, sir.

[miteyheroes]

The initial trilogy was amazing. Our first clear look at the HH for 20-odd years, mind-blowing stuff. The Imperium as scientific rationalists meeting the inherent weirdness of the 40k universe worked wonderfully.

Then the series got a bit lost and confused. There were some GREAT stories, but there were some blunders (Dark Angels, Abyss - although even the Dark Angels I've enjoyed more on re-reading).

But now it's getting interesting again. We're into previously fairly unexplored territory (what DOES Horus & Co do between Istvaan & Terra? Why does it take them so long? What happens in the main bit of the Heresy - we all know the start and the end, but the middle?), and BL have set it up wonderfully. They've got multiple narratives by their best authors, all looking at the same battles from different angles. Dan Abnett does Know No Fear, epically covering one of the few big battles we know about from the Heresy, but then ADB and others reveal that that was just a cover for Lorgar & Angron's sneaky business deeper in Ultramar. The whole Thramas Sector narrative slowly rolls out. And other ones also seem to be opening up. And they leave such massive questions in novels, only to revisit them later and they slot into place... I love it. It's mythopoesis on an excellent scale.

For me the one real downpoint at the moment is Nick Kyme. How someone can make Eldar Exodites riding dragons boring, I'll never know. Yet he does! Our few glimpses of the pre-Heresy Salamaders and the Iron Hands, utterly wasted. I have absolutely no interest in anything happening on One-Five-Four-Four.

Incidentally I enjoyed Know No Fear except for one massive thing. There's not a single moment in the whole book where power armour stops a shot. Every bolt round penetrates, there seems to be no point in wearing it except to display your rank markings and to use it as a space suit!

[David Blumenthal]

What "giants" are these that he's standing on the shoulders of? Abnett (or Dan to you; I guess you two are friends?) is pretty well recognized as the best author in the BL stable and his work within said canon supports that. McNeill is more or less his peer and they both work on this series together, so if you're listing him as this mythical "giant" then you need to give McNeill an equal amount of blame: the two of them are the primary architects of this overarching story.

As to Know No Fear: the Ultras were far and away the largest legion and the happenings of Know No Fear deplete their numbers considerably, but still leave them with a massive number of legionaries. Perhaps you didn't read the whole book, because the tactical acumen of Guilliman and the rest of he Legion DOES lead the ultras to an eventual victory. And that "shattered ghost" is still larger than most of the other legions post-Calth.

Appreciate your recognition that I'm a "special kind of conceited". That was a nice touch. As was your eloquence in regards to ball slapping and bunghole lubing. Classy too. Well played, sir.

Damn. I was SO worried about your opinion of my class!

Apparently, our definitions of "victory" are quite different. 85% casualties, barely avoiding extermination and a primarch being made a prison ***** equal a smashing victory to you. I just took a dump. It was a bit runny due to Indian food earlier today. Apparently, if Dan wrote about it, you'd describe it as a major victory because I didn't die in the process. I'm a damn hero!

I thought Know No Fear was poorly done. It had some redeeming qualities, but overall I didn't feel like I came out of it with the desired feel. Leave it at that.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet it's not poorly done.

Best part of a Legion gets caught with it's power armoured trousers round their black carapaced ankles, and get horribly bummed. And then you see their true quality. They don't panic. They don't route. Quick breather, buckle up, and 'well, I guess we should GO AND KICK THEIR HEADS IN!!!'

Marvellous stuff!

The battle for Calth is presented as a microcosm of the wider heresy, and it's eventual outcome. A pristine world, representing the pinnacle of the fledgling imperium, and it's bright future. A world safe from war and conflict, a paradise for mankind. The first of untold many. All laid to waste by a single traitorous act. The shining glory of centuries of hard fought war, torn asunder by the selfish, deluded actions of the few. The heroes left reeling, but coming together to strike back, violently and decisively. Yet the victory is pyrrhic. Calth, and the dream of the imperium lies in ashes, a shattered wasteland inimical to human life. Just like the galaxy after the heresy's conclusion.

What's not to like?

[DarkLink]

I have to say, are we reading the same novels?


It's all relative. Compared to, say, Neil Gaiman and the stuff I normally read, the Black Library is a waste of time. I've read a couple, they were fun, but I'll save my money and time on other things. Some of them are probably really good, they're just low on my list of things to read.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is totally fair enough. It just seems there are those who expect every book they read to be Tolstoy. Just as people went to see Transformers, seemingly expecting citizen Kane.

BL offer decent pulp fiction, set in familiar world/galaxy, and that's what I love about them. They're easy going reads, and I know I'm going to get my monies worth.

Apart from Dan Abnett's Fantasy stuff. Really didn't enjoy those.

[plawolf]

The initial trilogy was amazing. Our first clear look at the HH for 20-odd years, mind-blowing stuff. The Imperium as scientific rationalists meeting the inherent weirdness of the 40k universe worked wonderfully.

Then the series got a bit lost and confused. There were some GREAT stories, but there were some blunders (Dark Angels, Abyss - although even the Dark Angels I've enjoyed more on re-reading).

But now it's getting interesting again. We're into previously fairly unexplored territory (what DOES Horus & Co do between Istvaan & Terra? Why does it take them so long? What happens in the main bit of the Heresy - we all know the start and the end, but the middle?), and BL have set it up wonderfully. They've got multiple narratives by their best authors, all looking at the same battles from different angles. Dan Abnett does Know No Fear, epically covering one of the few big battles we know about from the Heresy, but then ADB and others reveal that that was just a cover for Lorgar & Angron's sneaky business deeper in Ultramar. The whole Thramas Sector narrative slowly rolls out. And other ones also seem to be opening up. And they leave such massive questions in novels, only to revisit them later and they slot into place... I love it. It's mythopoesis on an excellent scale.

For me the one real downpoint at the moment is Nick Kyme. How someone can make Eldar Exodites riding dragons boring, I'll never know. Yet he does! Our few glimpses of the pre-Heresy Salamaders and the Iron Hands, utterly wasted. I have absolutely no interest in anything happening on One-Five-Four-Four.

Incidentally I enjoyed Know No Fear except for one massive thing. There's not a single moment in the whole book where power armour stops a shot. Every bolt round penetrates, there seems to be no point in wearing it except to display your rank markings and to use it as a space suit!

Agreed with most of what you said, especially about power armor doing bugger all in KNF. The descriptions of the actual fight scenes between marines was also extremely disappointing as you just don't get the feel that they are post-human super warriors.

For all their power, skill and weapons, marines of all stripes seem like die in droves and as easily as regular guardsmen. You can rewrite that story and make all marines guardsmen and their exploits and achievements would not seem unbelievable. Certainly not compared to Gaunt's bloody Ghosts.

Dan Abnett once confessed that he doesn't get Space Marines, and I think he still doesn't have a good grasp of what they are all about. He either over do it and give like Primarch-esk power levels (Brotherhood of the Snake and especially the abominable Kill Hill), or he makes them far too much like regular humans that gets killed like gimps (Know No Fear).

Abnett's strengths are his eye for detail and the way he can weave a story together and drag you in, but he just doesn't get marines and really shouldn't write fight scenes for them.

[David Blumenthal]

Agreed with most of what you said, especially about power armor doing bugger all in KNF. The descriptions of the actual fight scenes between marines was also extremely disappointing as you just don't get the feel that they are post-human super warriors.

For all their power, skill and weapons, marines of all stripes seem like die in droves and as easily as regular guardsmen. You can rewrite that story and make all marines guardsmen and their exploits and achievements would not seem unbelievable. Certainly not compared to Gaunt's bloody Ghosts.

Dan Abnett once confessed that he doesn't get Space Marines, and I think he still doesn't have a good grasp of what they are all about. He either over do it and give like Primarch-esk power levels (Brotherhood of the Snake and especially the abominable Kill Hill), or he makes them far too much like regular humans that gets killed like gimps (Know No Fear).

Abnett's strengths are his eye for detail and the way he can weave a story together and drag you in, but he just doesn't get marines and really shouldn't write fight scenes for them.

Agreed. Dan is a really good author, but can't do everything. I believe that he reaches with astartes, however (though I loved Horus Rising - go figure).

KNF just didn't sit well with me. Some great parts, but they didn't result in a net win for me. Doesn't mean that I don't like him as an author. I'll continue to read his books, if for nothing else than the characterizations.

I'm just a bit tired of the people who worship anything that he touches and won't abide even polite contradictions to this.

[Popsical]

The hh series is great. If you love the pre 40k fluff then your on a winner.
If you dont, then dont bother.
Battle for the abyss and the short iron hands story in the primarchs are utter garbage tho imo.

[energongoodie]

Battle for the abyss and the short iron hands story in the primarchs are utter garbage tho imo.

I'm a big Iron Hands fanboy and I take umbradge with anyone having a pop at my favourite chapter......but..... you are right.
That short wasn't great at all :(
Not as bad as the recent novel 'Wrath of Iron' though. That one hurt.

[Defenestratus]

The only reason I read them is that they're 40k - for the most part they are garbage. The only ones really that I enjoyed were Legion and .... thats about it... oh the word bearers one by ADB was good although not ADB's best work.

For me, the best works that BL has put out are the Night Lords Trilogies. I'm starting the third one now and I have to say that I thoroughly enjoy them.

Fear to Tread and the Emperors' Children short in Primarchs killed the HH line for me. I'm done with it unless I REALLY don't have anything to read.

I just hope that Bernard Cornwall hurries up his next Saxon Series book - same goes for GRRM.

[wittdooley]

For me, the best works that BL has put out are the Night Lords Trilogies. I'm starting the third one now and I have to say that I thoroughly enjoy them.

Really agree here. Love this trilogy. Really, really great anti-heroes.


Fear to Tread and the Emperors' Children short in Primarchs killed the HH line for me. I'm done with it unless I REALLY don't have anything to read.

Fear to Tread didn't kill it for me, it was just so disappointing. I was, quite frankly, expecting a lot more and it just fell flat. The Astartes are a bit too wooden, Swallow just sorta ends the whole "SW Kill teams within each legion" without REALLY explaning it, and the discussions between Ka'Bandha and the Tzeentch Daemon were so James Bond Villian, it was depressing.

If you know someone with a copy, I encourage you to read Brotherhood of the Storm. I quite liked how the culture of the White Scars is treated in it (though to be fair this is for much the same reason I enjoyed the anthropolgical study in Prospero Burns, so if you didn't like Prospero, you probably won't like Brotherhood) and it sheds some really interestring light on that legion.



I just hope that Bernard Cornwall hurries up his next Saxon Series book - same goes for GRRM.

I keep hoping the deal with HBO will spurn GRRM on to quicken his pace and get the final two novels written.

1356 (http://www.amazon.com/1356-A-Novel-Bernard-Cornwell/dp/0061969672/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353952252&sr=8-1&keywords=bernard+cornwell)comes out in January, but I may be able to get you a preview edition. I'll let you know.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the thing about the bolters in KNF was explained in deliverance lost.
the traitor forces had access to prototype bolt rounds (stern guard ones in M41), thats why the massacres at istvaan and calth were so one sided. this is the reason for the mk V heresy suit and the vehicle bonding studs on the armour, extra plating was bolted on to cut down the penertration of the traitor rounds.

[inquisitorsog]

Personally, I find some of the truly tangential stories to be among the best. Nemesis, Outcast Dead really caught my attention.

Beyond that, I'm among those that wish they'd just get on with it already.

Tell the main story, then leave HH around as an imprint to tell 30k stories. They've shown plenty of willingness to go back and forward in the chronology vs. the release cycle and it doesn't seem to be bothering anyone. I, for one, am actually looking forward more to what they do AFTER the siege of terra. There's easily a dozen novels that can be written about the events after the battle aboard the Vengeful Spirit. You've got the flight of the CSMs, the events of the second founding, the "departures" of the loyalist primarchs, and so on.

Meanwhile, those nice side stories can still be written afterwards. We'll still buy em, I'm sure.

[plawolf]

the thing about the bolters in KNF was explained in deliverance lost.
the traitor forces had access to prototype bolt rounds (stern guard ones in M41), thats why the massacres at istvaan and calth were so one sided. this is the reason for the mk V heresy suit and the vehicle bonding studs on the armour, extra plating was bolted on to cut down the penertration of the traitor rounds.

Elegant theory that sadly just does not fit the facts.

If Dan had actually planned it out as such and explained it as such, no one would have had any problems with that as a reason for why in his books Power Armor seems to be made out of damp tissue paper.

But the problem was that the Word Barers were getting gunned down just as easily as the smurfs, so it seems less like a clever tie-in with previous books and more like a bad grasp of the fluff, or just bad execution of fight scenes.

[Mr Mystery]

There's also the fact a warrior is never so familiar with the weak points of armour as their own protection.

When your enemy is wearing the same kit, and you have the skills of a Marine, aiming for the weak points is pretty straight forward.

Oh, and also consider the sheer volume of firepower being lobbed around....

[plawolf]

There's also the fact a warrior is never so familiar with the weak points of armour as their own protection.

When your enemy is wearing the same kit, and you have the skills of a Marine, aiming for the weak points is pretty straight forward.

Oh, and also consider the sheer volume of firepower being lobbed around....

Yet in the same book a smurf Serg was marked for censor and in line for a royal ticking off for merely suggesting that they should think about how to theoretically fight other space marines.

In addition, I cannot remember a single hint that armor were being breached through weight of fire. If that was the intention, Dan sure did a crappy job of conveying that idea to the reader. I think Dan is a good enough writer that if he had that in mind, the reader would be left in no doubt about it.

[Bob821]

The tissue paper Armour is odd as it does not really tie back to the fluff as many of us would understand it.

However... in the fluff and in a lot of black library litriture power armour changes how tough it is depending on how tough the auther needs it to be. In first and only old Dan Abnett has his ghosts killing CSM's with las guns! But at the end of Xenos (Dan again) he has 2 marines empty whole magazines of bolter fire directly in to each others chests and faces at close range and then get down to some hand to hand because it has little effect!

I agree bolter fire did seem a little two powerful in KNF but if the book went... 'Then the badies all jumped up from behind there rock and shot loads and loads of bolter rounds at the goodies but no one died.' It would have been a very long book.

And before any one says anything I know I a gifted author!

[inquisitorsog]

Yet in the same book a smurf Serg was marked for censor and in line for a royal ticking off for merely suggesting that they should think about how to theoretically fight other space marines.


And there also goes the consistency with other stories in the series. One of the short stories collection had smurfs actually engaging in war games as if they were fighting other marines. So, I'm really mystified as to why the sgt was censured other than the usual Abnett trait of ignoring any details that get in his way. Abnett can write a good read, but he's not a big one for consistency or continuity.

[dark messenger]

I am a huuuuge fan of 40k fluff, especially anything that includes the Emperor, Primarchs, etc....
But even I am almost filled with boredom on the HH series.
I've literally just now finished reading Fear to Tread and if you're a fan of BA's then it may be a good read but it took me a month to get through that book and I was left quite underwhelmed by it. Normally I'd get through a HH book in about a week and be stoked for the next one!
Swallow made the BA's surprisingly unlikeable IMO, and I'm a dedicated SM fan.

I haven't read every book in the series coz I don't have the time or money to do so but even I am of the opinion that BL aren't pulling quickly enough toward the Battle of Terra and the conclusion of the Heresy.
I like the idea of reading about how the Primarchs have their foibles as well as being all noble and heroic lords of war, but there's not enough balance on other things like; "How is Malcador managing to hold things together in the Emperor's near total absence? What about the establishment of several sectors of space in their fledgling state?" and things along those lines.
I'm not getting a feeling of the galaxy at large coming apart, neither did I get a sense of it being conquered and united in the earlier books...

I'd like to see an account of Ullanor (just what happened - it's a tale of heroism begging to be told) and the events that happen after the Heresy would go a long way to making up for the stagnation that GW have forced on players for years... But will any of this happen? I doubt it.
I can hope, but I doubt it.

[Ironwolf]

Not bored with the series be honest I still have a few books to read yet:D. I would like to see them do a novel involving the SW and DA assaulting the planet Dulan and the primarch brawl even if its just a short story. What would be cool is if they did a book just about each primach and there upbrings on their adopted home worlds and/or each of the legions founding on terra only done a few so far and they are most from traitor legions.

I am looking forward to FW HH tho but considering my main army is space wolves prolly have a awhile to wait to see my favorite primarch/legion's rules but hey more time to save;).

[Psychosplodge]

Not so much bored as annoyed with the hardbacks making my collection look odd, cause I'm assuming the paperback will be that bronze rather than the gold colour.